I don't completely disagree with you BioWizard, but when it comes to biology in D&D I am sure you have noticed that a lot of creatures don't work as they would in the real world. The Races that have been published break all manner of real world rules of biology and physics. Genasi are a really good example of creatures that should not exist yet are playable in D&D. How does a human mate with an elemental?! Evolution in D&D is thrown right out the window with races being created by divine powers fully formed and developed.
Yes, some semblance of reality must be maintained for us humans to work within the premise, but I honestly don't see how small humanoids being strong is more disruptive than humans with fire for hair or gemstone growing out of their skin.
You don't get to pick and choose the science. Biology and bi-mechanics are as immutable as physics. You can state the opposite as much as you like. You will be wrong every time.
I don't completely disagree with you BioWizard, but when it comes to biology in D&D I am sure you have noticed that a lot of creatures don't work as they would in the real world. The Races that have been published break all manner of real world rules of biology and physics. Genasi are a really good example of creatures that should not exist yet are playable in D&D. How does a human mate with an elemental?! Evolution in D&D is thrown right out the window with races being created by divine powers fully formed and developed.
Yes, some semblance of reality must be maintained for us humans to work within the premise, but I honestly don't see how small humanoids being strong is more disruptive than humans with fire for hair or gemstone growing out of their skin.
You don't get to pick and choose the science. Biology and bi-mechanics are as immutable as physics. You can state the opposite as much as you like. You will be wrong every time.
"You don't get to pick and choose the science"
So I presume in your world, magic isn't real?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
I don't completely disagree with you BioWizard, but when it comes to biology in D&D I am sure you have noticed that a lot of creatures don't work as they would in the real world. The Races that have been published break all manner of real world rules of biology and physics. Genasi are a really good example of creatures that should not exist yet are playable in D&D. How does a human mate with an elemental?! Evolution in D&D is thrown right out the window with races being created by divine powers fully formed and developed.
Yes, some semblance of reality must be maintained for us humans to work within the premise, but I honestly don't see how small humanoids being strong is more disruptive than humans with fire for hair or gemstone growing out of their skin.
You don't get to pick and choose the science. Biology and bi-mechanics are as immutable as physics. You can state the opposite as much as you like. You will be wrong every time.
"You don't get to pick and choose the science"
So I presume in your world, magic isn't real?
Have any peer-reviewed papers on the statistical distribution of strength (measured by bench press?) of orcs and gnomes?
I don't completely disagree with you BioWizard, but when it comes to biology in D&D I am sure you have noticed that a lot of creatures don't work as they would in the real world. The Races that have been published break all manner of real world rules of biology and physics. Genasi are a really good example of creatures that should not exist yet are playable in D&D. How does a human mate with an elemental?! Evolution in D&D is thrown right out the window with races being created by divine powers fully formed and developed.
Yes, some semblance of reality must be maintained for us humans to work within the premise, but I honestly don't see how small humanoids being strong is more disruptive than humans with fire for hair or gemstone growing out of their skin.
You don't get to pick and choose the science. Biology and bi-mechanics are as immutable as physics. You can state the opposite as much as you like. You will be wrong every time.
"You don't get to pick and choose the science"
So I presume in your world, magic isn't real?
LOL I have Vince on mute so I didn't see this gem.
D&D blatantly ignores biology and physics in numerous ways. A person that falls into lava will not fully recover after 8 hours of sleep. Giants should die as they are crushed by the weight of their own bodies. Dragons are some how capable of flight. Centaurs are ridiculous in the extreme. Fireballs create the exact same amount of heat in a 20 radius but doesn't affect anything at all that is immediately outside that range.
If you and D&D can pick and choose the science, so can I and anyone else. It is a magical fantasy game written by people that have chosen to ignore science for the sake of fantastical fun.
We need some sort of common frame of reference for things like what is fire, what is ice, what is acid, or else the game would become literally unplayable, as you have to stop with every noun or verb and explain to the players of the game what the word means in your world.
What is magic? Oh oh, I've made the game literally unplayable.
