Can the original issue be phrased more specifically?
Is the issue that we IRL have a game with a manual that labels a race as "halfling," which triggers certain alleged connotations?
Or is it that within the game fiction, there's a species that lets itself be called by a descriptive Common-language name (which presumably translates to something like "halfling" in English) despite probably having their own name for themselves in their own language?
It means broken, busted. I don’t see why that would have to have any bearing on the halfling word though. “Halfling” is a word in Common. As such, it’s possible to draw some connections to English, as that’s the substitute used in game to represent Common (which makes me wonder what halflings are called in German translations of D&D books). “Hin” is a Halfling word. As the Halfling language is entirely made up (as opposed to Common, which is basically going to be whatever language you play in - and quite possibly a mix of your native tongue and English, if the latter is not your first language), hin is just a made up word as well.
Here is the University of Munich's German dictionary, specifically the entry for Hin in the German to English page. Please indicate where the meaning 'broken' or 'busted' is anywhere there. https://dict.leo.org/german-english/Hin
Many foreign words end up in English. That 'Halfling' is a word in English (or common) does not mean it is not also a word in Halfling. Regardless, half the size does not equal half the person. And insisting otherwise or even saying 'well others might think that' and using that as a reason to change the name is just giving in to that kind of name calling. My given name is one that can apply to either gender but when I was a child, it was much more associated with girls than with boys. As a result I got teased and picked on a lot. For unrelated reasons, I changed schools after Kindergarten and my parents gave me the option of registering under my middle name instead of my first name, but despite the bullying, I refused. I was even back then not willing to change my name simply to appease the masses. I am not any less straight simply because my name seems feminine to some people. Halflings are not any less persons simply because their name includes the word 'half.'
And lest anyone misunderstand what I am saying about my experiences with my name, such experiences made me much more sympathetic than others of my age with respect to anyone who actually is of any other gender identity or gender preference other than straight and with respect to what they went through and too often today, still go through.
Each race has its own words that it uses to describe itself. The problem is in translating those words into the common tongue A lot of the meaning is lost in the translation, but those translations become so;well, common, that they almost become a meme, or an insult
or that’s why I think anyway.
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So an Australian site that does NOT have the normal definition of 'hin' vs a site from a major German university, linked by someone living in Germany who is married to a German native (who also knows of no such connotation)....
I’m not sure that living in Germany makes you an authority and I’m not familiar with your spouse’s vocabulary, but I apologize for being lazy and only posting the first link I found rather than the first five. It won’t happen again.
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So an Australian site that does NOT have the normal definition of 'hin' vs a site from a major German university, linked by someone living in Germany who is married to a German native (who also knows of no such connotation)....
I’m not sure that living in Germany makes you an authority and I’m not familiar with your spouse’s vocabulary, but I apologize for being lazy and only posting the first link I found rather than the first five. It won’t happen again.
Oh, bloody heck. This is why you need to learn at least something about a language before you simply pick up a dictionary and declare you know things.
"Hin sein." Literal translation, "to be there" Yeah as a specific phase in the right intonation and context it can mean "worn out" or "broken down." But that is NOT the general use definition of the word. They call themselves "Hin," not "Hin-sein."
If you insist that words only be used if they can in no possible way be used in a negative context then there is no point to this entire exercise.
Dude. I know more than enough German to know that "sein" means "to be". You know: ich bin, du bist, er/sie/es ist and so on. It has no part in the meaning of the word hin. I don't care whether worn out/broken/busted is not the general use definition of the word. The general use definition of the word has no relevance here - halflings certainly don't call themselves the There. If someone asks whether hin has a connotation via the German language and what it is, why would you tell them something obviously irrelevant? Either it doesn't have a connotation (which is what I'd go with, as stated in a previous post), or it has a connotation that corresponds with something linguistically plausible. And for hin and German, that plausible connotation is something broken.
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In your first link, the 'broken' definition is given for the phrase 'Hin sein.' It means broken, colloquially, as an ADVERB in that specific context. Note as an ADVERB not as a NOUN.
It is also a bloody safe bet that they do not speak German. The race name in Common/English in Forgotten Realms is 'Hin.'
