Well, keep in mind that feats like Magic Initiate and Ritual Caster can add to those options and don't have to adhere to the EK's restrictions. Find Familiar in particular is a great spell choice, but much better if you can cast it as a ritual - rituals in general are a good way of expanding your spell list. There's also cantrips, which opens up options like Mind Sliver - which makes save-or-suck spells an even better choice.
At first glance I don't see the rather wonderful Charm Person listed. I don't quite follow the distinction between level 3 and level 4, one of the 3 spells you pick at level 3 can be non evocation/abjuration already. Mage Armor can be disregarded for the purposes of this list, since you intend to make that available as an at-will spell. Taking that into account I feel taking at least one 1st level spell that offers a save would be very appealing if Int were the primary ability for the character. For my money Shield, Burning Hands, Find Familiar, Protection from Evil and Good and either Absorb Elements or Charm Person are the best there (disregarding Mage Armor) and if I take out Find Familiar via the Ritual Caster feat only two of the five left don't care about Int. I'm also a little hesitant to take Absorb Elements right away. I think it can wait a few more levels and get swapped in.
At level 13, I don't know that I'm looking at damage spells. Fireball is great, don't get me wrong, but if I can prioritize Int over all other abilities Counterspell is an incredibly clutch option. As much as I value advantage on Wis saves, I highly doubt I'm not going for the Int-based choices there.
In sum, the benefits from swapping to Intelligence can be small if you really don't care for the spells where your Int matters but I think it's unlikely that's the case for most EKs.
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Well, keep in mind that feats like Magic Initiate and Ritual Caster can add to those options and don't have to adhere to the EK's restrictions. Find Familiar in particular is a great spell choice, but much better if you can cast it as a ritual - rituals in general are a good way of expanding your spell list. There's also cantrips, which opens up options like Mind Sliver - which makes save-or-suck spells an even better choice.
At first glance I don't see the rather wonderful Charm Person listed. I don't quite follow the distinction between level 3 and level 4, one of the 3 spells you pick at level 3 can be non evocation/abjuration already. Mage Armor can be disregarded for the purposes of this list, since you intend to make that available as an at-will spell. Taking that into account I feel taking at least one 1st level spell that offers a save would be very appealing if Int were the primary ability for the character. For my money Shield, Burning Hands, Find Familiar, Protection from Evil and Good and either Absorb Elements or Charm Person are the best there (disregarding Mage Armor) and if I take out Find Familiar via the Ritual Caster feat only two of the five left don't care about Int. I'm also a little hesitant to take Absorb Elements right away. I think it can wait a few more levels and get swapped in.
At level 13, I don't know that I'm looking at damage spells. Fireball is great, don't get me wrong, but if I can prioritize Int over all other abilities Counterspell is an incredibly clutch option. As much as I value advantage on Wis saves, I highly doubt I'm not going for the Int-based choices there.
In sum, the benefits from swapping to Intelligence can be small if you really don't care for the spells where your Int matters but I think it's unlikely that's the case for most EKs.
Your post mentions several issues.
Feats make a character more powerful. That is what a feat is supposed to do. Even when a feat is flavorful or changes the flavor of the character concept, the feat still needs to do it in a powerful way. To select one feat, means to miss out on the opportunity to select other feats. It is a tradeoff. One can use a feat to increase the access to known spells. But then there are other feats that empower the character in other ways (such as Sharpshooter for ranged attacks), that the character is missing out on.
The Mage Armor spell is generally considered "good" but less than "excellent" for an Eldritch Knight, since the Eldritch Knight already has studded leather. But it remains on the list here, because not all Eldritch Knights will want the Force Armor Fighting Style. For example, an Eldritch Knight who prioritizes Dexterity and ranged attacks (crossbows or longbow) will likely prefer the Archery Fighting Style. For this concept, the Mage Armor spell is a reasonable choice for a known spell.
Incidentally, in my experience, 5e Charm Person is less powerful than the Charm of previous editions. In 5e, Charm merely makes a target friendly. Thus the spell can end a hostile encounter. But the target still has complete freewill. The personality doesnt change. The target is no more controllable than a reallife friend is controllable. Afterward, the target immediately realizes that the charmer used magic to emotionally manipulate. The consequences of that realization might be very bad for the caster.
Shield, Burning Hands, Protection from Evil and Good, and Absorb Elements are either abjuration or evocation, so are easier to select. However neither Find Familiar nor Charm Person are, so typically one would need to choose either one or the other. In this case, Find Familiar is probably more useful more often for the Eldritch Knight.