I don't completely disagree with you BioWizard, but when it comes to biology in D&D I am sure you have noticed that a lot of creatures don't work as they would in the real world. The Races that have been published break all manner of real world rules of biology and physics. Genasi are a really good example of creatures that should not exist yet are playable in D&D. How does a human mate with an elemental?! Evolution in D&D is thrown right out the window with races being created by divine powers fully formed and developed.
Yes, some semblance of reality must be maintained for us humans to work within the premise, but I honestly don't see how small humanoids being strong is more disruptive than humans with fire for hair or gemstone growing out of their skin.
You don't get to pick and choose the science. Biology and bi-mechanics are as immutable as physics. You can state the opposite as much as you like. You will be wrong every time.
"You don't get to pick and choose the science"
So I presume in your world, magic isn't real?
Have any peer-reviewed papers on the statistical distribution of strength (measured by bench press?) of orcs and gnomes?
For some reason the science papers I read haven't covered that topic, seems like a real oversight to me.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
You don't get to pick and choose the science. Biology and bi-mechanics are as immutable as physics. You can state the opposite as much as you like. You will be wrong every time.
Worst D&D game ever:
Wizard: I cast Feather Fall and float down safely.
DM: Gravity is immutable. You plunge to your death.
Fighter: With the mighty strength granted to me by this Belt of Giant Strength, I pick up that boulder.
I don't completely disagree with you BioWizard, but when it comes to biology in D&D I am sure you have noticed that a lot of creatures don't work as they would in the real world. The Races that have been published break all manner of real world rules of biology and physics. Genasi are a really good example of creatures that should not exist yet are playable in D&D. How does a human mate with an elemental?! Evolution in D&D is thrown right out the window with races being created by divine powers fully formed and developed.
Yes, some semblance of reality must be maintained for us humans to work within the premise, but I honestly don't see how small humanoids being strong is more disruptive than humans with fire for hair or gemstone growing out of their skin.
You don't get to pick and choose the science. Biology and bi-mechanics are as immutable as physics. You can state the opposite as much as you like. You will be wrong every time.
"You don't get to pick and choose the science"
So I presume in your world, magic isn't real?
Have any peer-reviewed papers on the statistical distribution of strength (measured by bench press?) of orcs and gnomes?
Listen, gnomes dont exist so we know nothing about their biological composition or anatomy. They are also in a fantasy world where the whole point is for it to be UNLIKE real life. Also, dwarves exist, why cant my gnome be similar to a dwarf? Humans are born in all shapes and sizes so it makes sense that gnomes can as well. This entire thread is silly.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Listen, gnomes dont exist so we know nothing about their biological composition or anatomy. They are also in a fantasy world where the whole point is for it to be UNLIKE real life. Also, dwarves exist, why cant my gnome be similar to a dwarf? Humans are born in all shapes and sizes so it makes sense that gnomes can as well. This entire thread is silly.
Since you believe this entire thread is silly, why are you participating in it?
I keep hearing this argument that I’m complaining about questionable science in a fantasy world.
Of course, people are not going to read back to see that I’ve already addressed this. I anticipate that I’m going to have to keep repeating myself on this point ad nauseum.
First off, the claim that it is a fantasy world and that makes anything permissible is obviously flawed. I need not say anything more.
It is a shared world. Could you make wagons fly? Sure. Could you make all wagons soft, spongey, the size of your fist, and taste good? It is a fantasy world, so okay. Could you keep making these kinds of changes? Maybe rocks have PTSD and taste like harp music? Maybe harp music has wheels and carries elephants down lemon sounding butterscotch?
Clearly, just because it is fantasy doesn’t mean everything is possible.
People come to the game expecting things to work according to science. When those things don’t, then they need to be explained. An explanation can be as simple as “it’s magic.” Why can dragons fly? “It’s magic.” That’s okay. But, that might require other explanations. “Why are dragons so magical?” Well, in DND, there’s a huge body of lore explaining why dragons are so magical.
So, the question comes up with your proposal, “why are all these lightweight, tiny-muscled 1/2ling PC fighters able to bend the same iron bars as the average 1/2 Orc PC fighters two times taller, 8 times more massive, whose biceps are bigger than the 1/2 king’s heads?” You can say it is magic, but then you have to explain why the 1/2lings have this magic.