First, it's not an adverb. It's an adjective (it modifies the noun that is, as in "Das ist hin" = "This is broken" - hin/broken is an adjective that modifies das/this). Second, that doesn't matter. These words can easily get used as nouns: the short, the tall, the broken, the good, the bad and the ugly. Third, I thought the race name in Common is "Halfling"? Considering it's what they call themselves, I assume the race name in Halfling is "Hin", and halflings/hin may substitute the Halfling term for the Common term if they feel like it when speaking Common. Fourth, I know they don't speak German. That's the point I made when the whole hin connotation came up. People asked about it anyway.
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I am sure it occurs to everyone sooner or later that the names of these two races seem quite belittling and insulting.
But are they? As others have pointed out, in the context of fantasy, they traditionally have more positive connotations as negative. And frankly, to the extent Dwarves have negative connotations it is typically not about height but other negative qualities such as drunkenness, bad tempers or greed.
Equating them with goblins happens next to never but here in 2020, even traditional 'monsters' such as goblins and kobolds are as or more presented as cute and desirable to play.
Even to the extent height is mentioned, it is usually presented as a positive (being able to slip through small spaces, or out maneuver larger creatures).
Without negative connotations, particularly without any connected to height, what, exactly, is wrong with the names?
Lots of lawsuit fallout on the use of Hobbits coming from the Tolkien estate. That was why TSR had to switch to something else. Interestingly enough, the word itself appears to pre-date Tolkien as it was found in the Denham Tracts of English folklore. The wiki article on it actually mentions the possibility of Tolkien getting the word from it. I understand that the tract did not have any real information on what they were though.
I have to say this discussion seems largely academic. Dwarves are called Dwarves by Humans in the Common language. What do Dwarfs call themselves in their own language of Dwarvish? Do they call themselves Dwarves? What do Halflings call themselves in the Halfling language? It seems like you've completely ignored that angle.
It would be whatever the Dwarven word for Dwarf would be. In Tolkien's world it's Khazâd and since D&D Dwarves are based off Tolkienien Dwarves it wouldn't be a stretch to apply the same language at a table as Tolkien especially considering he went so far as to actually create one. In official written content that would be much harder due to legal reasons.
I have to say this discussion seems largely academic. Dwarves are called Dwarves by Humans in the Common language. What do Dwarfs call themselves in their own language of Dwarvish? Do they call themselves Dwarves? What do Halflings call themselves in the Halfling language? It seems like you've completely ignored that angle.
It would be whatever the Dwarven word for Dwarf would be. In Tolkien's world it's Khazâd and since D&D Dwarves are based off Tolkienien Dwarves it wouldn't be a stretch to apply the same language at a table as Tolkien especially considering he went so far as to actually create one. In official written content that would be much harder due to legal reasons.
Funny enough, the Forgotten Realms has endonyms for both halflings and elves, but to my knowledge there's isn't one for dwarves.
I have to say this discussion seems largely academic. Dwarves are called Dwarves by Humans in the Common language. What do Dwarfs call themselves in their own language of Dwarvish? Do they call themselves Dwarves? What do Halflings call themselves in the Halfling language? It seems like you've completely ignored that angle.
It would be whatever the Dwarven word for Dwarf would be. In Tolkien's world it's Khazâd and since D&D Dwarves are based off Tolkienien Dwarves it wouldn't be a stretch to apply the same language at a table as Tolkien especially considering he went so far as to actually create one. In official written content that would be much harder due to legal reasons.
Funny enough, the Forgotten Realms has endonyms for both halflings and elves, but to my knowledge there's isn't one for dwarves.
According to the Forgotten Realms wiki the Dwarvish word for "Dwarf" is "Dwar".
Apparently this comes from an old Dragon Magazine article called "A Dwarven Lexicon"
Some people must not have any fun playing this great game.
Exactly. If people wonder why us older fans become exasperated nowadays, one needs only to pay attention to the discourses going on about OUR game. I mean, if Halfling is offensive because of being "Half a man", then Kender can't be used either since it came DIRECTLY from the German word "Kinder", meaning Children.
