If you're a second level warlock and you're getting hit often enough in combat that getting advantage on concentration saves is extremely useful for you, I'd say that you probably ought to reevaluate your tactics.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Eldritch Mind is 1/3rd of a very commonly taken feat (War Caster). This feat can easily be taken by Variant Human or Custom Lineage characters right at level 1. If you take it at level 2 as a Warlock, that's giving up half of your precious invocations for what is effectively going to be advantage on your saving throws against losing hex or spirit shroud. Warlocks already have very few spell slots, so this will just help you keep up the spells you can cast. This eldritch invocation is nowhere near being overpowered.
Gift of the Protectors is a good invocation, but it also isn't OP. First, it's restricted to Pact of the Tome Warlocks (a bit more than 1 in 4 warlocks). Second, it is very much a niche invocation, as it is a team-support invocation, which there are very few of. Third, you may have more uses of this feature than you have people to protect with it if your party is few enough in numbers.
Both of these are useful, but neither are OP by any means.
Tasha's doesn't have much power creep. The only real examples of power creep that should have been fixed are the fact that PHB/XGtE Sorcerer and Ranger subclasses don't get spell lists and the Order of the Scribes subclass.
Since when are we dismissing keeping spells up, when you have limited to begin with, as being so so-so? Particularly for warlocks, there’s a reason most warlocks eventually take warcaster.
someone earlier said “just keep the warlock back 60ft”. Sure, you could do that, but that takes away from a chunk of what makes warlocks so good. They are D8 for a reason. Not D6 like wizards and sorcerers whom should stay back. But D8 like bards, clerics, and druids.
sure warcaster is a ton better. But if you have this option, and then can then use your ASI/Feat for something else. That’s a no brainer.
THROWING OUT HOMEBREW RULES:
standard array/point buy. How helpful is agonizing blast? Not as much as everyone here implies. Agonizing blast is a sure thing when you homebrew roll for stats. But when you don’t. Honestly there are better things to do until your agonizing blast becomes worthwhile (+4 or better).
the invocation in question here. Allows you an additional feat/ASI at level 4/8 (whenever you would have taken warcaster) that can then be used elsewhere to make your warlock useful/how you envision them.
many of the other invocations also, I’d like to point out, aren’t particularly good or useful unless you are in a campaign that goes all the way to level 20.
so, something EVERYONE needs to factor in and keep in mind. 1. Rules (homebrew or not) 2. Campaign 3. Level ranges
If you're a second level warlock and you're getting hit often enough in combat that getting advantage on concentration saves is extremely useful for you, I'd say that you probably ought to reevaluate your tactics.
You don’t encounter short bows often huh? Or do your DMs only target melee characters first?
so, something EVERYONE needs to factor in and keep in mind. 1. Rules (homebrew or not) 2. Campaign 3. Level ranges
Nobody suggested homebrew. And given how many official methods there now are to generate character stats, I don't even know what the point of homebrew would be in that regard. In general, the fact that circumstances will sometimes make one mechanic better than another is not an indication that something is overpowered - on the contrary, something not always being the absolute best choice is a sign of balance.
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someone earlier said “just keep the warlock back 60ft”. Sure, you could do that, but that takes away from a chunk of what makes warlocks so good. They are D8 for a reason. Not D6 like wizards and sorcerers whom should stay back. But D8 like bards, clerics, and druids.
A d8 is still a bad hit die. The only reason wizards and sorcerers get saddled with even worse HP is because they're capable of unloading far more damage in a single fight and also have more escape tools. Clerics and druids get medium or heavy armor to let them stay safe at close range.
With no fighting styles, light armor, a reliance on concentration spells and limited escape tools there's very little incentive for a warlock to get close to anything. The main reason is going for a melee build, and to make that work anywhere close to as well as an Eldritch Blast build you really need to go Hexblade for Hex Warrior, medium armor and Shield.
sure warcaster is a ton better. But if you have this option, and then can then use your ASI/Feat for something else. That’s a no brainer.