”Because a bunch of woke kids thought it was discriminatory not to” breaks the suspension of disbelief.
I keep hearing this argument that I’m complaining about questionable science in a fantasy world.
Actually, you're just wantonly (or ignorantly) misusing the word "science."
What you are talking about, at best, is "common sense." Except in the case of all these fantastical things (like halflings and orcs and dragons and whatnot), you, like everyone else, have no direct experience, so you're actually talking about your personal take on fantasy tropes.
I keep hearing this argument that I’m complaining about questionable science in a fantasy world.
Actually, you're just wantonly (or ignorantly) misusing the word "science."
What you are talking about, at best, is "common sense." Except in the case of all these fantastical things (like halflings and orcs and dragons and whatnot), you, like everyone else, have no direct experience, so you're actually talking about your personal take on fantasy tropes.
No. I am referring to the scientific fact that larger animals are stronger than smaller creatures since they have more muscle mass and stronger bones.
I keep hearing this argument that I’m complaining about questionable science in a fantasy world.
Actually, you're just wantonly (or ignorantly) misusing the word "science."
What you are talking about, at best, is "common sense." Except in the case of all these fantastical things (like halflings and orcs and dragons and whatnot), you, like everyone else, have no direct experience, so you're actually talking about your personal take on fantasy tropes.
No. I am referring to the scientific fact that larger animals are stronger than smaller creatures since they have more muscle mass and stronger bones.
Yet there is zero scientific evidence (or even theory) that halflings work that way.
I keep hearing this argument that I’m complaining about questionable science in a fantasy world.
Actually, you're just wantonly (or ignorantly) misusing the word "science."
What you are talking about, at best, is "common sense." Except in the case of all these fantastical things (like halflings and orcs and dragons and whatnot), you, like everyone else, have no direct experience, so you're actually talking about your personal take on fantasy tropes.
No. I am referring to the scientific fact that larger animals are stronger than smaller creatures since they have more muscle mass and stronger bones.
Yet there is zero scientific evidence (or even theory) that halflings work that way.
I keep hearing this argument that I’m complaining about questionable science in a fantasy world.
Actually, you're just wantonly (or ignorantly) misusing the word "science."
What you are talking about, at best, is "common sense." Except in the case of all these fantastical things (like halflings and orcs and dragons and whatnot), you, like everyone else, have no direct experience, so you're actually talking about your personal take on fantasy tropes.
No. I am referring to the scientific fact that larger animals are stronger than smaller creatures since they have more muscle mass and stronger bones.
Yet there is zero scientific evidence (or even theory) that halflings work that way.
I keep hearing this argument that I’m complaining about questionable science in a fantasy world.
Actually, you're just wantonly (or ignorantly) misusing the word "science."
What you are talking about, at best, is "common sense." Except in the case of all these fantastical things (like halflings and orcs and dragons and whatnot), you, like everyone else, have no direct experience, so you're actually talking about your personal take on fantasy tropes.
No. I am referring to the scientific fact that larger animals are stronger than smaller creatures since they have more muscle mass and stronger bones.
Yet there is zero scientific evidence (or even theory) that halflings work that way.
Occam’s razor is a central part of science and the concept of Occam’s razor is discussed in my post above.
Because it's the obvious example, and because 5E did away with negative racial ability modifiers. Halflings, gnomes, kobolds and goblins being equally strong as dwarves on average already stretches belief. What would a suggested tweak to being Small entail?
Hm. So, a modification to Small could potentially be anything, from restricting Strength cap from 20 to 18, or a starting penalty, whatever. What I personally would do? Disadvantage on Strength rolls that rely on relative size. Its kind of a mirror to Sunlight Sensitivity, but instead of light causing disadvantage on attacks and perception checks, its checks where leverage and ability to apply muscles.
Based on what you're saying here, can I presume that you only have trouble with the Small beings matching Medium sized ones?
That aside, again, nobody's stopping elves from being strong, dwarves from being dexterous or gnomes from being charismatic. Rolling stats in order is not a thing, and we don't get told what to do or not to do with our class-based ASIs. Thanks to bounded accuracy everybody has the same potential anyway - the difference is one of cost.
That's kind of part of the issue. The arguments used for halfling v. half-orc also are applying to all the races. Halflings aren't really big on strength because of the cost associated as well as the direction their innate traits push them (slipping through bigger creatures, etc push them towards skirmisher builds, for instance).
So, why should there be a cost for an elf on becoming strong as, say, a dwarf? Its just as thematic for a wood elf to be a totem barbarian as a dwarf to be a zealot or battlerager barbarian. So, why should you have to pay a cost? What does that really add? Is it a problem?
Halfling v. half-orc has become emblematic of the entire question, but I want to really want about others, especially since Halflings do have a quality that makes them weaker than half-orcs; Small beings can't carry as much as Medium beings, and can't use Heavy weapons. This might not be far enough, but if tweaked, it solves the problem. Which them moves us from the Small v. Medium creature question to Medium v. Medium.
So. Why should wood elves be penalized for being a barbarian?
I keep hearing this argument that I’m complaining about questionable science in a fantasy world.
Actually, you're just wantonly (or ignorantly) misusing the word "science."
What you are talking about, at best, is "common sense." Except in the case of all these fantastical things (like halflings and orcs and dragons and whatnot), you, like everyone else, have no direct experience, so you're actually talking about your personal take on fantasy tropes.
No. I am referring to the scientific fact that larger animals are stronger than smaller creatures since they have more muscle mass and stronger bones.
A chimpanzee is extremely strong, despite being smaller than a human.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
Occam’s razor is a central part of science and the concept of Occam’s razor is discussed in my post above.
Halfings are make-believe. You can believe whatever you want about them, but you can't "do science" to them.
You can make up whatever prospective, in-world science you want for them. It can even totally conflict with their game mechanics. You are not making, can not make, an actual scientific argument about them.
Occam’s razor is a central part of science and the concept of Occam’s razor is discussed in my post above.
Halfings are make-believe. You can believe whatever you want about them, but you can't "do science" to them.
You can make up whatever prospective, in-world science you want for them. It can even totally conflict with their game mechanics. You are not making, can not make, an actual scientific argument about them.
I keep hearing this argument that I’m complaining about questionable science in a fantasy world.
Of course, people are not going to read back to see that I’ve already addressed this. I anticipate that I’m going to have to keep repeating myself on this point ad nauseum.
First off, the claim that it is a fantasy world and that makes anything permissible is obviously flawed. I need not say anything more.
It is a shared world. Could you make wagons fly? Sure. Could you make all wagons soft, spongey, the size of your fist, and taste good? It is a fantasy world, so okay. Could you keep making these kinds of changes? Maybe rocks have PTSD and taste like harp music? Maybe harp music has wheels and carries elephants down lemon sounding butterscotch?
Clearly, just because it is fantasy doesn’t mean everything is possible.
People come to the game expecting things to work according to science. When those things don’t, then they need to be explained. An explanation can be as simple as “it’s magic.” Why can dragons fly? “It’s magic.” That’s okay. But, that might require other explanations. “Why are dragons so magical?” Well, in DND, there’s a huge body of lore explaining why dragons are so magical.
So, the question comes up with your proposal, “why are all these lightweight, tiny-muscled 1/2ling PC fighters able to bend the same iron bars as the average 1/2 Orc PC fighters two times taller, 8 times more massive, whose biceps are bigger than the 1/2 king’s heads?” You can say it is magic, but then you have to explain why the 1/2lings have this magic.
”Because a bunch of woke kids thought it was discriminatory not to” breaks the suspension of disbelief.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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You don't get to pick and choose the science. Biology and bi-mechanics are as immutable as physics. You can state the opposite as much as you like. You will be wrong every time.
"You don't get to pick and choose the science"
So I presume in your world, magic isn't real?
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Have any peer-reviewed papers on the statistical distribution of strength (measured by bench press?) of orcs and gnomes?
LOL I have Vince on mute so I didn't see this gem.
D&D blatantly ignores biology and physics in numerous ways. A person that falls into lava will not fully recover after 8 hours of sleep. Giants should die as they are crushed by the weight of their own bodies. Dragons are some how capable of flight. Centaurs are ridiculous in the extreme. Fireballs create the exact same amount of heat in a 20 radius but doesn't affect anything at all that is immediately outside that range.
