This is only tangentially related to the original topic at best, but: a shield that's strapped to an arm and can barely be manipulated through wrist or hand movements is a Finesse weapon? And on top of being a weapon it gives all the benefits of a regular 6lb shield while being Light, with the heaviest other Light weapon weighing only half as much?
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Historical viking shields dont get strapped to the arm. They are held in the fist like a buckler.
The wood is extremely thin (less than a cm, from about 0.8 near center and tapering to 0.5 near edges), and is glued onto the leather covering. The leather is as much part of its armoring as the wood. The wood is mainly to support the shape of the leather. The metal buckler-like hub (the boss) is what deflects incoming hits. It requires agility like a buckler does. To deflect missiles, from arrows and spears, the shield is held at an angle to deflect it, not to absorb it.
The 1d4 damage is modest, and realistic.
Unlike a parrying dagger that deals 1d4 damage, the viking shield requires shield proficiency to benefit from the AC improvement.
Bucklers shouldn't give the same AC benefit as regular shields, but let's say I let that slide. The damage isn't really the issue, particularly since a weapon's base damage being a couple of points lower than others becomes largely meaningless with higher levels - the issue is that it can provide an extra attack while also giving an AC bonus.
Which (5E) parrying dagger are you talking about?
edit: as an aside, would viking shield proficiency be entirely separate from regular shield proficiency for classes who are normally proficient with shields?
The way I am "translating" the viking shield into mechanics, it requires two separate proficiencies: a shield proficiency to benefit from its AC shield bonus, and a martial weapon proficiency to benefit (properly) from its aggressive use. It obviously takes significant training to use this item effectively.
The way I am "translating" the viking shield into mechanics, it requires two separate proficiencies: a shield proficiency to benefit from its AC shield bonus, and a martial weapon proficiency to benefit (properly) from its aggressive use. It obviously takes significant training to use this item effectively.
It just gets weird, particularly in the context of the rest of the 5E ruleset. For instance, presumably when a fighter (obviously with both proficiencies) and the Dueling Fighting Style uses one, they a) they get the Dueling bonus when not attacking with it but not when they do? And b) get the AC bonus regardless? Or would getting the AC bonus constitute “wielding” so they’d have to choose between that and the Dueling bonus? Or is ‘wielding’ one as a shield different from ‘wielding’ one as a weapon? Also, shields fall under armor proficiencies. Any armor - including shields - you use without proficiency still gives you its full AC benefit, but imposes Disadvantage on a bunch of things and prevents spellcasting altogether. Yet this particular item doesn’t give an AC benefit without proficiency? It’s also completely unique in that its full use requires two proficiencies (no other item in the game has this), which gets absurd because it requires specifying if someone has viking shield shield proficiency (included in general shield proficiency), viking shield weapon proficiency (included in martial weapon proficiency) or both. And it’s a Light and Finesse bludgeoning weapon - that makes it unique in another way as well, since there are no other bludgeoning Finesse weapons (which to me appears to be a deliberate decision). Way of the Kensei monks could learn to use one of these as a monk weapon, but not gain the AC bonus. I assume it counts as a shield as well, even you classed it as a weapon with a special rule (this would mean you could benefit from Shield Master with one)? Or does it get around the Unarmored Defense requirement? Pact of the Blade warlocks, do they get both types of proficiency if they have one as their pact weapon?
I get that rulesets have special rules that override general rules, but this just feels too exotic. Particularly for a general use item, this is not a class ability or a magical quality or something else that’s specific enough to warrant a specific rule.
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For instance, presumably when a fighter (obviously with both proficiencies)
and the Dueling Fighting Style uses one, they a) they get the Dueling bonus when not attacking with it but not when they do? And b) get the AC bonus regardless? Or would getting the AC bonus constitute “wielding” so they’d have to choose between that and the Dueling bonus? Or is ‘wielding’ one as a shield different from ‘wielding’ one as a weapon?
Also, shields fall under armor proficiencies. Any armor - including shields - you use without proficiency still gives you its full AC benefit, but imposes Disadvantage on a bunch of things and prevents spellcasting altogether. Yet this particular item doesn’t give an AC benefit without proficiency?
It’s also completely unique in that its full use requires two proficiencies (no other item in the game has this), which gets absurd because it requires specifying if someone has viking shield shield proficiency (included in general shield proficiency), viking shield weapon proficiency (included in martial weapon proficiency) or both.
And it’s a Light and Finesse bludgeoning weapon - that makes it unique in another way as well, since there are no other bludgeoning Finesse weapons (which to me appears to be a deliberate decision).
Way of the Kensei monks could learn to use one of these as a monk weapon, but not gain the AC bonus. I assume it counts as a shield as well, even you classed it as a weapon with a special rule (this would mean you could benefit from Shield Master with one)? Or does it get around the Unarmored Defense requirement?
Pact of the Blade warlocks, do they get both types of proficiency if they have one as their pact weapon?
I get that rulesets have special rules that override general rules, but this just feels too exotic. Particularly for a general use item, this is not a class ability or a magical quality or something else that’s specific enough to warrant a specific rule.
I appreciate your scrutinizing the mechanical implications!
I meant, the viking shield requires the standard shield proficiency. So any Fighter, and anyone else with a shield proficiency, can use the viking shield as a normal shield, thus gain its +2 AC bonus.
So, any feature that benefits from using a shield, also benefits from using a viking shield as normal.
When classed as an item in the weapons list, its special property is that it can additionally function as a normal shield.
To wield the viking shield as a weapon proficiently requires a martial weapon proficiency.
The viking shield interacts with other rules normally, whether as a shield or as a weapon.
The viking shield synergizes less well for the Duelist fighting style. The Fighter cannot in the same turn, both use the shield as an offhand weapon and gain the Duelist damage bonus to the mainhand weapon. But the Duelist can alternate each turn, sometimes focusing on the mainhand for the extra damage, and other times adding the offhand damage instead.
Note, the Protection fighting style and the Two-Weapon fighting style synergize well with the viking shield.
The viking shield is less useful to a Monk. First, the Monk needs to acquire both a shield proficiency and additionally a martial weapon proficiency. Hypothetically, a human level 1 Monk uses the feat to gain a shield proficiency, and swaps out the shortsword for proficiency with the viking shield. The viking shield functions as a normal shield. The wording of the Monk Unarmored Defense feature forces the Monk to be "not wielding a shield". Thus even if the Monk is carrying a shield of any kind, the Monk cannot benefit from its AC bonus.
The Hexblade Warlock gains proficiency with shield and all martial weapons, therefore can use a viking shield. The Hex Warrior feature applies normally. If the Warlock chooses the viking shield as the weapon, then the Hex Warrior feature can make its attack using Charisma instead of Strength or Dexterity.
Dont forget: to make an offhand attack requires a Bonus Action. So, this is an opportunity cost that might not synergize with other features that require a Bonus Action.
There are no special rules for the viking shield. It is only unusual in that one can wield it as a weapon, while continuing to benefit from its use as a shield.
I don’t quite agree there are no special rules involved. Again, no other shield or piece of armor requires proficiency to give an AC bonus (and they all impose penalties for non-proficiency). No other items go on both the armor and the weapons table either, improvised ones notwithstanding. That said, whatever works for your game goes for your game.
I was not referencing the Hexblade, btw, but rather the Pact of the Blade warlock from the PHB. Hexblade warlocks get full proficiencies, Pact of the Blade warlocks only get proficiency with their Pact weapon (aside from the ones the basic class provides, of course) regardless of the form it takes.
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I don’t quite agree there are no special rules involved. Again, no other shield or piece of armor requires proficiency to give an AC bonus (and they all impose penalties for non-proficiency). No other items go on both the armor and the weapons table either, improvised ones notwithstanding. That said, whatever works for your game goes for your game
There seems to be a miscommunication.
To be clear. You dont need a proficiency to gain the shield bonus from a viking shield. It is a normal shield. You do need a shield bonus to use the shield proficiently. It is a normal shield.
I was not referencing the Hexblade, btw, but rather the Pact of the Blade warlock from the PHB. Hexblade warlocks get full proficiencies, Pact of the Blade warlocks only get proficiency with their Pact weapon (aside from the ones the basic class provides, of course) regardless of the form it takes.
In the case of a Blade-Pact Warlock, the Warlock is proficient with it as a weapon (adds the proficiency bonus to the attack roll), but remains nonproficient with shields (thus suffers disadvantage to Strength and Dexterity rolls and cannot cast spells). However, if the Blade-Pact Warlock swaps out the light armor proficiency and gains shield proficiency instead, or gets shield proficiency from a feat, then both proficiencies are in play.
To be clear. You dont need a proficiency to gain the shield bonus from a viking shield. It is a normal shield. You do need a shield bonus to use the shield proficiently. It is a normal shield.
To be clear, you said previously: "I meant, the viking shield requires the standard shield proficiency. So any Fighter, and anyone else with a shield proficiency, can use the viking shield as a normal shield, thus gain its +2 AC bonus."
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To be clear. You dont need a proficiency to gain the shield bonus from a viking shield. It is a normal shield. You do need a shield bonus to use the shield proficiently. It is a normal shield.
To be clear, you said previously: "I meant, the viking shield requires the standard shield proficiency. So any Fighter, and anyone else with a shield proficiency, can use the viking shield as a normal shield, thus gain its +2 AC bonus."
I see how you can read it that way.
I have never seen a character wear nonproficient armor. Heh, especially because I tend to play mages, to do so is unthinkable. In my mind, to not be proficient means to not wear it.
So, modifying the proficiencies of the Swashbuckler can make a historical Viking.
Having a feel for proficiencies also helps when customizing a race. Besides the swapping proficiencies of a Players Handbook race, Tashas will allow creating a race from scratch. A race can have a +2 ability score improvement, a feat, and a choice between Darkvision or a skill proficiency.
How much is Darkvision worth? Its stealth potential probably makes it better than a Light cantrip. Possibly, Darkvision is worth two skills. If you can choose between either Darkvision or an armor upgrade, probably you would prefer the armor upgrade? But Darkvision is nice, and there are situations like high Dexterity that make an armor upgrade less valuable. So, both Darkvision and an armor upgrade seem roughly comparable in value, worth about two skill proficiencies. So to swap Darkvision for one skill proficiency seems to be trading down, but there are times when this is worth it. In sum, when designing a race, it seems safe for balance to swap the Darkvision for a skill, cantrip, weapon, or tool.
Moreover, when deciding on a feat, it can involve various kinds of proficiencies.
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he / him
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This is only tangentially related to the original topic at best, but: a shield that's strapped to an arm and can barely be manipulated through wrist or hand movements is a Finesse weapon? And on top of being a weapon it gives all the benefits of a regular 6lb shield while being Light, with the heaviest other Light weapon weighing only half as much?
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Historical viking shields dont get strapped to the arm. They are held in the fist like a buckler.
The wood is extremely thin (less than a cm, from about 0.8 near center and tapering to 0.5 near edges), and is glued onto the leather covering. The leather is as much part of its armoring as the wood. The wood is mainly to support the shape of the leather. The metal buckler-like hub (the boss) is what deflects incoming hits. It requires agility like a buckler does. To deflect missiles, from arrows and spears, the shield is held at an angle to deflect it, not to absorb it.
The 1d4 damage is modest, and realistic.
Unlike a parrying dagger that deals 1d4 damage, the viking shield requires shield proficiency to benefit from the AC improvement.
he / him
Bucklers shouldn't give the same AC benefit as regular shields, but let's say I let that slide. The damage isn't really the issue, particularly since a weapon's base damage being a couple of points lower than others becomes largely meaningless with higher levels - the issue is that it can provide an extra attack while also giving an AC bonus.
Which (5E) parrying dagger are you talking about?
edit: as an aside, would viking shield proficiency be entirely separate from regular shield proficiency for classes who are normally proficient with shields?
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
The way I am "translating" the viking shield into mechanics, it requires two separate proficiencies: a shield proficiency to benefit from its AC shield bonus, and a martial weapon proficiency to benefit (properly) from its aggressive use. It obviously takes significant training to use this item effectively.
he / him
It just gets weird, particularly in the context of the rest of the 5E ruleset. For instance, presumably when a fighter (obviously with both proficiencies) and the Dueling Fighting Style uses one, they a) they get the Dueling bonus when not attacking with it but not when they do? And b) get the AC bonus regardless? Or would getting the AC bonus constitute “wielding” so they’d have to choose between that and the Dueling bonus? Or is ‘wielding’ one as a shield different from ‘wielding’ one as a weapon? Also, shields fall under armor proficiencies. Any armor - including shields - you use without proficiency still gives you its full AC benefit, but imposes Disadvantage on a bunch of things and prevents spellcasting altogether. Yet this particular item doesn’t give an AC benefit without proficiency? It’s also completely unique in that its full use requires two proficiencies (no other item in the game has this), which gets absurd because it requires specifying if someone has viking shield shield proficiency (included in general shield proficiency), viking shield weapon proficiency (included in martial weapon proficiency) or both. And it’s a Light and Finesse bludgeoning weapon - that makes it unique in another way as well, since there are no other bludgeoning Finesse weapons (which to me appears to be a deliberate decision). Way of the Kensei monks could learn to use one of these as a monk weapon, but not gain the AC bonus. I assume it counts as a shield as well, even you classed it as a weapon with a special rule (this would mean you could benefit from Shield Master with one)? Or does it get around the Unarmored Defense requirement? Pact of the Blade warlocks, do they get both types of proficiency if they have one as their pact weapon?