Or you could pick one of the better invocations and still use the ASI or feat for something else.
standard array/point buy. How helpful is agonizing blast? Not as much as everyone here implies. Agonizing blast is a sure thing when you homebrew roll for stats. But when you don’t. Honestly there are better things to do until your agonizing blast becomes worthwhile (+4 or better).
There no other invocation that provides anywhere close to as much damage. A +3 bonus is a huge increase to a spell that averages 5.5 per hit and unlike every other spellcaster, Warlocks get to add that bonus multiple times.
You don’t encounter short bows often huh? Or do your DMs only target melee characters first?
120 foot range from Eldritch Blast > 80 feet and as far as I know there's no low CR monsters that can use multiattack with a shortbow. If you're fighting indoors you probably don't have that much space but it's almost guaranteed you can just round a corner or leave the room to stay safe; just pop back in during your turn, cast a spell, and leave again. Even if you've got nowhere to hide and have to stay in range, it's easy to get half cover from your friends.
This is only a serious concern if you find yourself alone in a small, closed off room. Not exactly a common circumstance.
I would never select Eldritch Mind. Warcaster is so much better and doesn't take up an Invocation slot that is better spent on other things.
Uhhh...yeah....By the time you reach, say 9th level, with a Warlock, you have 5 Invocations, and 2 ASI's. At 12th level, it is 6 and 3. To suggest burning an ASI, especially before a char has a 20 in CHA, when one has so many more Invocations, is just plain silly.
I would never select Eldritch Mind. Warcaster is so much better and doesn't take up an Invocation slot that is better spent on other things.
Uhhh...yeah....By the time you reach, say 9th level, with a Warlock, you have 5 Invocations, and 2 ASI's. At 12th level, it is 6 and 3. To suggest burning an ASI, especially before a char has a 20 in CHA, when one has so many more Invocations, is just plain silly.
Is it? Is War Caster worth that much less than the difference between +5 and +4 in Cha? Because if it is, getting about half of it from an invocation can't be all that amazing either.
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I would never select Eldritch Mind. Warcaster is so much better and doesn't take up an Invocation slot that is better spent on other things.
Uhhh...yeah....By the time you reach, say 9th level, with a Warlock, you have 5 Invocations, and 2 ASI's. At 12th level, it is 6 and 3. To suggest burning an ASI, especially before a char has a 20 in CHA, when one has so many more Invocations, is just plain silly.
Is it? Is War Caster worth that much less than the difference between +5 and +4 in Cha? Because if it is, getting about half of it from an invocation can't be all that amazing either.
You have at least twice as many Invocations as ASI's, until something like 16th level. Invocations are not as valuable as ASI's. And my original point was that when comparing Invocations to Invocations, the ones I illuminated are out of whack. I did not bring ASI's into this, until I mentioned Warcaster. Bottom line, EM is far more valuable to a Warlock, when one looks at its "cost". That is what I said in the beginning, and it has not changed.
I would never select Eldritch Mind. Warcaster is so much better and doesn't take up an Invocation slot that is better spent on other things.
Uhhh...yeah....By the time you reach, say 9th level, with a Warlock, you have 5 Invocations, and 2 ASI's. At 12th level, it is 6 and 3. To suggest burning an ASI, especially before a char has a 20 in CHA, when one has so many more Invocations, is just plain silly.
Is it? Is War Caster worth that much less than the difference between +5 and +4 in Cha? Because if it is, getting about half of it from an invocation can't be all that amazing either.
You have at least twice as many Invocations as ASI's, until something like 16th level. Invocations are not as valuable as ASI's. And my original point was that when comparing Invocations to Invocations, the ones I illuminated are out of whack. I did not bring ASI's into this, until I mentioned Warcaster. Bottom line, EM is far more valuable to a Warlock, when one looks at its "cost". That is what I said in the beginning, and it has not changed.