The mention of level 4 was an oversight, deriving from three must-haves, then using the fourth spell to allow swapping in one from the other schools. I corrected the post.
Level 13 is level 13, and most campaigns will never reach this level. Regarding the antimagic spells, Counterspell and Dispel Magic, I view them as more passive and situational, but I agree they are nice to have, which is why they are on the list of decent spells to choose from. Even so, when level 14 happens, probably the Haste spell that dumps Intelligence is going to be spending the slot 3 for the remainder of the career. So Intelligence remains less important even at the higher levels.
Even if a player wants their Eldritch Knight to do more spellcasting, this is done competently with an Intelligence between 16 and 18. The human Fighter gains feats at levels 1, 4, 6, 8, 12, 14, 16, and 19. A human Eldritch Knight can easily start with Dexterity 16, Constitution 14, and Intelligence 14. Then at level 12, boost the Intelligence to 16, and even again at level 14, for Intelligence 18, thus do Intelligence spells well. And again, this is just "nice", because the non-Intelligence spells like Haste will be the go-to anyway.
In sum, Intelligence matters less for Eldritch Knight spellcasting. And can even be dumped hard to Intelligence 8.
Well, keep in mind that feats like Magic Initiate and Ritual Caster can add to those options and don't have to adhere to the EK's restrictions. Find Familiar in particular is a great spell choice, but much better if you can cast it as a ritual - rituals in general are a good way of expanding your spell list. There's also cantrips, which opens up options like Mind Sliver - which makes save-or-suck spells an even better choice.
At first glance I don't see the rather wonderful Charm Person listed. I don't quite follow the distinction between level 3 and level 4, one of the 3 spells you pick at level 3 can be non evocation/abjuration already. Mage Armor can be disregarded for the purposes of this list, since you intend to make that available as an at-will spell. Taking that into account I feel taking at least one 1st level spell that offers a save would be very appealing if Int were the primary ability for the character. For my money Shield, Burning Hands, Find Familiar, Protection from Evil and Good and either Absorb Elements or Charm Person are the best there (disregarding Mage Armor) and if I take out Find Familiar via the Ritual Caster feat only two of the five left don't care about Int. I'm also a little hesitant to take Absorb Elements right away. I think it can wait a few more levels and get swapped in.
At level 13, I don't know that I'm looking at damage spells. Fireball is great, don't get me wrong, but if I can prioritize Int over all other abilities Counterspell is an incredibly clutch option. As much as I value advantage on Wis saves, I highly doubt I'm not going for the Int-based choices there.
In sum, the benefits from swapping to Intelligence can be small if you really don't care for the spells where your Int matters but I think it's unlikely that's the case for most EKs.
Your post mentions several issues.
1) Feats make a character more powerful. That is what a feat is supposed to do. Even when a feat is flavorful or even changes the flavor of the character concept, the feat still needs to do it in a powerful way. To select one feat, means missing out on the opportunity select other feats. It is a tradeoff. One can use a feat to increase the number and categories of known spells. But then there are other feats that empower the character in other ways (such as Sharpshooter for ranged attacks), that the character is missing out on.
2) The Mage Armor spell is generally considered "good" but less than "excellent" for an Eldritch Knight, since the Eldritch Knight already has studded leather. But it remains on the list here, because not all Eldritch Knights will want the Force Armor Fighting Style. For example, an Eldritch Knight who prioritizes Dexterity and ranged attacks (crossbows or longbow) will likely prefer the Archery Fighting Style. For this concept, the Mage Armor spell is a reasonable choice for a known spell.
3) Incidentally, in my experience, 5e Charm Person is less powerful than the Charm of previous editions. In 5e, Charm merely makes a target friendly. Thus the spell can end a hostile encounter. But the target still has complete freewill. The personality doesnt change. The target is no more controllable than a reallife friend is controllable. Afterward, the target immediately realizes that the charmer used magic to emotionally manipulate. The consequences of that might be very bad.
4) Shield, Burning Hands, Protection from Evil and Good, and Absorb Elements are either abjuration or evocation, so are easier to select. However neither Find Familiar nor Charm Person are, so typically one would need to choose either one or the other. In this case, Find Familiar is probably more useful more often for the Eldritch Knight.
The mention of level 4 was an oversight, deriving from three must-haves, then using the fourth spell to allow swapping in one from the other schools. I corrected the post.
