Pardon my grumpyness but this bothers me to no end,why cant sorcerers cast shapeshift or true polymorph?, you'd think the dragon sorcerer could eventually tap into his blood and become a full dragon for a time, or perhaps the divine soul truly becoming divine and become angels,but no.
At first i could understand that but as 5th edition progressed it seemed to be actively ignored to my knowledge,as almost every spell casting class gets to get these spells eventually, warlocks,arcane clerics,wizards,bards hell even druids can get shapechange, why cant the sorcerer? Is it a concious choice??? Or is it an oversite? Please can anyone answer this for me?
I'm not looking for hearsay or interpretations, but is there a place (say a Sage Advice column) that clearly explains the rationale for the Sorcerer's spell list? It just seems, punitive in its puniness. I like to believe the account that a lot of attention was given to 5e in the balance front, etc., but the Sorcerer has an awful shortcoming on the spell list, the polymorph being just once instance.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I think it is mostly to keep Wizards and Sorcerers different, but it sucks that the sorcerer always gets punished while the wizard has everything they could ever want or need, and more. True Polymorph or Shapechange would definitely fit for sorcerers. I personally would allow it if a player asks me.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
It's apparently just company policy to keep sorcerers from being as good as wizards.
Well, seeing that the WIzards, who were by far the most powerful class in AD&D got constantly weaker and weaker as the editions flew by, and TSR was bought by WotC, this is a totally unsubstantiated claim. As for the sorcerers being weaker in magic than wizards, this is normal, since the sorcerers get a lot of advantages on their spellcasting in particular in terms of metamagic, to which one can add the importance of Cha in the game compared to Int. One day, people will understand that "it's logical from my game world perspective" or "I just want my favorite class to be OP" are not good arguments of game design.
One day, people will learn that sarcastic one lines on the internet should not be taken at face value.
Also wizards very much did not get weaker in 3rd Edition, while 4th Edition was sufficiently divorced from the rules of all other editions to make any statements regarding relative power levels useless. So wizards only got nerfed in 5th Edition, and even then it wasn't by much.
It's apparently just company policy to keep sorcerers from being as good as wizards.
Well, seeing that the WIzards, who were by far the most powerful class in AD&D got constantly weaker and weaker as the editions flew by, and TSR was bought by WotC, this is a totally unsubstantiated claim. As for the sorcerers being weaker in magic than wizards, this is normal, since the sorcerers get a lot of advantages on their spellcasting in particular in terms of metamagic, to which one can add the importance of Cha in the game compared to Int. One day, people will understand that "it's logical from my game world perspective" or "I just want my favorite class to be OP" are not good arguments of game design.
You talk about Sorcerers as if they got metamagic and wizard got nothing. Sorcerers knowing only 15 spells during their 20-level career might be somewhat easier to swallow if their spell list wasn't devoid of so many spells.
Let's go from the top:
Level 9: Sorcerer has a whooping 6 spells, Wizard has 18
Level 8: Sorcerer has 6, Wizard has 19
Level 7: Sorcerer has 12 (WOW), Wizard has 21
Do you see the trend? Sorcerer doesn't have spells like Forcecage, Wall of Force, Feeblemind, Maze, Mind Blank, Foresight, Prismatic Wall, and the mentioned True Polymorph and Shapechange. Not to mention Simalacrum and Clone. I am genuinely surprised that they gave Sorcerer Wish! And they know only 15 spells TOTAL while not being able to change them unless during level up (thanks community wizards-fanboys for thrashing spell versatility to the point that it was dropped).
And wizard has ALL of those AND their subclass abilities AND Ritual Casting.
No go and tell me that Sorcerer's metamagic is soooo awesome that it bridges the gap esp. with how hard they nerfed quickened spell.
Honestly, at this point it would've been better if they removed Sorcerer and made various sorcerer origins a wizard subclass.
To be honest I hate metmagic being a sorcerer thing at all. Just taking a feat and gluing it to a bad wizard doesn't make a good class, and imo it should have remained a feat for all casters. Essentially all other casters had to suffer just to keep sorcerer on life support, as it's defining feature of spontaneous casting had become the standard.
On top of that their subclasses do very little compared to most other classes which makes no sense to me. Imo sorcerer subclasses should have been some of the most changing and dramatic ones.
You talk about Sorcerers as if they got metamagic and wizard got nothing.
Can we please stop the whining at the poor Sorcerer which, despite everything that you complain about, is still one of the favourite class of players, as it is, without boosting it further ?
No go and tell me that Sorcerer's metamagic is soooo awesome that it bridges the gap esp. with how hard they nerfed quickened spell.
