This has led to atrocities throughout the ages, and will not be part of a game I am playing. "That whole group is evil, so we are allowed to do whatever we want to them" is a horrific viewpoint to take, and is a path to Evil in itself.
DnD is meant to be not!Medieval anyways. That kind of thinking is pretty much how people operated before modernity, so I say it fits into the setting perfectly. Judging entirely justified xenophobia of the medieval society from the comfortable safety of modern society is such a hypocricy...
Bessides chances are those goblins also took that land by force and killed everyone who lived there before them.
This is where I have a problem. You can play it that way if you like, but to me this is horrific. You have decided to take that land away from the people who live there, and are happy to commit genocide to do so. This is an Evil act, even if those you are removing from their home are Evil.
This is without considering the ramifications of encouraging people to view an entire group as Evil. This has led to atrocities throughout the ages, and will not be part of a game I am playing. "That whole group is evil, so we are allowed to do whatever we want to them" is a horrific viewpoint to take, and is a path to Evil in itself.
Well, you'd be wrong because the co-creator of the game gave a perfect example of just what Lawful Good means. Thus spake Gygax:
"Paladins are not stupid, and in general there is no rule of Lawful Good against killing enemies. The old adage about nits making lice applies. Also, as I have often noted, a paladin can freely dispatch prisoners of Evil alignment that have surrendered and renounced that alignment in favor of Lawful Good. They are then sent on to their reward before they can backslide.
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is by no means anything but Lawful and Good. Prisoners guilty of murder or similar capital crimes can be executed without violating any precept of the alignment. Hanging is likely the usual method of such execution, although it might be beheading, strangulation, etc. A paladin is likely a figure that would be considered a fair judge of criminal conduct.
The Anglo-Saxon punishment for **** and/or murder of a woman was as follows: tearing off of the scalp, cutting off of the ears and nose, blinding, chopping off of the feet and hands, and leaving the criminal beside the road for all bypassers to see. I don't know if they cauterized the limb stumps or not before doing that. It was said that a woman and child could walk the length and breadth of England without fear of molestation then...
Chivington might have been quoted as saying "nits make lice," but he is certainly not the first one to make such an observation as it is an observable fact. If you have read the account of wooden Leg, a warrior of the Cheyenne tribe that fought against Custer et al., he dispassionately noted killing an enemy squaw for the reason in question.
I am not going to waste my time and yours debating ethics and philosophy. I will state unequivocally that in the alignment system as presented in OAD&D, an eye for an eye is lawful and just, Lawful Good, as misconduct is to be punished under just laws.
Lawful Neutrality countenances malign laws. Lawful Good does not.
Mercy is to be displayed for the lawbreaker that does so by accident. Benevolence is for the harmless. Pacifism in the fantasy milieu is for those who would be slaves. They have no place in determining general alignment, albeit justice tempered by mercy is a NG manifestation, whilst well-considered benevolence is generally a mark of Good."
Being merciful to Goblins is idiotic. They're Goblins and they're Evil. They routinely engage in pillaging, murder, rapine and destruction of settlements of humans & demihumans. D&D is not 4-Color Heroism. Go play Champions if you want that kind of game.
Just going to point out this thread appears to have got wildly off topic, departing from the region of 'what would be less pejorative names for X' and into an esoteric discussion of ethics and morality within various regions of fantasy.
Please keep things on topic; if you discover a new, interesting topic you want to discuss, please start a new thread.
Some people must not have any fun playing this great game.
Exactly. If people wonder why us older fans become exasperated nowadays, one needs only to pay attention to the discourses going on about OUR game. I mean, if Halfling is offensive because of being "Half a man", then Kender can't be used either since it came DIRECTLY from the German word "Kinder", meaning Children.
Here's a handy-dandy NOT OFFENSIVE guide to renaming your fantasy races (from the Flan language), courtesy of D&D co-creator E. Gary Gygax: Elf = Olve Dwarf = Dwur Gnome = Noniz Halfling = Hobniz Goblin = Jebli Hobgoblin = High Jebline Kobold = Celbit Ork = Euroz Ogre = Eiger Gnoll = Kell Bugbear = Buheer Norker = Noblink Giant = Jialt
You're welcome.
Considering that these are still exonyms, this doesn't actually address the OP's question about endonyms for these races. 🤷♂️
I have to say this discussion seems largely academic. Dwarves are called Dwarves by Humans in the Common language. What do Dwarfs call themselves in their own language of Dwarvish? Do they call themselves Dwarves? What do Halflings call themselves in the Halfling language? It seems like you've completely ignored that angle.