I wasn't really commenting on what you said in the beginning. I was commenting on the fact that it feels a little inconsistent to on the one hard argue Eldritch Mind is so great that it outshines all but a couple of other invocations while on the other dismissing a feat that gives twice as much as clearly inferior to increasing your highest stat bonus by one point.
Having more invocations than ASIs isn't necessarily all that meaningful given how amazingly strong a pretty decent number of them are. Agonizing Blast is +3 damage to an already excellent cantrip, and that damage bonus will go up as the Warlock levels and/or acquires items. That blows most feats out of the water. Spending an invocation choice in order to free up a feat choice is only a no-brainer if all invocation choices are inferior to what you gain with that feat choice. The cost of Eldritch Mind is not getting another, better invocation. The profit isn't whatever feat you take instead of War Caster. The profit is the value of that feat minus the value of what War Caster gives in addition to Eldritch Mind. Given how useful some of these invocations are, I really don't see how that profit absolutely exceeds that cost.
And if I do go back to a specific earlier comment of yours, that Eldritch Mind is worth roughly +5 to Concentration checks, there's also Resilience, particularly if you have an odd stat in Constitution. That's +3 and increasing to all Constitution-based checks from level 5 on, and if you did have an odd stat that becomes +4 and +1 hp/level. If I had that big a problem with Concentration checks, some more hp to soak the damage that causes all those checks sure seems tasty.
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Since when are we dismissing keeping spells up, when you have limited to begin with, as being so so-so? Particularly for warlocks, there’s a reason most warlocks eventually take warcaster.
My point was that losing concentration is a much bigger deal for a Warlock than it is for almost any other caster in the game (excluding Rangers). It would be OP to give Wizards advantage on all Con saves without taking a feat or expending a resource, but it isn't for Warlocks, as their effectiveness mostly hinges on keeping up concentration.
not a big module playing crowd it seems.
What do modules have to do with any of this? This is just a red herring.
I’ve gotten enough forum bans arguing logic against emotion.
IME, the people who argue using emotion instead of logic are the ones who get banned the most.
If you're a second level warlock and you're getting hit often enough in combat that getting advantage on concentration saves is extremely useful for you, I'd say that you probably ought to reevaluate your tactics.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Since when are we dismissing keeping spells up, when you have limited to begin with, as being so so-so? Particularly for warlocks, there’s a reason most warlocks eventually take warcaster.
someone earlier said “just keep the warlock back 60ft”. Sure, you could do that, but that takes away from a chunk of what makes warlocks so good. They are D8 for a reason. Not D6 like wizards and sorcerers whom should stay back. But D8 like bards, clerics, and druids.
sure warcaster is a ton better. But if you have this option, and then can then use your ASI/Feat for something else. That’s a no brainer.
THROWING OUT HOMEBREW RULES:
standard array/point buy. How helpful is agonizing blast? Not as much as everyone here implies. Agonizing blast is a sure thing when you homebrew roll for stats. But when you don’t. Honestly there are better things to do until your agonizing blast becomes worthwhile (+4 or better).
the invocation in question here. Allows you an additional feat/ASI at level 4/8 (whenever you would have taken warcaster) that can then be used elsewhere to make your warlock useful/how you envision them.
many of the other invocations also, I’d like to point out, aren’t particularly good or useful unless you are in a campaign that goes all the way to level 20.
so, something EVERYONE needs to factor in and keep in mind. 1. Rules (homebrew or not) 2. Campaign 3. Level ranges
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You don’t encounter short bows often huh? Or do your DMs only target melee characters first?
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Nobody suggested homebrew. And given how many official methods there now are to generate character stats, I don't even know what the point of homebrew would be in that regard. In general, the fact that circumstances will sometimes make one mechanic better than another is not an indication that something is overpowered - on the contrary, something not always being the absolute best choice is a sign of balance.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
A d8 is still a bad hit die. The only reason wizards and sorcerers get saddled with even worse HP is because they're capable of unloading far more damage in a single fight and also have more escape tools. Clerics and druids get medium or heavy armor to let them stay safe at close range.