Apparently it is still awesome enough, see above. I have played wizards and sorcerers in both 3e and 5e, and I've never seen a real power gap on basic class abilities. As usual, depending on your campaign and its moments, one might be more powerful than the other, but it's mostly circumstantial. If you want to homebrew it, absolutely fine. If the OP is really asking for people's opinions, well here is mine, that's all.
Wizard's spell list is still part of the class abilities. Nothing can bridge that.
Guess what, in 3e Sorcerers had the same spell list as Wizards AND spontaneous spellcasting, I wonder why you didn't see a real power gap there. In 5e not only the Sorcerer doesn't have the same spell list but they also gave Wizard spontaneous spellcasting. If you don't see the gap in 5e then you are actively not looking.
Sorcerer is a cool concept, that is true but do you have any source as to the alleged "high popularity" of the class? As if popularity should give a blank check to ignore balance.
Guess what, in 3e Sorcerers had the same spell list as Wizards AND spontaneous spellcasting,
They also had an extremely limited spell list (more than in 5e), and metamagic was not restricted to them. They also got their spells 1/2 level later, and could not specialise. So all in all, fairly well balanced, again after playing both myself for years.
What? In 3e a 20th level Sorcerer knows 34 spells. In 5e Sorcerer knows 15.
In 3e Sorcerer has the access to Wizard spell list (because it was called Sorcerer/Wizard spell list). Here he has a limited one.
Metamagic was a lot more useful (IMO) when spontaneous casting was not a thing. If you had prepared all your spells into your slots, but suddenly you realize you have nothing with a range of more than 20 ft, voila! extended spell is there to save the day. With spontaneous casting, it is likely that you will have the right spell on your list so the metamagics are less useful. I also get that sorcerers only know 15 spells, but still
Metamagic was a lot more useful (IMO) when spontaneous casting was not a thing. If you had prepared all your spells into your slots, but suddenly you realize you have nothing with a range of more than 20 ft, voila! extended spell is there to save the day. With spontaneous casting, it is likely that you will have the right spell on your list so the metamagics are less useful. I also get that sorcerers only know 15 spells, but still
Yeah but Wizard still had to prepare metamagicked spells into spell slots, couldn't add them on the fly (though to be fair if you told me that there was a prestige class that allowed for that I wouldn't be surprised). That was one of the main point for Sorcerer in previous edition - if you suddenly needed to enhance one of your spells it only mattered that you had the slot whereas Wizard had to think about that beforehand.
Guess what, in 3e Sorcerers had the same spell list as Wizards AND spontaneous spellcasting,
They also had an extremely limited spell list (more than in 5e), and metamagic was not restricted to them. They also got their spells 1/2 level later, and could not specialise. So all in all, fairly well balanced, again after playing both myself for years.
What? In 3e a 20th level Sorcerer knows 34 spells. In 5e Sorcerer knows 15.
This is a ridiculous comparison, sorry. The way high level slots are used and especially the way upcasting is now possible make the comparison meaningless. I feel much less restricted in terms of sorcerer spells today than in 3e.
In 3e Sorcerer has the access to Wizard spell list (because it was called Sorcerer/Wizard spell list). Here he has a limited one.
And many, many other things have changed.
1. Upcasting was possible in 3e and very useful for spontaneous spellcasters (as opposed to wizards). The only difference is that in 5e many upcast spells have additional effects or greater damage but that itself is mitigated by the fact that in 3e they didn't need those additional effects because they improved based on your caster level. Damage spells got better based on your caster level. Buffs got additional targets as well.
2...yes, many things have changed. Like, for instance, the concentration rules. How you can claim greater versatility for Sorcerer now as opposed to 3e when in 3e you:
a) had better metamagic
b) had no concentration
c) could still upcast spells if you needed one in particular and didn't have spell slots
The problem in my personal experience is that Sorcerers are not weaker, just less fun to play. They still get all the big damage spells which bring them in line with other classes damage-wise but get no rituals and limited utility spells. I have a hard time seeing myself ever playing one outside of a combat-focused one-shot. True Poly is a perfect example, instead of the fun and creative spell that allows them to do fun stuff AND be good in combat, Sorcerers get Power word: Kill, Meteor Swarm, Psychic Scream, and other more damage focused spells. Then to top it off they get the less fun combat oriented version of the spell: Mass Polymorph. This pattern is then repeated throughout their spell list. I would have no problem with this in a videogame or some other more combat-focused tabletop game, but in DnD it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Then again, It's easily fixable by giving them rituals, a slightly expanded spell list, and giving old subclasses the expanded spells treatment from Tasha, but I get that homebrew is never the ideal solution
1. Upcasting was possible in 3e and very useful for spontaneous spellcasters (as opposed to wizards). The only difference is that in 5e many upcast spells have additional effects or greater damage but that itself is mitigated by the fact that in 3e they didn't need those additional effects because they improved based on your caster level. Damage spells got better based on your caster level. Buffs got additional targets as well.
Still upcasting was seldom used in 3e, because it had little effect, as you point out.
Because you are not comparing apples to apples. The whole game changed is is not mostly lower level, one could argue that, although you have access to higher level spells, in terms of possibility, a lvl 20 5e is at best equal to a level 15 3e. But that is true for all classes. The only thing is that, for every edition prior to 4e, the wizard was the god at really high levels, and it's not longer the case, that's all.
The upcasting was used when it was needed. It was needed rarely because many additional effects were already built-in the spell descriptions. That is not a point in favor of 5e Sorcerer's versatility. The fact that you need to cast Fireball at 5th level in order to deal 10d6 damage while 3e Sorcerer could do it just by being a level 10 spellcaster is not a point for 5e upcasting. Hell, 3e Sorc could cast Haste on 10 people and it's not even possible to do in 5e.
Yes, the system changed and every spellcaster got nerfhammer. But in terms of relative power, Sorcerer was much closer to Wizard in 3e than it is now.
In 3e Sorc had the same spell list
In 3e Sorc could upcast spells if needed, if Wizard wanted to do that, they needed to specifically assign spell slot
In 3e Sorc could apply metamagic on the fly while Wizard, again, had to prepare specific spell slot
In 5e Wizard has Ritual Casting
The relative power level between Sorcerer and Wizard skyrocketed as soon as they gave Wizard spontaneous spellcasting, removed many spells from Sorcerer's list and slashed spell known in half.
The problem in my personal experience is that Sorcerers are not weaker, just less fun to play. They still get all the big damage spells which bring them in line with other classes damage-wise but get no rituals and limited utility spells. I have a hard time seeing myself ever playing one outside of a combat-focused one-shot. True Poly is a perfect example, instead of the fun and creative spell that allows them to do fun stuff AND be good in combat, Sorcerers get Power word: Kill, Meteor Swarm, Psychic Scream, and other more damage focused spells. Then to top it off they get the less fun combat oriented version of the spell: Mass Polymorph. This pattern is then repeated throughout their spell list. I would have no problem with this in a videogame or some other more combat-focused tabletop game, but in DnD it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Then again, It's easily fixable by giving them rituals, a slightly expanded spell list, and giving old subclasses the expanded spells treatment from Tasha, but I get that homebrew is never the ideal solution
The thing is that most people do not really understand the difference between Sorcerer and Wizard at more than a cosmetic level, because they see basically the same spells. But from its inception, the Sorcerer has bean made to be a simple damage dealer for the people who wanted arcane magic and not too much preparation and maintenance work (because managing a wizard's spellbook and his daily spells is quite a bit of work). So it's an efficient damage dealer, and is not made to be versatile at all. Actually, this is probably the main reason for restricting the spell list in 5e. Seeing that, in general, 5e spells are more versatile, it compensates.
My perspective is that, indeed, it is more limited than the wizard, who is actually much better played as support/controller because of the huge versatility of choosing the right spell for the right situation. Whether you find that blaster role fun or not depends on you, if you don't want to play a sorcerer, play a wizard, but lots of people in my groups who are more damage oriented really like the sorcerer.
How are they more versatile. In comparison to what? What is the base level?
One of the big issues I find with sorcerer is the lack of origin spells combined with low spells known means that once you have picked the 'essentials' there is not much left for spells suiting the theme. You can make an extremely powerful sorcerer with the right picks, but unlike the other classes you can't just build however you like and still be effective, or try to play into your subclass rather than picking the essential spells.
I like the origin lists for the new subclasses simply due to that fact that allows them to play into their own theme without ruining their effectiveness.
How are they more versatile. In comparison to what? What is the base level?
Many spells get more powerful in terms of effect or affect more people as the slot level increases. This was purely tied to level in previous editions, now you have more choice.
You still need the access to higher level slots if you want to upcast. Which means you still have to be higher level except now you spend a higher slot whereas before you got the additional damage/targets just by being higher level.
And yes, there were some spells that didn't have additional targets if you upcast them in 3e and now they do but that is almost fully mitigated by the fact that before you didn't have concentration. If you wanted two people invisible, you cast invisibility two times, not worrying that you have to drop one. Or wait for Mass Invisibility which, yes, is higher level but massive in scope.
Ironically, the main alleged role of Sorcerer - blasting - is completely diminished by upcasting because now you HAVE to upcast if you want more dice while previously you got it just by being high level. You didn't have to waste a 5th level slot because you were a 10th level Sorcerer and it dealt 10d6.
Pardon my grumpyness but this bothers me to no end,why cant sorcerers cast shapeshift or true polymorph?, you'd think the dragon sorcerer could eventually tap into his blood and become a full dragon for a time, or perhaps the divine soul truly becoming divine and become angels,but no.
At first i could understand that but as 5th edition progressed it seemed to be actively ignored to my knowledge,as almost every spell casting class gets to get these spells eventually, warlocks,arcane clerics,wizards,bards hell even druids can get shapechange, why cant the sorcerer? Is it a concious choice??? Or is it an oversite? Please can anyone answer this for me?
Admittedly this has always been something that bothered me, these two spells make sense for this class.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
I'm not looking for hearsay or interpretations, but is there a place (say a Sage Advice column) that clearly explains the rationale for the Sorcerer's spell list? It just seems, punitive in its puniness. I like to believe the account that a lot of attention was given to 5e in the balance front, etc., but the Sorcerer has an awful shortcoming on the spell list, the polymorph being just once instance.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I think it is mostly to keep Wizards and Sorcerers different, but it sucks that the sorcerer always gets punished while the wizard has everything they could ever want or need, and more. True Polymorph or Shapechange would definitely fit for sorcerers. I personally would allow it if a player asks me.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
It's apparently just company policy to keep sorcerers from being as good as wizards.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
It's in their name, isn't it?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
One day, people will learn that sarcastic one lines on the internet should not be taken at face value.
Also wizards very much did not get weaker in 3rd Edition, while 4th Edition was sufficiently divorced from the rules of all other editions to make any statements regarding relative power levels useless. So wizards only got nerfed in 5th Edition, and even then it wasn't by much.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You talk about Sorcerers as if they got metamagic and wizard got nothing. Sorcerers knowing only 15 spells during their 20-level career might be somewhat easier to swallow if their spell list wasn't devoid of so many spells.
Let's go from the top:
Level 9: Sorcerer has a whooping 6 spells, Wizard has 18
Level 8: Sorcerer has 6, Wizard has 19
Level 7: Sorcerer has 12 (WOW), Wizard has 21
Do you see the trend? Sorcerer doesn't have spells like Forcecage, Wall of Force, Feeblemind, Maze, Mind Blank, Foresight, Prismatic Wall, and the mentioned True Polymorph and Shapechange. Not to mention Simalacrum and Clone. I am genuinely surprised that they gave Sorcerer Wish! And they know only 15 spells TOTAL while not being able to change them unless during level up (thanks community wizards-fanboys for thrashing spell versatility to the point that it was dropped).
And wizard has ALL of those AND their subclass abilities AND Ritual Casting.
No go and tell me that Sorcerer's metamagic is soooo awesome that it bridges the gap esp. with how hard they nerfed quickened spell.
Honestly, at this point it would've been better if they removed Sorcerer and made various sorcerer origins a wizard subclass.
What annoys me is that Nelthar the dragonborn draconic sorcerer chasing the power of his ancestors can't true polymorph into a dragon at the end...
But little Timmy the gnome bard who plays the flute can totally go and turn into a dragon.
Makes 0 sense to me.
To be honest I hate metmagic being a sorcerer thing at all. Just taking a feat and gluing it to a bad wizard doesn't make a good class, and imo it should have remained a feat for all casters. Essentially all other casters had to suffer just to keep sorcerer on life support, as it's defining feature of spontaneous casting had become the standard.
On top of that their subclasses do very little compared to most other classes which makes no sense to me. Imo sorcerer subclasses should have been some of the most changing and dramatic ones.
Wizard's spell list is still part of the class abilities. Nothing can bridge that.
Guess what, in 3e Sorcerers had the same spell list as Wizards AND spontaneous spellcasting, I wonder why you didn't see a real power gap there. In 5e not only the Sorcerer doesn't have the same spell list but they also gave Wizard spontaneous spellcasting. If you don't see the gap in 5e then you are actively not looking.
Sorcerer is a cool concept, that is true but do you have any source as to the alleged "high popularity" of the class? As if popularity should give a blank check to ignore balance.
What? In 3e a 20th level Sorcerer knows 34 spells. In 5e Sorcerer knows 15.
In 3e Sorcerer has the access to Wizard spell list (because it was called Sorcerer/Wizard spell list). Here he has a limited one.
Metamagic was a lot more useful (IMO) when spontaneous casting was not a thing. If you had prepared all your spells into your slots, but suddenly you realize you have nothing with a range of more than 20 ft, voila! extended spell is there to save the day. With spontaneous casting, it is likely that you will have the right spell on your list so the metamagics are less useful. I also get that sorcerers only know 15 spells, but still
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Yeah but Wizard still had to prepare metamagicked spells into spell slots, couldn't add them on the fly (though to be fair if you told me that there was a prestige class that allowed for that I wouldn't be surprised). That was one of the main point for Sorcerer in previous edition - if you suddenly needed to enhance one of your spells it only mattered that you had the slot whereas Wizard had to think about that beforehand.
1. Upcasting was possible in 3e and very useful for spontaneous spellcasters (as opposed to wizards). The only difference is that in 5e many upcast spells have additional effects or greater damage but that itself is mitigated by the fact that in 3e they didn't need those additional effects because they improved based on your caster level. Damage spells got better based on your caster level. Buffs got additional targets as well.
2...yes, many things have changed. Like, for instance, the concentration rules. How you can claim greater versatility for Sorcerer now as opposed to 3e when in 3e you:
a) had better metamagic
b) had no concentration
c) could still upcast spells if you needed one in particular and didn't have spell slots
d) had access to so much more spells
is beyond me.
The problem in my personal experience is that Sorcerers are not weaker, just less fun to play. They still get all the big damage spells which bring them in line with other classes damage-wise but get no rituals and limited utility spells. I have a hard time seeing myself ever playing one outside of a combat-focused one-shot. True Poly is a perfect example, instead of the fun and creative spell that allows them to do fun stuff AND be good in combat, Sorcerers get Power word: Kill, Meteor Swarm, Psychic Scream, and other more damage focused spells. Then to top it off they get the less fun combat oriented version of the spell: Mass Polymorph. This pattern is then repeated throughout their spell list. I would have no problem with this in a videogame or some other more combat-focused tabletop game, but in DnD it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Then again, It's easily fixable by giving them rituals, a slightly expanded spell list, and giving old subclasses the expanded spells treatment from Tasha, but I get that homebrew is never the ideal solution
The upcasting was used when it was needed. It was needed rarely because many additional effects were already built-in the spell descriptions. That is not a point in favor of 5e Sorcerer's versatility. The fact that you need to cast Fireball at 5th level in order to deal 10d6 damage while 3e Sorcerer could do it just by being a level 10 spellcaster is not a point for 5e upcasting. Hell, 3e Sorc could cast Haste on 10 people and it's not even possible to do in 5e.
Yes, the system changed and every spellcaster got nerfhammer. But in terms of relative power, Sorcerer was much closer to Wizard in 3e than it is now.
In 3e Sorc had the same spell list
In 3e Sorc could upcast spells if needed, if Wizard wanted to do that, they needed to specifically assign spell slot
In 3e Sorc could apply metamagic on the fly while Wizard, again, had to prepare specific spell slot
In 5e Wizard has Ritual Casting
The relative power level between Sorcerer and Wizard skyrocketed as soon as they gave Wizard spontaneous spellcasting, removed many spells from Sorcerer's list and slashed spell known in half.
How are they more versatile. In comparison to what? What is the base level?
One of the big issues I find with sorcerer is the lack of origin spells combined with low spells known means that once you have picked the 'essentials' there is not much left for spells suiting the theme. You can make an extremely powerful sorcerer with the right picks, but unlike the other classes you can't just build however you like and still be effective, or try to play into your subclass rather than picking the essential spells.
I like the origin lists for the new subclasses simply due to that fact that allows them to play into their own theme without ruining their effectiveness.
You still need the access to higher level slots if you want to upcast. Which means you still have to be higher level except now you spend a higher slot whereas before you got the additional damage/targets just by being higher level.
And yes, there were some spells that didn't have additional targets if you upcast them in 3e and now they do but that is almost fully mitigated by the fact that before you didn't have concentration. If you wanted two people invisible, you cast invisibility two times, not worrying that you have to drop one. Or wait for Mass Invisibility which, yes, is higher level but massive in scope.
Ironically, the main alleged role of Sorcerer - blasting - is completely diminished by upcasting because now you HAVE to upcast if you want more dice while previously you got it just by being high level. You didn't have to waste a 5th level slot because you were a 10th level Sorcerer and it dealt 10d6.