It would be whatever the Dwarven word for Dwarf would be. In Tolkien's world it's Khazâd and since D&D Dwarves are based off Tolkienien Dwarves it wouldn't be a stretch to apply the same language at a table as Tolkien especially considering he went so far as to actually create one. In official written content that would be much harder due to legal reasons.
Funny enough, the Forgotten Realms has endonyms for both halflings and elves, but to my knowledge there's isn't one for dwarves.
According to the Forgotten Realms wiki the Dwarvish word for "Dwarf" is "Dwar".
Apparently this comes from an old Dragon Magazine article called "A Dwarven Lexicon"
I have to say this discussion seems largely academic. Dwarves are called Dwarves by Humans in the Common language. What do Dwarfs call themselves in their own language of Dwarvish? Do they call themselves Dwarves? What do Halflings call themselves in the Halfling language? It seems like you've completely ignored that angle.
It would be whatever the Dwarven word for Dwarf would be. In Tolkien's world it's Khazâd and since D&D Dwarves are based off Tolkienien Dwarves it wouldn't be a stretch to apply the same language at a table as Tolkien especially considering he went so far as to actually create one. In official written content that would be much harder due to legal reasons.
Funny enough, the Forgotten Realms has endonyms for both halflings and elves, but to my knowledge there's isn't one for dwarves.
According to the Forgotten Realms wiki the Dwarvish word for "Dwarf" is "Dwar".
Apparently this comes from an old Dragon Magazine article called "A Dwarven Lexicon"
Tolkien has King Théoden of Rohan say "the Halflings, that some among us call the Holbytlan". Tolkien set out a fictional etymology for the word "hobbit" in an appendix to The Lord of the Rings, that it was derived from holbytla (plural holbytlan), meaning "hole-builder". This was Tolkien's own new construction from Old Englishhol, "a hole or hollow", and bytlan, "to build".
The minority plural dwarves was recorded as early as 1818. However, it was later popularized by the fiction of philologist and legendarium author J. R. R. Tolkien, originating as a hypercorrective mistake. It was employed by Tolkien since some time before 1917.
Regarding his use of this plural, Tolkien wrote in 1937, "I am afraid it is just a piece of private bad grammar, rather shocking in a philologist; but I shall have to go with it".
How do you think POC might feel, being faced with Drow, who're dark-skinned because they are evil ...?
They're not black skinned because they're evil. They're black skinned because they adapted to the strange radiations of the underworld and it allowed them to camouflage themselves. Its why their Elven Cloak & Boots are black and why their mail armor is made of adamantine, that is also black in color.
Uh, so why the white hair? That pretty much destroys any attempt of camouflage.
Cripes, does no one do ANY research anymore? Their hair, assuming the hood of their Elven cloak were pulled down, would blend in with the background colors....
From D3: Vault of the Drow
Special Note: Colors will be non-normal under the strange light of the stony Drow "heavens". Those with normal visual capabilities will see only in blacks and grays with bluish tinges. Those with infravision will see blues and purples as well as dull reds. All yellows appear green. With ultravision, all colors glow, scintillate, and are breathtaking. As referee, feel free to give any color you believe reasonable for monsters with distinctive coloration, i.e.indigo worm, lavender trolls, puce bugbears, etc.
How do you think POC might feel, being faced with Drow, who're dark-skinned because they are evil ...?
They're not black skinned because they're evil. They're black skinned because they adapted to the strange radiations of the underworld and it allowed them to camouflage themselves. Its why their Elven Cloak & Boots are black and why their mail armor is made of adamantine, that is also black in color.
Uh, so why the white hair? That pretty much destroys any attempt of camouflage.
Skin colours aside, black (particularly in western cultures) has plenty of connotations of evil, death, mystery, terror and so on, especially when contrasted with white. Black is the colour of mourning. It’s the colour of witches’ attire. Black cats are bad luck. The White Knight is the good one, the Black Knight is evil (same with cowboy hats). Light vs Dark - darkness is scary. Darkness is decay, is negation, is what must be kept at bay, is where death and danger lie in ambush. White Magic is life-affirming, Black Magic is dangerous and used for nefarious purposes.
I’m sure all sorts of logic-based arguments can be made why Drow skin became black (or various tones close to black, at least), but I’m also fairly confident they were created as Dark Elves by Gygax because of all that is evoked culturally by such a description. They were literally described as “as dark as fairies are bright”.
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Cripes, does no one do ANY research anymore? Their hair, assuming the hood of their Elven cloak were pulled down, would blend in with the background colors....
So, their white hair is an adaption to wearing their hoods pulled down? Okaaaay.
From D3: Vault of the Drow
Special Note: Colors will be non-normal under the strange light of the stony Drow "heavens". Those with normal visual capabilities will see only in blacks and grays with bluish tinges. Those with infravision will see blues and purples as well as dull reds. All yellows appear green. With ultravision, all colors glow, scintillate, and are breathtaking. As referee, feel free to give any color you believe reasonable for monsters with distinctive coloration, i.e.indigo worm, lavender trolls, puce bugbears, etc.
Even if this wren't solely applicable to the eponymous Vault (and not to the underdark in general), this would still be irrelevant to the drow's supposed "addaptions".
Cripes, does no one do ANY research anymore? Their hair, assuming the hood of their Elven cloak were pulled down, would blend in with the background colors....
So, their white hair is an adaption to wearing their hoods pulled down? Okaaaay.
From D3: Vault of the Drow
Special Note: Colors will be non-normal under the strange light of the stony Drow "heavens". Those with normal visual capabilities will see only in blacks and grays with bluish tinges. Those with infravision will see blues and purples as well as dull reds. All yellows appear green. With ultravision, all colors glow, scintillate, and are breathtaking. As referee, feel free to give any color you believe reasonable for monsters with distinctive coloration, i.e.indigo worm, lavender trolls, puce bugbears, etc.
Even if this wren't solely applicable to the eponymous Vault (and not to the underdark in general), this would still be irrelevant to the drow's supposed "addaptions".
Okay, smart guy, why DID the Drow develop inky black skin that just happened to allow them to completely blend in with their natural surroundings? Cause it wasn't cause they were Evil or Cursed. They were Evil BEFORE they fled underground and inky-black skin wouldn't do them much good on the surface.
Cripes, does no one do ANY research anymore? Their hair, assuming the hood of their Elven cloak were pulled down, would blend in with the background colors....
So, their white hair is an adaption to wearing their hoods pulled down? Okaaaay.
From D3: Vault of the Drow
Special Note: Colors will be non-normal under the strange light of the stony Drow "heavens". Those with normal visual capabilities will see only in blacks and grays with bluish tinges. Those with infravision will see blues and purples as well as dull reds. All yellows appear green. With ultravision, all colors glow, scintillate, and are breathtaking. As referee, feel free to give any color you believe reasonable for monsters with distinctive coloration, i.e.indigo worm, lavender trolls, puce bugbears, etc.
Even if this wren't solely applicable to the eponymous Vault (and not to the underdark in general), this would still be irrelevant to the drow's supposed "addaptions".
Okay, smart guy, why DID the Drow develop inky black skin that just happened to allow them to completely blend in with their natural surroundings? Cause it wasn't cause they were Evil or Cursed. They were Evil BEFORE they fled underground and inky-black skin wouldn't do them much good on the surface.
It's been way too long since my first experiences with Drow so I honestly don't remember; is there any source that says they did not have dark skin before being driven underground?
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I believe the Drow were based off the Dokkalfar/Svartalfar while their fairer skinned cousins were based off the Ljosalfar, if memory serves.
In the Forgotten Realms, though, the Drow, previously known as the Ssri-TelíQuessir to other elves, lived above ground. They were referred to as "Dark Elves" because of their worship of evil gods (ie. Ghaunadaur, Vhaeraun,and Lolth). At the end of the Crown War, Corellon transformed them into what they are now and they were banished to the Underdark. It's not so much that they "evolved" to have dark skin, it was forced upon them by deific magics.
Check out "Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark" for more information if you're interested.
The drow once lived in the Lands of Light alongside their fairer kindred, where they were known to elves as the Ssri-TelíQuessir. The dark elves, a term more properly applied to drow ancestors before their transformation and banishment, were drawn from venerating the Seldarine to the worship of dark powers such as Ghaunadaur, Vhaeraun,and Lolth
At the end of the fourth Crown War, circa -10,000 DR, the corrupt dark elven Ilythiiri and others were transformed by Corellon's magic into Drow as directed through the Protector's priests and High Mages, and banished to the lightless depths of the Underdark.
And none of this applies to Greyhawk, where Drow were originally conceived. They were not cursed by Corellon Larethian, otherwise Gygax would have written it to be so. They were driven underground, along with the Derro, Duergar and Kuo-Toa, but the similarity to Drow of Faerun ends there.
I believe the Drow were based off the Dokkalfar/Svartalfar while their fairer skinned cousins were based off the Ljosalfar, if memory serves.
In the Forgotten Realms, though, the Drow, previously known as the Ssri-TelíQuessir to other elves, lived above ground. They were referred to as "Dark Elves" because of their worship of evil gods (ie. Ghaunadaur, Vhaeraun,and Lolth). At the end of the Crown War, Corellon transformed them into what they are now and they were banished to the Underdark. It's not so much that they "evolved" to have dark skin, it was forced upon them by deific magics.
Check out "Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark" for more information if you're interested.
The drow once lived in the Lands of Light alongside their fairer kindred, where they were known to elves as the Ssri-TelíQuessir. The dark elves, a term more properly applied to drow ancestors before their transformation and banishment, were drawn from venerating the Seldarine to the worship of dark powers such as Ghaunadaur, Vhaeraun,and Lolth
At the end of the fourth Crown War, circa -10,000 DR, the corrupt dark elven Ilythiiri and others were transformed by Corellon's magic into Drow as directed through the Protector's priests and High Mages, and banished to the lightless depths of the Underdark.
That is an add-on "history" so not necessarily true.
That is an add-on "history" so not necessarily true.
Yellow flag on the field; "No True Scotsman" fallacy detected in play. 15 yard penalty.
...
Seriously. If it's from an officially-recognized source - which absolutely any non-fanfic Drizz't source by definition is - then it's not "add-on", it's D&D's official take on the race.
And none of this applies to Greyhawk, where Drow were originally conceived. They were not cursed by Corellon Larethian, otherwise Gygax would have written it to be so. They were driven underground, along with the Derro, Duergar and Kuo-Toa, but the similarity to Drow of Faerun ends there.
Yeah.
I just read the original Vault of Drow by Gygax. The drow entry says, when elves "were new to the face of the earth", they split, and the "elves" ( = high elves) and the "faeries" ( = grey elves with purple eyes) drove them underground. There, the drow ended up preferring the underground, and no longer wished to live on the surface.
My adaption of Gygax is. Grey elves materialized from the faerie realm into the material plane. There within the material, they split into drow and high elves. Thus there are no drow in the faerie realm.
It's been way too long since my first experiences with Drow so I honestly don't remember; is there any source that says they did not have dark skin before being driven underground?
I vaguely remember, in a previous version of the Forgotten Realms setting, the drow as "dark elves" originally had brown skin. They were cursed to have black skin because they were evil. The ones who repented were allowed to have light blue skin. So all three colors coexist. Additionally some of the evil black drow have "albinos" who can pass as high elves.
DnD is meant to be not!Medieval anyways. That kind of thinking is pretty much how people operated before modernity, so I say it fits into the setting perfectly. Judging entirely justified xenophobia of the medieval society from the comfortable safety of modern society is such a hypocricy...
Bessides chances are those goblins also took that land by force and killed everyone who lived there before them.
Well, you'd be wrong because the co-creator of the game gave a perfect example of just what Lawful Good means. Thus spake Gygax:
Being merciful to Goblins is idiotic. They're Goblins and they're Evil. They routinely engage in pillaging, murder, rapine and destruction of settlements of humans & demihumans. D&D is not 4-Color Heroism. Go play Champions if you want that kind of game.
Just going to point out this thread appears to have got wildly off topic, departing from the region of 'what would be less pejorative names for X' and into an esoteric discussion of ethics and morality within various regions of fantasy.
Please keep things on topic; if you discover a new, interesting topic you want to discuss, please start a new thread.
Thanks
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Considering that these are still exonyms, this doesn't actually address the OP's question about endonyms for these races. 🤷♂️
Ah, cool. I had only looked at the FRWiki's page for dwarves and it didn't list an endonym. I'll have to suggest a change to address this.
Heh. Apparently the Dwarven name for "Halfling" is Jargh, which in Dwarven means "idiot".
Not kidding.
It seems, this language will do little to address the concerns of the original post!
he / him
Source: Hobbit - Wikipedia
Tolkien has King Théoden of Rohan say "the Halflings, that some among us call the Holbytlan". Tolkien set out a fictional etymology for the word "hobbit" in an appendix to The Lord of the Rings, that it was derived from holbytla (plural holbytlan), meaning "hole-builder". This was Tolkien's own new construction from Old English hol, "a hole or hollow", and bytlan, "to build".
Source: Dwarf (mythology) - Wikipedia
The minority plural dwarves was recorded as early as 1818. However, it was later popularized by the fiction of philologist and legendarium author J. R. R. Tolkien, originating as a hypercorrective mistake. It was employed by Tolkien since some time before 1917.
Regarding his use of this plural, Tolkien wrote in 1937, "I am afraid it is just a piece of private bad grammar, rather shocking in a philologist; but I shall have to go with it".
Uh, so why the white hair? That pretty much destroys any attempt of camouflage.
Cripes, does no one do ANY research anymore? Their hair, assuming the hood of their Elven cloak were pulled down, would blend in with the background colors....
From D3: Vault of the Drow
Special Note: Colors will be non-normal under the strange light of the stony Drow "heavens". Those with normal visual capabilities will see only in blacks and grays with bluish tinges. Those with infravision will see blues and purples as well as dull reds. All yellows appear green. With ultravision, all colors glow, scintillate, and are breathtaking. As referee, feel free to give any color you believe reasonable for monsters with distinctive coloration, i.e.indigo worm, lavender trolls, puce bugbears, etc.
Skin colours aside, black (particularly in western cultures) has plenty of connotations of evil, death, mystery, terror and so on, especially when contrasted with white. Black is the colour of mourning. It’s the colour of witches’ attire. Black cats are bad luck. The White Knight is the good one, the Black Knight is evil (same with cowboy hats). Light vs Dark - darkness is scary. Darkness is decay, is negation, is what must be kept at bay, is where death and danger lie in ambush. White Magic is life-affirming, Black Magic is dangerous and used for nefarious purposes.
I’m sure all sorts of logic-based arguments can be made why Drow skin became black (or various tones close to black, at least), but I’m also fairly confident they were created as Dark Elves by Gygax because of all that is evoked culturally by such a description. They were literally described as “as dark as fairies are bright”.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
So, their white hair is an adaption to wearing their hoods pulled down? Okaaaay.
Even if this wren't solely applicable to the eponymous Vault (and not to the underdark in general), this would still be irrelevant to the drow's supposed "addaptions".
Okay, smart guy, why DID the Drow develop inky black skin that just happened to allow them to completely blend in with their natural surroundings? Cause it wasn't cause they were Evil or Cursed. They were Evil BEFORE they fled underground and inky-black skin wouldn't do them much good on the surface.
It's been way too long since my first experiences with Drow so I honestly don't remember; is there any source that says they did not have dark skin before being driven underground?
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I believe the Drow were based off the Dokkalfar/Svartalfar while their fairer skinned cousins were based off the Ljosalfar, if memory serves.
In the Forgotten Realms, though, the Drow, previously known as the Ssri-TelíQuessir to other elves, lived above ground. They were referred to as "Dark Elves" because of their worship of evil gods (ie. Ghaunadaur, Vhaeraun,and Lolth). At the end of the Crown War, Corellon transformed them into what they are now and they were banished to the Underdark. It's not so much that they "evolved" to have dark skin, it was forced upon them by deific magics.
Check out "Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark" for more information if you're interested.
Much appreciated!
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
And none of this applies to Greyhawk, where Drow were originally conceived. They were not cursed by Corellon Larethian, otherwise Gygax would have written it to be so. They were driven underground, along with the Derro, Duergar and Kuo-Toa, but the similarity to Drow of Faerun ends there.
That is an add-on "history" so not necessarily true.
But also WAY off from talking about Halflings.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Yellow flag on the field; "No True Scotsman" fallacy detected in play. 15 yard penalty.
...
Seriously. If it's from an officially-recognized source - which absolutely any non-fanfic Drizz't source by definition is - then it's not "add-on", it's D&D's official take on the race.
Yeah.
I just read the original Vault of Drow by Gygax. The drow entry says, when elves "were new to the face of the earth", they split, and the "elves" ( = high elves) and the "faeries" ( = grey elves with purple eyes) drove them underground. There, the drow ended up preferring the underground, and no longer wished to live on the surface.
My adaption of Gygax is. Grey elves materialized from the faerie realm into the material plane. There within the material, they split into drow and high elves. Thus there are no drow in the faerie realm.
he / him
I vaguely remember, in a previous version of the Forgotten Realms setting, the drow as "dark elves" originally had brown skin. They were cursed to have black skin because they were evil. The ones who repented were allowed to have light blue skin. So all three colors coexist. Additionally some of the evil black drow have "albinos" who can pass as high elves.
he / him