With no fighting styles, light armor, a reliance on concentration spells and limited escape tools there's very little incentive for a warlock to get close to anything. The main reason is going for a melee build, and to make that work anywhere close to as well as an Eldritch Blast build you really need to go Hexblade for Hex Warrior, medium armor and Shield.
Or you could pick one of the better invocations and still use the ASI or feat for something else.
There no other invocation that provides anywhere close to as much damage. A +3 bonus is a huge increase to a spell that averages 5.5 per hit and unlike every other spellcaster, Warlocks get to add that bonus multiple times.
120 foot range from Eldritch Blast > 80 feet and as far as I know there's no low CR monsters that can use multiattack with a shortbow. If you're fighting indoors you probably don't have that much space but it's almost guaranteed you can just round a corner or leave the room to stay safe; just pop back in during your turn, cast a spell, and leave again. Even if you've got nowhere to hide and have to stay in range, it's easy to get half cover from your friends.
This is only a serious concern if you find yourself alone in a small, closed off room. Not exactly a common circumstance.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
....
not a big module playing crowd it seems.
I’ve gotten enough forum bans arguing logic against emotion.
*walks away*
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Uhhh...yeah....By the time you reach, say 9th level, with a Warlock, you have 5 Invocations, and 2 ASI's. At 12th level, it is 6 and 3. To suggest burning an ASI, especially before a char has a 20 in CHA, when one has so many more Invocations, is just plain silly.
Is it? Is War Caster worth that much less than the difference between +5 and +4 in Cha? Because if it is, getting about half of it from an invocation can't be all that amazing either.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
You have at least twice as many Invocations as ASI's, until something like 16th level. Invocations are not as valuable as ASI's. And my original point was that when comparing Invocations to Invocations, the ones I illuminated are out of whack. I did not bring ASI's into this, until I mentioned Warcaster. Bottom line, EM is far more valuable to a Warlock, when one looks at its "cost". That is what I said in the beginning, and it has not changed.
I wasn't really commenting on what you said in the beginning. I was commenting on the fact that it feels a little inconsistent to on the one hard argue Eldritch Mind is so great that it outshines all but a couple of other invocations while on the other dismissing a feat that gives twice as much as clearly inferior to increasing your highest stat bonus by one point.
Having more invocations than ASIs isn't necessarily all that meaningful given how amazingly strong a pretty decent number of them are. Agonizing Blast is +3 damage to an already excellent cantrip, and that damage bonus will go up as the Warlock levels and/or acquires items. That blows most feats out of the water. Spending an invocation choice in order to free up a feat choice is only a no-brainer if all invocation choices are inferior to what you gain with that feat choice. The cost of Eldritch Mind is not getting another, better invocation. The profit isn't whatever feat you take instead of War Caster. The profit is the value of that feat minus the value of what War Caster gives in addition to Eldritch Mind. Given how useful some of these invocations are, I really don't see how that profit absolutely exceeds that cost.
And if I do go back to a specific earlier comment of yours, that Eldritch Mind is worth roughly +5 to Concentration checks, there's also Resilience, particularly if you have an odd stat in Constitution. That's +3 and increasing to all Constitution-based checks from level 5 on, and if you did have an odd stat that becomes +4 and +1 hp/level. If I had that big a problem with Concentration checks, some more hp to soak the damage that causes all those checks sure seems tasty.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
My point was that losing concentration is a much bigger deal for a Warlock than it is for almost any other caster in the game (excluding Rangers). It would be OP to give Wizards advantage on all Con saves without taking a feat or expending a resource, but it isn't for Warlocks, as their effectiveness mostly hinges on keeping up concentration.
What do modules have to do with any of this? This is just a red herring.
IME, the people who argue using emotion instead of logic are the ones who get banned the most.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms