It's not just +3 AC... a 7 AC vs. a 4 would be irrelevant. It's that the AC is 18. This is a very high target number to hit for the low level parties that normally encounter these types of creatures. If you assume a +2 proficiency bonus (true at low level) and say +3 to the stat, a 15 AC is hit 55% of the time (10+5 = hit). The AC 18 is only hit if a 13 or higher is rolled, or 40% of the time.
Figuring about 7 damage per hit at low level (d6 or d8 damage with +2 or +3 bonus, approximately), to take out a 22 hp gnoll would require, on average, 3 hits, or about 5 swings total (55% of 5 swings is darn close to 3 hits). To take out an 11 hp hobbie would only take 2 hits, but at 40% to hit would take the same 5 swings total (40% of 5 swings is 2 hits).
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
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I am hopeful someone here understands the Challenge Rating equation better than I do and can explain it to me.
Made a video about this very thing. Don't try and understand it. It's a broken system. Just use whatever monster fits best and make some changes if they make sense. Nothing wrong with a full plate gnoll runnin' around with 18 AC. Nothing wrong with a hobgoblin that's been through hell and back, with 30 hp.
Well according to the DMG the CR for each of these guys is calculated as so.
Gnoll: Defensive CR: They have 22hp and 15ac giving them a defensive CR of 1/4 Offensive CR: A gnolls average damage per round is 6 with a +4 attack bonus. According to the DMG the Rampage trait increases their average damage to 8. Giving them an offensive CR of 1/2. Overall CR: Average of the above two is 3/8, we round this to the nearest CR, as it's exactly half way between 1/4 and 1/2, I guess they rounded up to give a CR of 1/2
Hobgoblin: Defensive CR: They have 11hp and 18ac, giving them a defensive CR of 1/2 Offensive CR: With Martial Advantage, their average damage per round is 12 with a +3 attack bonus, giving them an offensive CR of 1 Overall CR: Average of the above two is 3/4, we round this to the nearest CR, as it's exactly half way between 1/2 and 1, I guess they rounded down to give a CR of 1/2
Now I bet you're asking, "Why have they rounded the Gnolls up but rounded the Hobgoblins down?". The DMG says you round up OR down to the nearest CR, but it doesn't specify what you do if you're exactly half way between two CR's. They might have rounded Hobgoblins down in order to have different 'tiers' of Goblinoid enemies. Goblin's are 1/4 CR, Hobgoblin's are 1/2 CR and Bugbears are 1 CR.
Well according to the DMG the CR for each of these guys is calculated as so.
Gnoll: Defensive CR: They have 22hp and 15ac giving them a defensive CR of 1/4 Offensive CR: A gnolls average damage per round is 6 with a +4 attack bonus. According to the DMG the Rampage trait increases their average damage to 8. Giving them an offensive CR of 1/2. Overall CR: Average of the above two is 3/8, we round this to the nearest CR, as it's exactly half way between 1/4 and 1/2, I guess they rounded up to give a CR of 1/2
Hobgoblin: Defensive CR: They have 11hp and 18ac, giving them a defensive CR of 1/2 Offensive CR: With Martial Advantage, their average damage per round is 12 with a +3 attack bonus, giving them an offensive CR of 1 Overall CR: Average of the above two is 3/4, we round this to the nearest CR, as it's exactly half way between 1/2 and 1, I guess they rounded down to give a CR of 1/2
Now I bet you're asking, "Why have they rounded the Gnolls up but rounded the Hobgoblins down?". The DMG says you round up OR down to the nearest CR, but it doesn't specify what you do if you're exactly half way between two CR's. They might have rounded Hobgoblins down in order to have different 'tiers' of Goblinoid enemies. Goblin's are 1/4 CR, Hobgoblin's are 1/2 CR and Bugbears are 1 CR.
Not to mention that the CR calc in the DMG is far less number crunchy than the one used by the WoTC staff, so there could be other factors that are calculated making Gnolls go "up" in CR and Hobs be "down" in CR
Not to mention that the CR calc in the DMG is far less number crunchy than the one used by the WoTC staff, so there could be other factors that are calculated making Gnolls go "up" in CR and Hobs be "down" in CR
I have heard that mentioned a number of times, but I have never seen any proof of it. At this stage, I honestly do not believe it's true, I think a lot of CRs (especially the high ones) were made by judgement call, not that I see anything wrong with this as, especially as you increase in levels, the circumstances of the fight matter almost as much as the precise power of the monsters.
And one thing which is never taken into account is the preparedness of monsters vs. players. In most campaigns that I've participated in, players usually have some edge as they are the aggressors, even in settings more "evolved" than plain dungeons. But as soon as you set up a reverse ambush (which the players always strongly resist, and you have to be careful not to fall into the DM's fiat here), the encounter difficulty goes up by at least 2-3 levels anyway.
both Chris and Jeremy have talked about it. and if it is as they say an internal thing.... you're never going to see it
I think this is what happened to my players, they cast a sleep spell on 3 gnolls (I rounded hit points to 25) and rolled 22 hit points which would drop 2 hobgoblins...and it dropped zero gnolls. They panicked and ran, after the session I was looking at CRs and came across the Hobgoblin Gnoll conundrum.
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The hit points seem high to me, Gnoll has 5d8 (22) HP and the Hobgoblin only 2D8+2 (11) that's double.
Granted the hobgoblin has 3 more AC, however the higher HP make Gnolls much more likely to be unaffected by 1st level AOE spells like sleep.
I am hopeful someone here understands the Challenge Rating equation better than I do and can explain it to me.
thanks
Reference:
Gnoll Stat Block
Hobgoblin Stat BLock
Avid DnD Player since 1977
It's not just +3 AC... a 7 AC vs. a 4 would be irrelevant. It's that the AC is 18. This is a very high target number to hit for the low level parties that normally encounter these types of creatures. If you assume a +2 proficiency bonus (true at low level) and say +3 to the stat, a 15 AC is hit 55% of the time (10+5 = hit). The AC 18 is only hit if a 13 or higher is rolled, or 40% of the time.
Figuring about 7 damage per hit at low level (d6 or d8 damage with +2 or +3 bonus, approximately), to take out a 22 hp gnoll would require, on average, 3 hits, or about 5 swings total (55% of 5 swings is darn close to 3 hits). To take out an 11 hp hobbie would only take 2 hits, but at 40% to hit would take the same 5 swings total (40% of 5 swings is 2 hits).
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I agree with the above. additional, as @Lyxen said, the martial advantage can make the hobgoblins deal a considerable amount more damage.
if anything, I think hobgoblins are more powerful.
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Made a video about this very thing. Don't try and understand it. It's a broken system. Just use whatever monster fits best and make some changes if they make sense. Nothing wrong with a full plate gnoll runnin' around with 18 AC. Nothing wrong with a hobgoblin that's been through hell and back, with 30 hp.
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Well according to the DMG the CR for each of these guys is calculated as so.
Gnoll:
Defensive CR: They have 22hp and 15ac giving them a defensive CR of 1/4
Offensive CR: A gnolls average damage per round is 6 with a +4 attack bonus. According to the DMG the Rampage trait increases their average damage to 8. Giving them an offensive CR of 1/2.
Overall CR: Average of the above two is 3/8, we round this to the nearest CR, as it's exactly half way between 1/4 and 1/2, I guess they rounded up to give a CR of 1/2
Hobgoblin:
Defensive CR: They have 11hp and 18ac, giving them a defensive CR of 1/2
Offensive CR: With Martial Advantage, their average damage per round is 12 with a +3 attack bonus, giving them an offensive CR of 1
Overall CR: Average of the above two is 3/4, we round this to the nearest CR, as it's exactly half way between 1/2 and 1, I guess they rounded down to give a CR of 1/2
Now I bet you're asking, "Why have they rounded the Gnolls up but rounded the Hobgoblins down?". The DMG says you round up OR down to the nearest CR, but it doesn't specify what you do if you're exactly half way between two CR's. They might have rounded Hobgoblins down in order to have different 'tiers' of Goblinoid enemies. Goblin's are 1/4 CR, Hobgoblin's are 1/2 CR and Bugbears are 1 CR.
Not to mention that the CR calc in the DMG is far less number crunchy than the one used by the WoTC staff, so there could be other factors that are calculated making Gnolls go "up" in CR and Hobs be "down" in CR
both Chris and Jeremy have talked about it. and if it is as they say an internal thing.... you're never going to see it
I think this is what happened to my players, they cast a sleep spell on 3 gnolls (I rounded hit points to 25) and rolled 22 hit points which would drop 2 hobgoblins...and it dropped zero gnolls. They panicked and ran, after the session I was looking at CRs and came across the Hobgoblin Gnoll conundrum.
Avid DnD Player since 1977