Here's a handy-dandy NOT OFFENSIVE guide to renaming your fantasy races (from the Flan language), courtesy of D&D co-creator E. Gary Gygax: Elf = Olve Dwarf = Dwur Gnome = Noniz Halfling = Hobniz Goblin = Jebli Hobgoblin = High Jebline Kobold = Celbit Ork = Euroz Ogre = Eiger Gnoll = Kell Bugbear = Buheer Norker = Noblink Giant = Jialt
Here's a handy-dandy NOT OFFENSIVE guide to renaming your fantasy races (from the Flan language), courtesy of D&D co-creator E. Gary Gygax:
Giant = Jialt
This must be false surely, My Lord Odin got rid of all the giants!
To be fair I can't believe that this argument has survived into 9 pages, why haven't the moderators stepped in to lock the thread? The whole thing is a pointless exercise, do people not have enough work to do or real things in their lives to worry about; that they have enough time and energy to feel offended on behalf of the imaginary feelings of a make believe group of people in a fictional world as part of a game of fantasy?
It doesn't matter one jot to the non-existent Dwarves and Halflings what name you call them, they don't have any feelings to get hurt, because they aren't real. They don't exist. The whole thing is due to the fact that modern kids just don't have anything meaningful to do, so they invent reasons to be offended in order to make a scene and have their 5 minutes of fame.
Here's a handy-dandy NOT OFFENSIVE guide to renaming your fantasy races (from the Flan language), courtesy of D&D co-creator E. Gary Gygax:
Giant = Jialt
This must be false surely, My Lord Odin got rid of all the giants!
To be fair I can't believe that this argument has survived into 9 pages, why haven't the moderators stepped in to lock the thread? The whole thing is a pointless exercise, do people not have enough work to do or real things in their lives to worry about; that they have enough time and energy to feel offended on behalf of the imaginary feelings of a make believe group of people in a fictional world as part of a game of fantasy?
It doesn't matter one jot to the non-existent Dwarves and Halflings what name you call them, they don't have any feelings to get hurt, because they aren't real. They don't exist. The whole thing is due to the fact that modern kids just don't have anything meaningful to do, so they invent reasons to be offended in order to make a scene and have their 5 minutes of fame.
For the umptieth time, nobody's being offended on behalf of imaginary beings. One person suggested that in their setting, a couple of races would prefer to have a name of their own to call themselves that has no connotations they might not like unlike the one used in Common by other races. That's all this is about. Nobody's saying all halflings should resent the longshanks for implying they are lacking in the tallness department and thus inferior. It's not a change to canonical lore. It's not saying WotC has racist tendencies towards the little people. It's a flavour thing at one table. I mean, I've seen examples in this thread, from someone who thinks that it's a bad idea for whatever reason, of having races at their table using derogatory terms for other races. That's pretty much the same thing. It's a bit of racial seasoning one DM is thinking of using that has no bearing on anyone else. I find it much more surprising that so many people seem to take enough offense at this notion that they feel the need to complain about it.
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For the umptieth time, nobody's being offended on behalf of imaginary beings. One person suggested that in their setting, a couple of races would prefer to have a name of their own to call themselves that has no connotations they might not like unlike the one used in Common by other races. That's all this is about. Nobody's saying all halflings should resent the longshanks for implying they are lacking in the tallness department and thus inferior. It's not a change to canonical lore. It's not saying WotC has racist tendencies towards the little people. It's a flavour thing at one table. I mean, I've seen examples in this thread, from someone who thinks that it's a bad idea for whatever reason, of having races at their table using derogatory terms for other races. That's pretty much the same thing. It's a bit of racial seasoning one DM is thinking of using that has no bearing on anyone else. I find it much more surprising that so many people seem to take enough offense at this notion that they feel the need to complain about it.
If it were just one person suggesting they wanted to name their Halflings and Dwarves something else then perhaps they should have just said that in their initial post and asked for suggestions for a new name - and put the thread in the Homebrew section. That way we wouldn't have had 9 pages of people having a philosophical argument about the feelings of imaginary folk to imaginary racism.
For the umptieth time, nobody's being offended on behalf of imaginary beings. One person suggested that in their setting, a couple of races would prefer to have a name of their own to call themselves that has no connotations they might not like unlike the one used in Common by other races. That's all this is about. Nobody's saying all halflings should resent the longshanks for implying they are lacking in the tallness department and thus inferior. It's not a change to canonical lore. It's not saying WotC has racist tendencies towards the little people. It's a flavour thing at one table. I mean, I've seen examples in this thread, from someone who thinks that it's a bad idea for whatever reason, of having races at their table using derogatory terms for other races. That's pretty much the same thing. It's a bit of racial seasoning one DM is thinking of using that has no bearing on anyone else. I find it much more surprising that so many people seem to take enough offense at this notion that they feel the need to complain about it.
If it were just one person suggesting they wanted to name their Halflings and Dwarves something else then perhaps they should have just said that in their initial post and asked for suggestions for a new name - and put the thread in the Homebrew section. That way we wouldn't have had 9 pages of people having a philosophical argument about the feelings of imaginary folk to imaginary racism.
I would be tempted to start a thread asking if there is a better name for Elves, since in the real world they are usually associated as a work force (who apparently can never leave an Arctic gulag) for Santa, or making cookies, all the time while wearing funny hats. I would ask if all the Elves in the real world are offended by such stereotypes, and if when they play D&D if they are offended by such stereotypes. But given that like Halflings, Elves don't exist in the real world, so it is difficult to find any Elves to ask. Also, such a thread would get me banned.
If it were just one person suggesting they wanted to name their Halflings and Dwarves something else then perhaps they should have just said that in their initial post and asked for suggestions for a new name - and put the thread in the Homebrew section. That way we wouldn't have had 9 pages of people having a philosophical argument about the feelings of imaginary folk to imaginary racism.
It's kind of dumb to ask for a name that has no negative connotations without, you know, mentioning you don't want it to have negative connotations. We've had most of these 9 pages because people apparently can't let it go that someone asks a simple question about something that doesn't fit in their way of thinking.
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Can the original issue be phrased more specifically?
Is the issue that we IRL have a game with a manual that labels a race as "halfling," which triggers certain alleged connotations?
Or is it that within the game fiction, there's a species that lets itself be called by a descriptive Common-language name (which presumably translates to something like "halfling" in English) despite probably having their own name for themselves in their own language?
If it's both, then which is the priority?
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the/german-word-for-broken.html
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Each race has its own words that it uses to describe itself. The problem is in translating those words into the common tongue A lot of the meaning is lost in the translation, but those translations become so;well, common, that they almost become a meme, or an insult
or that’s why I think anyway.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/german-english/hin
https://en.langenscheidt.com/german-english/hin
https://m.interglot.com/de/en/hin
https://de-en.dict.cc/?s=HIN
Google Translate gives the same possible meaning as well
I’m not sure that living in Germany makes you an authority and I’m not familiar with your spouse’s vocabulary, but I apologize for being lazy and only posting the first link I found rather than the first five. It won’t happen again.
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Dude. I know more than enough German to know that "sein" means "to be". You know: ich bin, du bist, er/sie/es ist and so on. It has no part in the meaning of the word hin. I don't care whether worn out/broken/busted is not the general use definition of the word. The general use definition of the word has no relevance here - halflings certainly don't call themselves the There. If someone asks whether hin has a connotation via the German language and what it is, why would you tell them something obviously irrelevant? Either it doesn't have a connotation (which is what I'd go with, as stated in a previous post), or it has a connotation that corresponds with something linguistically plausible. And for hin and German, that plausible connotation is something broken.
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Almost universally, a culture’s name for itself usually means (or at one point meant) “the people.”
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First, it's not an adverb. It's an adjective (it modifies the noun that is, as in "Das ist hin" = "This is broken" - hin/broken is an adjective that modifies das/this).
Second, that doesn't matter. These words can easily get used as nouns: the short, the tall, the broken, the good, the bad and the ugly.
Third, I thought the race name in Common is "Halfling"? Considering it's what they call themselves, I assume the race name in Halfling is "Hin", and halflings/hin may substitute the Halfling term for the Common term if they feel like it when speaking Common.
Fourth, I know they don't speak German. That's the point I made when the whole hin connotation came up. People asked about it anyway.
