Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I've seen you mention things the PCs have heard about in previous levels. Why? Why must an epic campaign have one continuous arc from beginning to end? Life isn't like that.
Why can't something come out of nowhere at 15th level? The PCs have, by that point, likely fought two or even three Big Bads, and likely saved a large portion of the world (if not the whole world). By that point they probably have a home base, their own keep or castle, maybe they have followers, maybe even a family! They think, Wow we just saved all of Faerun, and now we can relax with our families. Maybe plant some seed in the 10 acres of land we've scraped out of the earth and start a farm. Maybe start a bard college. Maybe start a wizarding school, or even just take an apprentice.
Bunnies, and rainbows.
And then BAM! The all of existence is now threatened, and the only ones who can save literally all of existence or those PCs. One or more of them might even have to give up their very lives (and thus the enjoyment of all the nice things they've built up) to save all of existence. They weren't expecting it, and frankly they shouldn't be expecting it. That's epic in my book.
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"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I've seen you mention things the PCs have heard about in previous levels. Why? Why must an epic campaign have one continuous arc from beginning to end? Life isn't like that.
Why can't something come out of nowhere at 15th level? The PCs have, by that point, likely fought two or even three Big Bads, and likely saved a large portion of the world (if not the whole world). By that point they probably have a home base, their own keep or castle, maybe they have followers, maybe even a family! They think, Wow we just saved all of Faerun, and now we can relax with our families. Maybe plant some seed in the 10 acres of land we've scraped out of the earth and start a farm. Maybe start a bard college. Maybe start a wizarding school, or even just take an apprentice.
Bunnies, and rainbows.
And then BAM! The all of existence is now threatened, and the only ones who can save literally all of existence or those PCs. One or more of them might even have to give up their very lives (and thus the enjoyment of all the nice things they've built up) to save all of existence. They weren't expecting it, and frankly they shouldn't be expecting it. That's epic in my book.
And you are perfectly right, in fact I said (probably in a convoluted way) that a "randomized" new threat fits well, imho, if it comes from beyond the current world/plane the characters have been living.
I am not saying that a new big bad cannot come out from within the same setting,as I am not implying that they should know it is coming (all the opposite), but I think that if a setting is well done it should have its legends and mythos, from whence the DM can draw to come up with new threats for the party, but it would be slightly odd, imho, if they hadn't even heard of a legend or mythological tale of something similar before (especially if there's a bard in the party).
Then again, though, legends were just current events before they were legends, so I am aware my blanket only covers half the bed :p
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
In WotC defense: Level 15+ play means you have to have contingencies for truly world redefining spells.
Gate + Planar Travel means you can literally suck any person you want to you, and the only defense is if they have a DEITY on their side disallowing it. Think about that.
The Hraffgar the Unslayable is commanding troops deep from within his impenetrable fortress! He commands over a dozen chromatic dragons and a legion of Giants to protect him! OK our wizard casts demiplane, then spends 2 weeks casting glyph of warding with every terrible spell he can think of within the plane, set to fire on anyone who isn't one of our party members. Cleric is also preparing glyphs in the demiplane for the duration, the cleric then gates the guy in, who instantly dies, even if he makes every save to thousands of damage of magic.
True Polymorph lets you transform your companions into super-monsters. Having your friend be a pit fiend or ancient brass dragon really ups your potential for combat.
Basically if you are at this level of play, there is not enough information in a book to prepare the DM. It is going to need a lot of improv.
Now in reprimand of WotC: If they say "Oh we survey players and most of them say they end before level 16" And there's not a single published adventure past that, well yeah. Lots of players and DMs use published adventures even if they heavily modify it.
It would be like saying no one wants a car that can go over 100 mph because 99% of driving is at speeds below 100 mph. Being an accurate statistic doesn't mean you are actually drawing an accurate conclusion from it.
The fact of the matter is, at the end of our campaign, the players wanted to keep their characters to go to the next challenge. But if it involves making it up from scratch or just starting over with new characters, the second is much much easier.
In WotC defense: Level 15+ play means you have to have contingencies for truly world redefining spells.
Most of those spells aren't actually quite as potent as people often make them out to be. Gate, for example, is foiled just by "Hraffgar the Unslayable" being that creature's assumed name and it's real name being a well kept secret, or by Hraffgar ruling a layer of the Abyss or some other planar realm of its own so it can say "No" to unwanted gates.
Now in reprimand of WotC: If they say "Oh we survey players and most of them say they end before level 16" And there's not a single published adventure past that, well yeah. Lots of players and DMs use published adventures even if they heavily modify it.
WotC asked people not just when their campaigns end, but when they want them to end. The responses showed that people wanting their campaigns to go all the way to 20th level (or beyond) were not that large of a group relative to the people that want their campaigns to end earlier.
In WotC defense: Level 15+ play means you have to have contingencies for truly world redefining spells.
Gate + Planar Travel means you can literally suck any person you want to you, and the only defense is if they have a DEITY on their side disallowing it. Think about that.
The Hraffgar the Unslayable is commanding troops deep from within his impenetrable fortress! He commands over a dozen chromatic dragons and a legion of Giants to protect him! OK our wizard casts demiplane, then spends 2 weeks casting glyph of warding with every terrible spell he can think of within the plane, set to fire on anyone who isn't one of our party members. Cleric is also preparing glyphs in the demiplane for the duration, the cleric then gates the guy in, who instantly dies, even if he makes every save to thousands of damage of magic.
True Polymorph lets you transform your companions into super-monsters. Having your friend be a pit fiend or ancient brass dragon really ups your potential for combat.
Basically if you are at this level of play, there is not enough information in a book to prepare the DM. It is going to need a lot of improv.
Now in reprimand of WotC: If they say "Oh we survey players and most of them say they end before level 16" And there's not a single published adventure past that, well yeah. Lots of players and DMs use published adventures even if they heavily modify it.
It would be like saying no one wants a car that can go over 100 mph because 99% of driving is at speeds below 100 mph. Being an accurate statistic doesn't mean you are actually drawing an accurate conclusion from it.
The fact of the matter is, at the end of our campaign, the players wanted to keep their characters to go to the next challenge. But if it involves making it up from scratch or just starting over with new characters, the second is much much easier.
Spells are absolutely powerful at that level, however that entire combo (and you did a great job putting that together) is shut down by the equally powerful Antimagic Field, a well-timed Counterspell, or by smashing the caster to break their concentration.
In the epic tier, PCs are likely going to be going up against extremely powerful creatures, including demigods, heroic champions, and perhaps even full-fledged god. A lot of these battles will likely be on different planes all together, making something like Gate difficult to pull off.
Creatures, monsters, and all the baddies in the world are going smart enough to know that they need these tools in order to shut down magic. If they aren’t smart enough, the forces controlling
On paper these spells seem impossible to manage, in practice though the PCs are going to have a heck of a time trying to pull that all off without one part of it going wrong.
Spells are absolutely powerful at that level, however that entire combo (and you did a great job putting that together) is shut down by the equally powerful Antimagic Field, a well-timed Counterspell, or by smashing the caster to break their concentration.
You can't counterspell someone on another plane of existence, they are farther than 60' away until the spell is finished. Similarly, hitting the caster of gate does nothing. The concentration maintains the portal, if you break it, you just prevented your backup from getting to you. Also you have no time, as soon as you appear you will trigger the 100 glyphs of DOOM.
You can protect yourself with forbiddance, but unless your guy stays in that dungeon at all times, he will at some point be vulnerable, which a divination spell would likely reveal.
Its a much tougher game to manage, and teleport and planar travel being available really means the DM has to have a LARGE contingency.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I've seen you mention things the PCs have heard about in previous levels. Why? Why must an epic campaign have one continuous arc from beginning to end? Life isn't like that.
Why can't something come out of nowhere at 15th level? The PCs have, by that point, likely fought two or even three Big Bads, and likely saved a large portion of the world (if not the whole world). By that point they probably have a home base, their own keep or castle, maybe they have followers, maybe even a family! They think, Wow we just saved all of Faerun, and now we can relax with our families. Maybe plant some seed in the 10 acres of land we've scraped out of the earth and start a farm. Maybe start a bard college. Maybe start a wizarding school, or even just take an apprentice.
Bunnies, and rainbows.
And then BAM! The all of existence is now threatened, and the only ones who can save literally all of existence or those PCs. One or more of them might even have to give up their very lives (and thus the enjoyment of all the nice things they've built up) to save all of existence. They weren't expecting it, and frankly they shouldn't be expecting it. That's epic in my book.
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
In WotC defense: Level 15+ play means you have to have contingencies for truly world redefining spells.
Gate + Planar Travel means you can literally suck any person you want to you, and the only defense is if they have a DEITY on their side disallowing it. Think about that.
The Hraffgar the Unslayable is commanding troops deep from within his impenetrable fortress! He commands over a dozen chromatic dragons and a legion of Giants to protect him! OK our wizard casts demiplane, then spends 2 weeks casting glyph of warding with every terrible spell he can think of within the plane, set to fire on anyone who isn't one of our party members. Cleric is also preparing glyphs in the demiplane for the duration, the cleric then gates the guy in, who instantly dies, even if he makes every save to thousands of damage of magic.
True Polymorph lets you transform your companions into super-monsters. Having your friend be a pit fiend or ancient brass dragon really ups your potential for combat.
Basically if you are at this level of play, there is not enough information in a book to prepare the DM. It is going to need a lot of improv.
Now in reprimand of WotC: If they say "Oh we survey players and most of them say they end before level 16" And there's not a single published adventure past that, well yeah. Lots of players and DMs use published adventures even if they heavily modify it.
It would be like saying no one wants a car that can go over 100 mph because 99% of driving is at speeds below 100 mph. Being an accurate statistic doesn't mean you are actually drawing an accurate conclusion from it.
The fact of the matter is, at the end of our campaign, the players wanted to keep their characters to go to the next challenge. But if it involves making it up from scratch or just starting over with new characters, the second is much much easier.
Most of those spells aren't actually quite as potent as people often make them out to be. Gate, for example, is foiled just by "Hraffgar the Unslayable" being that creature's assumed name and it's real name being a well kept secret, or by Hraffgar ruling a layer of the Abyss or some other planar realm of its own so it can say "No" to unwanted gates.
WotC asked people not just when their campaigns end, but when they want them to end. The responses showed that people wanting their campaigns to go all the way to 20th level (or beyond) were not that large of a group relative to the people that want their campaigns to end earlier.