5) Level 13 is level 13, and most campaigns will never reach this level. Regarding the antimagic spells, Counterspell and Dispel Magic, I view them as more passive and situational, but I agree they are nice to have, which is why they are on the list of decent spells to choose from. Even so, when level 14 happens, probably the Haste spell that dumps Intelligence is going to be spending the slot 3 for the remainder of the career. So Intelligence remains less important even at the higher levels.
6) Even if a player wants their Eldritch Knight to do more spellcasting, this is done competently with an Intelligence between 16 and 18. The human Fighter gains feats at levels 1, 4, 6, 8, 12, 14, 16, and 19. A human Eldritch Knight can easily start with Dexterity 16, Constitution 14, and Intelligence 14. Then at level 12, boost the Intelligence to 16, and even again at level 14, for Intelligence 18, thus do Intelligence spells well. And again, this is just "nice", because the non-Intelligence spells like Haste will be the go-to anyway.
In sum, Intelligence matters less for Eldritch Knight spellcasting. And can even be dumped hard to Intelligence 8.
1) I think we're all aware of this, no need to point out the obvious as if it's an argument.
2) How do Eldritch Knights who don't want the Force Armor Fighting Style relate to balancing the ones who do, beyond as a point of comparison? We're presumably talking about characters that do take your homebrew approach, therefore do get Mage Armor for free, and therefore don't have to consider it as one of their precious few spells known. And are presumably picking up Swift Sword, so they arguably won't predominantly be archers anyway.
3) As a spell that doesn't require concentration and has a 1 hour duration, it's pretty darn useful. It can swing the tide of a combat encounter quite easily, but has a lot going for it out of combat as well. For questioning and persuading NPCs that otherwise might be unwilling to co-operate, without having to resort to violence or torture (which can be a big deal for many groups), it's a fantastic option. CP was a no-brainer in previous editions, but it's still a kicker of a spell in 5E.
4) Find Familiar is fantastic, but takes an hour to cast and requires components with a gold cost. It's also a ritual spell, and ritual magic is great for Eldritch Knights. It's not necessarily a choice between Find Familiar and Charm Person but more a choice between spending a feat to get potential access to all ritual spells (and two off the bat, one of which is almost certainly going to be FF) and leaving one of your spell choices open for Charm Person or another spell you might want, or spending your feat option on something else.
5) "Most campaigns will never reach this level" is not an argument when it comes to balance. As for Haste, that's an effect much better relegated to a magical item than using up a spell choice for an Eldritch Knight. Fly as well, to be honest. It's great to be able to leave open item slots by simply being able to cast the spell yourself, sure, but for an EK who only gets to know a very limited number of spells and has a very limited number of slots to cast them with that's a very different equation.
6) Again, that depends on the spells you want to use. It also depends on whether you want to use your ASIs to buff two stats to 18-20 instead of just one, or to pick up some actual feats at lower levels as well. I also notice the "most campaigns will never reach this level" argument goes out the window at this point, but I'll let that slide.
In sum, I have to disagree with your assessment.
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1) Feats make a character more powerful. That is what a feat is supposed to do. Even when a feat is flavorful or even changes the flavor of the character concept, the feat still needs to do it in a powerful way. To select one feat, means missing out on the opportunity select other feats. It is a tradeoff. One can use a feat to increase the number and categories of known spells. But then there are other feats that empower the character in other ways (such as Sharpshooter for ranged attacks), that the character is missing out on.
1) I think we're all aware of this, no need to point out the obvious as if it's an argument.
Feats should be nice, not required.
It seems worthwhile to point out that flavor itself shouldnt cost a feat. Because some people think swapping Strength for Dexterity should cost a feat, or swapping Dexterity for Intelligence should cost a feat, even tho the overall gains and losses are a wash.
1) Feats make a character more powerful. That is what a feat is supposed to do. Even when a feat is flavorful or even changes the flavor of the character concept, the feat still needs to do it in a powerful way. To select one feat, means missing out on the opportunity select other feats. It is a tradeoff. One can use a feat to increase the number and categories of known spells. But then there are other feats that empower the character in other ways (such as Sharpshooter for ranged attacks), that the character is missing out on.
1) I think we're all aware of this, no need to point out the obvious as if it's an argument.
Feats should be nice, not required.
It seems worthwhile to point out that flavor itself shouldnt cost a feat. Because some people think swapping Strength for Dexterity should cost a feat, or swapping Dexterity for Intelligence should cost a feat, even tho the overall gains and losses are a wash.
Unfortunately its pretty much a given that feats are a requirement in the game for certain classes. A fighter will not be nearly as good without them.
This also true of magic items as fighters literally never get a way to make magical weapons outside of Eldritch Knight.
This is why understanding where the game balance is important so that you do not cause too much havoc by making things too underperforming for your players.
1) Feats make a character more powerful. That is what a feat is supposed to do. Even when a feat is flavorful or even changes the flavor of the character concept, the feat still needs to do it in a powerful way. To select one feat, means missing out on the opportunity select other feats. It is a tradeoff. One can use a feat to increase the number and categories of known spells. But then there are other feats that empower the character in other ways (such as Sharpshooter for ranged attacks), that the character is missing out on.
1) I think we're all aware of this, no need to point out the obvious as if it's an argument.
Feats should be nice, not required.
It seems worthwhile to point out that flavor itself shouldnt cost a feat. Because some people think swapping Strength for Dexterity should cost a feat, or swapping Dexterity for Intelligence should cost a feat, even tho the overall gains and losses are a wash.
Again, I don’t agree this swap is a wash. Moreover, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone say swapping Int for Dex when it comes to AC should cost a feat - that was always part of a larger package.
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I would make this two separate feats one for the mage armor and one for the weapon as far as your point about plate mail while you are proficient in it there is no way for a level one fighter to get plate mail without the Dm awarding it where as this is a fighting style choose by the player that being said because this is Homebrew Dm has to allow this as well so yes this would never be made official by wizards of the coast at least as one whole thing I could see this being split into two separate feat alternatives for the Eldritch knight as optional rules all in all I like the idea just not as a fighting style
Well, keep in mind that feats like Magic Initiate and Ritual Caster can add to those options and don't have to adhere to the EK's restrictions. Find Familiar in particular is a great spell choice, but much better if you can cast it as a ritual - rituals in general are a good way of expanding your spell list. There's also cantrips, which opens up options like Mind Sliver - which makes save-or-suck spells an even better choice.
At first glance I don't see the rather wonderful Charm Person listed. I don't quite follow the distinction between level 3 and level 4, one of the 3 spells you pick at level 3 can be non evocation/abjuration already. Mage Armor can be disregarded for the purposes of this list, since you intend to make that available as an at-will spell. Taking that into account I feel taking at least one 1st level spell that offers a save would be very appealing if Int were the primary ability for the character. For my money Shield, Burning Hands, Find Familiar, Protection from Evil and Good and either Absorb Elements or Charm Person are the best there (disregarding Mage Armor) and if I take out Find Familiar via the Ritual Caster feat only two of the five left don't care about Int. I'm also a little hesitant to take Absorb Elements right away. I think it can wait a few more levels and get swapped in.
At level 13, I don't know that I'm looking at damage spells. Fireball is great, don't get me wrong, but if I can prioritize Int over all other abilities Counterspell is an incredibly clutch option. As much as I value advantage on Wis saves, I highly doubt I'm not going for the Int-based choices there.
In sum, the benefits from swapping to Intelligence can be small if you really don't care for the spells where your Int matters but I think it's unlikely that's the case for most EKs.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Your post mentions several issues.
Feats make a character more powerful. That is what a feat is supposed to do. Even when a feat is flavorful or changes the flavor of the character concept, the feat still needs to do it in a powerful way. To select one feat, means to miss out on the opportunity to select other feats. It is a tradeoff. One can use a feat to increase the access to known spells. But then there are other feats that empower the character in other ways (such as Sharpshooter for ranged attacks), that the character is missing out on.
The Mage Armor spell is generally considered "good" but less than "excellent" for an Eldritch Knight, since the Eldritch Knight already has studded leather. But it remains on the list here, because not all Eldritch Knights will want the Force Armor Fighting Style. For example, an Eldritch Knight who prioritizes Dexterity and ranged attacks (crossbows or longbow) will likely prefer the Archery Fighting Style. For this concept, the Mage Armor spell is a reasonable choice for a known spell.
Incidentally, in my experience, 5e Charm Person is less powerful than the Charm of previous editions. In 5e, Charm merely makes a target friendly. Thus the spell can end a hostile encounter. But the target still has complete freewill. The personality doesnt change. The target is no more controllable than a reallife friend is controllable. Afterward, the target immediately realizes that the charmer used magic to emotionally manipulate. The consequences of that realization might be very bad for the caster.
Shield, Burning Hands, Protection from Evil and Good, and Absorb Elements are either abjuration or evocation, so are easier to select. However neither Find Familiar nor Charm Person are, so typically one would need to choose either one or the other. In this case, Find Familiar is probably more useful more often for the Eldritch Knight.
The mention of level 4 was an oversight, deriving from three must-haves, then using the fourth spell to allow swapping in one from the other schools. I corrected the post.
Level 13 is level 13, and most campaigns will never reach this level. Regarding the antimagic spells, Counterspell and Dispel Magic, I view them as more passive and situational, but I agree they are nice to have, which is why they are on the list of decent spells to choose from. Even so, when level 14 happens, probably the Haste spell that dumps Intelligence is going to be spending the slot 3 for the remainder of the career. So Intelligence remains less important even at the higher levels.
Even if a player wants their Eldritch Knight to do more spellcasting, this is done competently with an Intelligence between 16 and 18. The human Fighter gains feats at levels 1, 4, 6, 8, 12, 14, 16, and 19. A human Eldritch Knight can easily start with Dexterity 16, Constitution 14, and Intelligence 14. Then at level 12, boost the Intelligence to 16, and even again at level 14, for Intelligence 18, thus do Intelligence spells well. And again, this is just "nice", because the non-Intelligence spells like Haste will be the go-to anyway.
In sum, Intelligence matters less for Eldritch Knight spellcasting. And can even be dumped hard to Intelligence 8.
he / him
1) I think we're all aware of this, no need to point out the obvious as if it's an argument.
2) How do Eldritch Knights who don't want the Force Armor Fighting Style relate to balancing the ones who do, beyond as a point of comparison? We're presumably talking about characters that do take your homebrew approach, therefore do get Mage Armor for free, and therefore don't have to consider it as one of their precious few spells known. And are presumably picking up Swift Sword, so they arguably won't predominantly be archers anyway.
3) As a spell that doesn't require concentration and has a 1 hour duration, it's pretty darn useful. It can swing the tide of a combat encounter quite easily, but has a lot going for it out of combat as well. For questioning and persuading NPCs that otherwise might be unwilling to co-operate, without having to resort to violence or torture (which can be a big deal for many groups), it's a fantastic option. CP was a no-brainer in previous editions, but it's still a kicker of a spell in 5E.
4) Find Familiar is fantastic, but takes an hour to cast and requires components with a gold cost. It's also a ritual spell, and ritual magic is great for Eldritch Knights. It's not necessarily a choice between Find Familiar and Charm Person but more a choice between spending a feat to get potential access to all ritual spells (and two off the bat, one of which is almost certainly going to be FF) and leaving one of your spell choices open for Charm Person or another spell you might want, or spending your feat option on something else.
5) "Most campaigns will never reach this level" is not an argument when it comes to balance. As for Haste, that's an effect much better relegated to a magical item than using up a spell choice for an Eldritch Knight. Fly as well, to be honest. It's great to be able to leave open item slots by simply being able to cast the spell yourself, sure, but for an EK who only gets to know a very limited number of spells and has a very limited number of slots to cast them with that's a very different equation.
6) Again, that depends on the spells you want to use. It also depends on whether you want to use your ASIs to buff two stats to 18-20 instead of just one, or to pick up some actual feats at lower levels as well. I also notice the "most campaigns will never reach this level" argument goes out the window at this point, but I'll let that slide.
In sum, I have to disagree with your assessment.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Feats should be nice, not required.
It seems worthwhile to point out that flavor itself shouldnt cost a feat. Because some people think swapping Strength for Dexterity should cost a feat, or swapping Dexterity for Intelligence should cost a feat, even tho the overall gains and losses are a wash.
he / him
Unfortunately its pretty much a given that feats are a requirement in the game for certain classes. A fighter will not be nearly as good without them.
This also true of magic items as fighters literally never get a way to make magical weapons outside of Eldritch Knight.
This is why understanding where the game balance is important so that you do not cause too much havoc by making things too underperforming for your players.
Again, I don’t agree this swap is a wash. Moreover, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone say swapping Int for Dex when it comes to AC should cost a feat - that was always part of a larger package.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I would make this two separate feats one for the mage armor and one for the weapon as far as your point about plate mail while you are proficient in it there is no way for a level one fighter to get plate mail without the Dm awarding it where as this is a fighting style choose by the player that being said because this is Homebrew Dm has to allow this as well so yes this would never be made official by wizards of the coast at least as one whole thing I could see this being split into two separate feat alternatives for the Eldritch knight as optional rules all in all I like the idea just not as a fighting style