They're unapologetically Chaotic Evil and they say it's all just for fun and DnD isn't real life so it's fine if he kills every single NPC what should I do?
Talk with them. Then show them the door if they don't behave. OR actions have reactions. If the murderhobo gang rides into town, the town grab their shotguns um crossbows and fill them full of bolts.
If the player refuses to abandon this behavior, then the DM refuses to run the game. You should not be obligated to provide a playground for this individual's poor social graces. Don't even punish the party for it; either the player stops, the player leaves, or the game ends. No 'riding into an angry mob'; that just gives the murderhobo an excuse to continue doing what he's already doing. If talking with the player and informing him that this behavior cannot continue doesn't work, then simply refuse to DM until conditions improve.
Is this just one player or the whole group? If it's just one person, what do the other players feel about this? Remind them that even though it "isn't real life" actions will still have consequences. Like jasperrdm mentions, people acting like that will be despised and hunted by law enforcement and bounty hunters alike. The church (or equivalent) would banish them, no-one would want to hire them and there will be no way for them to level up or gain loot.
In your intervention, and this could be a group discussion for the whole table or just you and the player, "lay down the law" so to speak. Explain that D&D isn't "just about your character" it's about how that character makes their existence in a "world." Characters who go on unprovoked murderous rampages bring consequences in your game world to themselves, and likely to their party (since the party hasn't done anything about it the world will see them as complicit). I'm assuming these are new low level characters. The trail of murder is going to result in bounty hunters, peacekeepers, or maybe even entities of the Abyss or Negative Plane who were able to get entrance into the prime material plane because of his unwitting blood sacrifices against the fragile moral order of the world ... and those entities will pay tribute to the PC by annihilating them. Then turn it back on the party. Do they want to continue following this path where they "fought the law" but ultimately the law or true chaos wins? If so, the campaign is as short or long lived as you want. If they decide to better their ways, you can still have consequences for the extant options. Bounties on the CE character, the party gets run out of town as outlaws by some Magnificent 7, etc. The game isn't about breaking the world, so if a PC insists on breaking it, they buy it, so to speak.
CE does not mean full on nihilism. If the character is so pathological they can't stop from indiscrimantly killing, why would the rest of the party stick with them? Even murder cultists know there's a time and a place to indulge in that drive.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
"So, there's not really any good way to bring this up, and I'm sorry I have to, but the way you're playing your character in our D&D game is bringing the whole table down. The other players are uncomfortable, and it's really awful putting a bunch of work into this game every week only to watch the party carve it up and flush it down the drain. That's not the kind of game I want to run and it's not the kind of game anybody else wants to play. D&D may not be real life, but the time and energy we're putting into this game is real life. We're all real-life people trying to have fun and enjoy our fantasy game, and it's not working with all the unnecessary, disruptive murder. I have to ask you to try and maybe switch approaches? You can switch characters if you like, but I can't keep letting you murderhobo freely. Either that changes or we're gonna have to shut the game down."
Tell him “hey, man, I’m sorry, but when you go Chaotic Evil on the game, it makes it a lot less fun for me, because I want to play the game seriously, like Lord of the Rings. Would you be willing to cut down on the crazy, save the bloodlust for the monsters, so that the rest of us can enjoy the game more?” He should get it, at least if he’s mature enough to continue playing with. You don’t need to make it a big deal: in fact, if you do, he might get defensive and refuse to change.
They're unapologetically Chaotic Evil and they say it's all just for fun and DnD isn't real life so it's fine if he kills every single NPC what should I do?
As others have pointed out, disinvite the player to the game. Or use the MMO solution of having unfairly powerful NPCs show up and kill him (you can also have more realistic responses, but this will (a) tend to make the game bad for everyone, not just him, and (b) might be fun for the player).
I cannot disrecommend the "have NPcs flatten him/the party in the game" approach enough. It will not help.
If you let the CE fight those NPcs, you're giving him exactly what he wants. Why should he change his behavior when that behavior has gained him exactly what he's looking for, i.e. a chance to just murder NPCs without a care in the world? Sure, he loses, but he got his fight and his actions were validated.
If you just narrate someone walking up and beheading the guy, you're doing to him what he's been doing to you. That's not going to fix your game, that's going to get him pissed off and result in a fight at the table. This isn't really an in-game problem, and it doesn't merit an in-game solution.
If the NPCs also flatten the rest of the party? Then the entire group gets to pay for the CE's tomfoolery, and that will piss off and alienate the players you ostensibly would like to keep.
You'll need to have a word with the guy away from the table. It'll suck. It'll be uncomfortable, and it may well provoke a fight anyways. I've been there. Disruptive players are not usually open to discussions over their disruptive behavior. You may have to kick the guy to save your game, and if he's a close IRL buddy you may have to decide whether the game is worth possible damage to your friendship. All of that sucks ass. But it's also the only route you've really got. Killing the guy's character doesn't absolve the need for this discussion, it merely forestalls it whilst making it worse when it does happen.
Could you not be Chaotic Evil like I get that it's not real life but I put real time into it and I get it's supposed to be funny but humor can be done so many other ways that are much funnier than hehehe I shank em like try to be creative like they call you dumb so you steal their shit leave a note with big brain algebra stuff stuff only for them to go to the hiding spot and learn it was actually their feces you stole and their gold is in the museum behind the painting of the mind flayer now that's funny creative and ur not an A-hole
If the player refuses to abandon this behavior, then the DM refuses to run the game. You should not be obligated to provide a playground for this individual's poor social graces. Don't even punish the party for it; either the player stops, the player leaves, or the game ends.
^^^ This x 1000. I was going to say something similar but this is way better than what I would have written.
Why does a party in my game need to be either good or non-evil? Because I am not down with running an 'evil' game (other than maybe a one-shot). You want an evil game, find another DM.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
So there are multiple schools of thought here, but the main considerations have been kind of asked but not really expanded on?
Is this a random person? Is this a friend? Is this a friend of a friend? These are things you have to consider with your decisions. If it's a random person, and you've had the discussions with the other players at the table and they all agree with you, you aren't obligated to teach them anything. You aren't bound to be their moral compass and to inform this individual of what they are supposed to do. If it's a friend of a friend, maybe loop that friend in the conversation. You aren't invested in them, but obviously, that person is and you are invested in your friendship with that person. Maybe try to explain that it's just a fun game to run as a DM if you've had thoughts/plans into certain aspects and this person just murders everyone. If it's a friend, then you do the friend thing and have a sit-down. Explain it from your point of view, recognize that they want to have fun, and try to have a middle ground.
I think those are the biggest considerations. The social ramifications of kicking someone from a table aren't being properly explained here and they can have social repercussions far and wide in your friend circle, not just in-game. How invested are you in the person, how invested are you in the people at your table, how invested are you in your game? Take all of those three into account and start your planning.
If the player refuses to abandon this behavior, then the DM refuses to run the game. You should not be obligated to provide a playground for this individual's poor social graces. Don't even punish the party for it; either the player stops, the player leaves, or the game ends.
^^^ This x 1000. I was going to say something similar but this is way better than what I would have written.
Why does a party in my game need to be either good or non-evil? Because I am not down with running an 'evil' game (other than maybe a one-shot). You want an evil game, find another DM.
I wouldn't recommend this be your immediate course of action though. I've totally stopped running games before because of the actions of a group, but never one individual. Don't punish the table for one bad actor, unless you can't find a way to address the issue and it's harming you from a mental capacity. If that's the case then bail, your mental health is paramount to anyone else's but from a DM perspective, you do have to be considerate of the group dynamic at all times.
"Flattening" the offending PC and possible bystanders is a misnomer. It's allowing the nature of the game world to run its course. When a the CE PC attempts another random murder DM can do that "are you sure you want to do that? there are laws where you are ... or these actions could make an enemy out of your victims tribe, community, or army etc." and if the PC goes through with it and the other PCs are complicit in letting it go rather than making a stand with "we don't do that" the logic of senseless murder in your world play out. If the player doesn't like it, as mentioned the player can find a a more brutally lawless and anarchic game world to play in. Refusing to DM, especially if there are other people at the table is just too much a call back to "taking my ball or cards or game manuals and going home." DM has to be the most responsive player of the game, consequently its the PC players responsibility to play within the tonal and thematic parameters the DM is willing to entertain. It's usually a more friendly give and take, but in the instance above you have someone playing out of bounds in a way that's detrimental to game everyone else is trying to play.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
PC murders an NPC. Town guards arrive to arrest PC. PC attacks town guard. Town guard kills PC and mount his head on a pike at the edge of town as a warning to others who come into town looking to cause trouble.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
They're unapologetically Chaotic Evil and they say it's all just for fun and DnD isn't real life so it's fine if he kills every single NPC what should I do?
Talk with them. Then show them the door if they don't behave. OR actions have reactions. If the murderhobo gang rides into town, the town grab their shotguns um crossbows and fill them full of bolts.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
If the player refuses to abandon this behavior, then the DM refuses to run the game. You should not be obligated to provide a playground for this individual's poor social graces. Don't even punish the party for it; either the player stops, the player leaves, or the game ends. No 'riding into an angry mob'; that just gives the murderhobo an excuse to continue doing what he's already doing. If talking with the player and informing him that this behavior cannot continue doesn't work, then simply refuse to DM until conditions improve.
Please do not contact or message me.
Is this just one player or the whole group? If it's just one person, what do the other players feel about this? Remind them that even though it "isn't real life" actions will still have consequences. Like jasperrdm mentions, people acting like that will be despised and hunted by law enforcement and bounty hunters alike. The church (or equivalent) would banish them, no-one would want to hire them and there will be no way for them to level up or gain loot.
I know to talk to him but I’m unsure what to say
Tell them to change or they won't be allowed to play anymore.
In your intervention, and this could be a group discussion for the whole table or just you and the player, "lay down the law" so to speak. Explain that D&D isn't "just about your character" it's about how that character makes their existence in a "world." Characters who go on unprovoked murderous rampages bring consequences in your game world to themselves, and likely to their party (since the party hasn't done anything about it the world will see them as complicit). I'm assuming these are new low level characters. The trail of murder is going to result in bounty hunters, peacekeepers, or maybe even entities of the Abyss or Negative Plane who were able to get entrance into the prime material plane because of his unwitting blood sacrifices against the fragile moral order of the world ... and those entities will pay tribute to the PC by annihilating them. Then turn it back on the party. Do they want to continue following this path where they "fought the law" but ultimately the law or true chaos wins? If so, the campaign is as short or long lived as you want. If they decide to better their ways, you can still have consequences for the extant options. Bounties on the CE character, the party gets run out of town as outlaws by some Magnificent 7, etc. The game isn't about breaking the world, so if a PC insists on breaking it, they buy it, so to speak.
CE does not mean full on nihilism. If the character is so pathological they can't stop from indiscrimantly killing, why would the rest of the party stick with them? Even murder cultists know there's a time and a place to indulge in that drive.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
"Hey. I need to talk to you, buddy."
"So, there's not really any good way to bring this up, and I'm sorry I have to, but the way you're playing your character in our D&D game is bringing the whole table down. The other players are uncomfortable, and it's really awful putting a bunch of work into this game every week only to watch the party carve it up and flush it down the drain. That's not the kind of game I want to run and it's not the kind of game anybody else wants to play. D&D may not be real life, but the time and energy we're putting into this game is real life. We're all real-life people trying to have fun and enjoy our fantasy game, and it's not working with all the unnecessary, disruptive murder. I have to ask you to try and maybe switch approaches? You can switch characters if you like, but I can't keep letting you murderhobo freely. Either that changes or we're gonna have to shut the game down."
Please do not contact or message me.
Tell him “hey, man, I’m sorry, but when you go Chaotic Evil on the game, it makes it a lot less fun for me, because I want to play the game seriously, like Lord of the Rings. Would you be willing to cut down on the crazy, save the bloodlust for the monsters, so that the rest of us can enjoy the game more?” He should get it, at least if he’s mature enough to continue playing with. You don’t need to make it a big deal: in fact, if you do, he might get defensive and refuse to change.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
As others have pointed out, disinvite the player to the game. Or use the MMO solution of having unfairly powerful NPCs show up and kill him (you can also have more realistic responses, but this will (a) tend to make the game bad for everyone, not just him, and (b) might be fun for the player).
I cannot disrecommend the "have NPcs flatten him/the party in the game" approach enough. It will not help.
If you let the CE fight those NPcs, you're giving him exactly what he wants. Why should he change his behavior when that behavior has gained him exactly what he's looking for, i.e. a chance to just murder NPCs without a care in the world? Sure, he loses, but he got his fight and his actions were validated.
If you just narrate someone walking up and beheading the guy, you're doing to him what he's been doing to you. That's not going to fix your game, that's going to get him pissed off and result in a fight at the table. This isn't really an in-game problem, and it doesn't merit an in-game solution.
If the NPCs also flatten the rest of the party? Then the entire group gets to pay for the CE's tomfoolery, and that will piss off and alienate the players you ostensibly would like to keep.
You'll need to have a word with the guy away from the table. It'll suck. It'll be uncomfortable, and it may well provoke a fight anyways. I've been there. Disruptive players are not usually open to discussions over their disruptive behavior. You may have to kick the guy to save your game, and if he's a close IRL buddy you may have to decide whether the game is worth possible damage to your friendship. All of that sucks ass. But it's also the only route you've really got. Killing the guy's character doesn't absolve the need for this discussion, it merely forestalls it whilst making it worse when it does happen.
Please do not contact or message me.
Sent them this:
Could you not be Chaotic Evil like I get that it's not real life but I put real time into it and I get it's supposed to be funny but humor can be done so many other ways that are much funnier than hehehe I shank em like try to be creative like they call you dumb so you steal their shit leave a note with big brain algebra stuff stuff only for them to go to the hiding spot and learn it was actually their feces you stole and their gold is in the museum behind the painting of the mind flayer now that's funny creative and ur not an A-hole
^^^ This x 1000. I was going to say something similar but this is way better than what I would have written.
Why does a party in my game need to be either good or non-evil? Because I am not down with running an 'evil' game (other than maybe a one-shot). You want an evil game, find another DM.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
So there are multiple schools of thought here, but the main considerations have been kind of asked but not really expanded on?
Is this a random person? Is this a friend? Is this a friend of a friend? These are things you have to consider with your decisions. If it's a random person, and you've had the discussions with the other players at the table and they all agree with you, you aren't obligated to teach them anything. You aren't bound to be their moral compass and to inform this individual of what they are supposed to do. If it's a friend of a friend, maybe loop that friend in the conversation. You aren't invested in them, but obviously, that person is and you are invested in your friendship with that person. Maybe try to explain that it's just a fun game to run as a DM if you've had thoughts/plans into certain aspects and this person just murders everyone. If it's a friend, then you do the friend thing and have a sit-down. Explain it from your point of view, recognize that they want to have fun, and try to have a middle ground.
I think those are the biggest considerations. The social ramifications of kicking someone from a table aren't being properly explained here and they can have social repercussions far and wide in your friend circle, not just in-game. How invested are you in the person, how invested are you in the people at your table, how invested are you in your game? Take all of those three into account and start your planning.
I wouldn't recommend this be your immediate course of action though. I've totally stopped running games before because of the actions of a group, but never one individual. Don't punish the table for one bad actor, unless you can't find a way to address the issue and it's harming you from a mental capacity. If that's the case then bail, your mental health is paramount to anyone else's but from a DM perspective, you do have to be considerate of the group dynamic at all times.
"Flattening" the offending PC and possible bystanders is a misnomer. It's allowing the nature of the game world to run its course. When a the CE PC attempts another random murder DM can do that "are you sure you want to do that? there are laws where you are ... or these actions could make an enemy out of your victims tribe, community, or army etc." and if the PC goes through with it and the other PCs are complicit in letting it go rather than making a stand with "we don't do that" the logic of senseless murder in your world play out. If the player doesn't like it, as mentioned the player can find a a more brutally lawless and anarchic game world to play in. Refusing to DM, especially if there are other people at the table is just too much a call back to "taking my ball or cards or game manuals and going home." DM has to be the most responsive player of the game, consequently its the PC players responsibility to play within the tonal and thematic parameters the DM is willing to entertain. It's usually a more friendly give and take, but in the instance above you have someone playing out of bounds in a way that's detrimental to game everyone else is trying to play.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I hope I never have to deal with a player like this. Put some thought and creativity to your evilness.
If you don't want to run that kind of game, explain it to the table. If they have a problem with it, that's fine. Someone else can DM it.
PC murders an NPC. Town guards arrive to arrest PC. PC attacks town guard. Town guard kills PC and mount his head on a pike at the edge of town as a warning to others who come into town looking to cause trouble.
Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Anzio Faro. Lvl 5 Prot. Aasimar Light Cleric.
So did anyone notice I sent him a text about it?
Yeah, how did it go? I honestly couldn't follow the end about caves and gold paintings.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.