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Lots of lawsuit fallout on the use of Hobbits coming from the Tolkien estate. That was why TSR had to switch to something else. Interestingly enough, the word itself appears to pre-date Tolkien as it was found in the Denham Tracts of English folklore. The wiki article on it actually mentions the possibility of Tolkien getting the word from it. I understand that the tract did not have any real information on what they were though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denham_Tracts
It would be whatever the Dwarven word for Dwarf would be. In Tolkien's world it's Khazâd and since D&D Dwarves are based off Tolkienien Dwarves it wouldn't be a stretch to apply the same language at a table as Tolkien especially considering he went so far as to actually create one. In official written content that would be much harder due to legal reasons.
Some people must not have any fun playing this great game.
Funny enough, the Forgotten Realms has endonyms for both halflings and elves, but to my knowledge there's isn't one for dwarves.
According to the Forgotten Realms wiki the Dwarvish word for "Dwarf" is "Dwar".
Apparently this comes from an old Dragon Magazine article called "A Dwarven Lexicon"
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dwarvish_dictionary#D
The classical hobbit for halflings is still an option.
And in norse mythology dwarves were also called Svartalf. Not to confused with dark elves.
Deep elves are also possible but that seps onto the toes of gnomes.
Dpnds on your campaign tbh.
Exactly. If people wonder why us older fans become exasperated nowadays, one needs only to pay attention to the discourses going on about OUR game. I mean, if Halfling is offensive because of being "Half a man", then Kender can't be used either since it came DIRECTLY from the German word "Kinder", meaning Children.
Here's a handy-dandy NOT OFFENSIVE guide to renaming your fantasy races (from the Flan language), courtesy of D&D co-creator E. Gary Gygax:
Elf = Olve
Dwarf = Dwur
Gnome = Noniz
Halfling = Hobniz
Goblin = Jebli
Hobgoblin = High Jebline
Kobold = Celbit
Ork = Euroz
Ogre = Eiger
Gnoll = Kell
Bugbear = Buheer
Norker = Noblink
Giant = Jialt
You're welcome.
This must be false surely, My Lord Odin got rid of all the giants!
To be fair I can't believe that this argument has survived into 9 pages, why haven't the moderators stepped in to lock the thread? The whole thing is a pointless exercise, do people not have enough work to do or real things in their lives to worry about; that they have enough time and energy to feel offended on behalf of the imaginary feelings of a make believe group of people in a fictional world as part of a game of fantasy?
It doesn't matter one jot to the non-existent Dwarves and Halflings what name you call them, they don't have any feelings to get hurt, because they aren't real. They don't exist. The whole thing is due to the fact that modern kids just don't have anything meaningful to do, so they invent reasons to be offended in order to make a scene and have their 5 minutes of fame.
For the umptieth time, nobody's being offended on behalf of imaginary beings. One person suggested that in their setting, a couple of races would prefer to have a name of their own to call themselves that has no connotations they might not like unlike the one used in Common by other races. That's all this is about. Nobody's saying all halflings should resent the longshanks for implying they are lacking in the tallness department and thus inferior. It's not a change to canonical lore. It's not saying WotC has racist tendencies towards the little people. It's a flavour thing at one table. I mean, I've seen examples in this thread, from someone who thinks that it's a bad idea for whatever reason, of having races at their table using derogatory terms for other races. That's pretty much the same thing. It's a bit of racial seasoning one DM is thinking of using that has no bearing on anyone else. I find it much more surprising that so many people seem to take enough offense at this notion that they feel the need to complain about it.
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I would be tempted to start a thread asking if there is a better name for Elves, since in the real world they are usually associated as a work force (who apparently can never leave an Arctic gulag) for Santa, or making cookies, all the time while wearing funny hats. I would ask if all the Elves in the real world are offended by such stereotypes, and if when they play D&D if they are offended by such stereotypes. But given that like Halflings, Elves don't exist in the real world, so it is difficult to find any Elves to ask. Also, such a thread would get me banned.
It's kind of dumb to ask for a name that has no negative connotations without, you know, mentioning you don't want it to have negative connotations. We've had most of these 9 pages because people apparently can't let it go that someone asks a simple question about something that doesn't fit in their way of thinking.
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We re nerds - complaining is half the fun.
he / him