I get that rulesets have special rules that override general rules, but this just feels too exotic. Particularly for a general use item, this is not a class ability or a magical quality or something else that’s specific enough to warrant a specific rule.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I appreciate your scrutinizing the mechanical implications!
I meant, the viking shield requires the standard shield proficiency. So any Fighter, and anyone else with a shield proficiency, can use the viking shield as a normal shield, thus gain its +2 AC bonus.
So, any feature that benefits from using a shield, also benefits from using a viking shield as normal.
When classed as an item in the weapons list, its special property is that it can additionally function as a normal shield.
To wield the viking shield as a weapon proficiently requires a martial weapon proficiency.
The viking shield interacts with other rules normally, whether as a shield or as a weapon.
The viking shield synergizes less well for the Duelist fighting style. The Fighter cannot in the same turn, both use the shield as an offhand weapon and gain the Duelist damage bonus to the mainhand weapon. But the Duelist can alternate each turn, sometimes focusing on the mainhand for the extra damage, and other times adding the offhand damage instead.
Note, the Protection fighting style and the Two-Weapon fighting style synergize well with the viking shield.
The viking shield is less useful to a Monk. First, the Monk needs to acquire both a shield proficiency and additionally a martial weapon proficiency. Hypothetically, a human level 1 Monk uses the feat to gain a shield proficiency, and swaps out the shortsword for proficiency with the viking shield. The viking shield functions as a normal shield. The wording of the Monk Unarmored Defense feature forces the Monk to be "not wielding a shield". Thus even if the Monk is carrying a shield of any kind, the Monk cannot benefit from its AC bonus.
The Hexblade Warlock gains proficiency with shield and all martial weapons, therefore can use a viking shield. The Hex Warrior feature applies normally. If the Warlock chooses the viking shield as the weapon, then the Hex Warrior feature can make its attack using Charisma instead of Strength or Dexterity.
Dont forget: to make an offhand attack requires a Bonus Action. So, this is an opportunity cost that might not synergize with other features that require a Bonus Action.
There are no special rules for the viking shield. It is only unusual in that one can wield it as a weapon, while continuing to benefit from its use as a shield.
he / him
I don’t quite agree there are no special rules involved. Again, no other shield or piece of armor requires proficiency to give an AC bonus (and they all impose penalties for non-proficiency). No other items go on both the armor and the weapons table either, improvised ones notwithstanding. That said, whatever works for your game goes for your game.
I was not referencing the Hexblade, btw, but rather the Pact of the Blade warlock from the PHB. Hexblade warlocks get full proficiencies, Pact of the Blade warlocks only get proficiency with their Pact weapon (aside from the ones the basic class provides, of course) regardless of the form it takes.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
There seems to be a miscommunication.
To be clear. You dont need a proficiency to gain the shield bonus from a viking shield. It is a normal shield. You do need a shield bonus to use the shield proficiently. It is a normal shield.
he / him
In the case of a Blade-Pact Warlock, the Warlock is proficient with it as a weapon (adds the proficiency bonus to the attack roll), but remains nonproficient with shields (thus suffers disadvantage to Strength and Dexterity rolls and cannot cast spells). However, if the Blade-Pact Warlock swaps out the light armor proficiency and gains shield proficiency instead, or gets shield proficiency from a feat, then both proficiencies are in play.
he / him
To be clear, you said previously: "I meant, the viking shield requires the standard shield proficiency. So any Fighter, and anyone else with a shield proficiency, can use the viking shield as a normal shield, thus gain its +2 AC bonus."
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I see how you can read it that way.
I have never seen a character wear nonproficient armor. Heh, especially because I tend to play mages, to do so is unthinkable. In my mind, to not be proficient means to not wear it.
he / him
So, modifying the proficiencies of the Swashbuckler can make a historical Viking.
Having a feel for proficiencies also helps when customizing a race. Besides the swapping proficiencies of a Players Handbook race, Tashas will allow creating a race from scratch. A race can have a +2 ability score improvement, a feat, and a choice between Darkvision or a skill proficiency.
How much is Darkvision worth? Its stealth potential probably makes it better than a Light cantrip. Possibly, Darkvision is worth two skills. If you can choose between either Darkvision or an armor upgrade, probably you would prefer the armor upgrade? But Darkvision is nice, and there are situations like high Dexterity that make an armor upgrade less valuable. So, both Darkvision and an armor upgrade seem roughly comparable in value, worth about two skill proficiencies. So to swap Darkvision for one skill proficiency seems to be trading down, but there are times when this is worth it. In sum, when designing a race, it seems safe for balance to swap the Darkvision for a skill, cantrip, weapon, or tool.
Moreover, when deciding on a feat, it can involve various kinds of proficiencies.
he / him