If you and D&D can pick and choose the science, so can I and anyone else. It is a magical fantasy game written by people that have chosen to ignore science for the sake of fantastical fun.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
What is magic? Oh oh, I've made the game literally unplayable.
For some reason the science papers I read haven't covered that topic, seems like a real oversight to me.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Worst D&D game ever:
Wizard: I cast Feather Fall and float down safely.
DM: Gravity is immutable. You plunge to your death.
Fighter: With the mighty strength granted to me by this Belt of Giant Strength, I pick up that boulder.
DM: Your spine snaps under the weight.
Druid: I Wild Shape into a bear.
DM: As if.
Player: This isn't much fun.
DM: It is for me.
I hear the gnomes all use steroids.
But feathers drop like a stone (1d6 damage per 10ft) unless someone casts Feather Fall...
Listen, gnomes dont exist so we know nothing about their biological composition or anatomy. They are also in a fantasy world where the whole point is for it to be UNLIKE real life. Also, dwarves exist, why cant my gnome be similar to a dwarf? Humans are born in all shapes and sizes so it makes sense that gnomes can as well. This entire thread is silly.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Since you believe this entire thread is silly, why are you participating in it?
I keep hearing this argument that I’m complaining about questionable science in a fantasy world.
Of course, people are not going to read back to see that I’ve already addressed this. I anticipate that I’m going to have to keep repeating myself on this point ad nauseum.
First off, the claim that it is a fantasy world and that makes anything permissible is obviously flawed. I need not say anything more.
It is a shared world. Could you make wagons fly? Sure. Could you make all wagons soft, spongey, the size of your fist, and taste good? It is a fantasy world, so okay. Could you keep making these kinds of changes? Maybe rocks have PTSD and taste like harp music? Maybe harp music has wheels and carries elephants down lemon sounding butterscotch?
Clearly, just because it is fantasy doesn’t mean everything is possible.
People come to the game expecting things to work according to science. When those things don’t, then they need to be explained. An explanation can be as simple as “it’s magic.” Why can dragons fly? “It’s magic.” That’s okay. But, that might require other explanations. “Why are dragons so magical?” Well, in DND, there’s a huge body of lore explaining why dragons are so magical.
So, the question comes up with your proposal, “why are all these lightweight, tiny-muscled 1/2ling PC fighters able to bend the same iron bars as the average 1/2 Orc PC fighters two times taller, 8 times more massive, whose biceps are bigger than the 1/2 king’s heads?” You can say it is magic, but then you have to explain why the 1/2lings have this magic.
”Because a bunch of woke kids thought it was discriminatory not to” breaks the suspension of disbelief.
Actually, you're just wantonly (or ignorantly) misusing the word "science."
What you are talking about, at best, is "common sense." Except in the case of all these fantastical things (like halflings and orcs and dragons and whatnot), you, like everyone else, have no direct experience, so you're actually talking about your personal take on fantasy tropes.
No. I am referring to the scientific fact that larger animals are stronger than smaller creatures since they have more muscle mass and stronger bones.
Yet there is zero scientific evidence (or even theory) that halflings work that way.
Occam’s razor is a central part of science and the concept of Occam’s razor is discussed in my post above.
Hm. So, a modification to Small could potentially be anything, from restricting Strength cap from 20 to 18, or a starting penalty, whatever. What I personally would do? Disadvantage on Strength rolls that rely on relative size. Its kind of a mirror to Sunlight Sensitivity, but instead of light causing disadvantage on attacks and perception checks, its checks where leverage and ability to apply muscles.
Based on what you're saying here, can I presume that you only have trouble with the Small beings matching Medium sized ones?
That's kind of part of the issue. The arguments used for halfling v. half-orc also are applying to all the races. Halflings aren't really big on strength because of the cost associated as well as the direction their innate traits push them (slipping through bigger creatures, etc push them towards skirmisher builds, for instance).
So, why should there be a cost for an elf on becoming strong as, say, a dwarf? Its just as thematic for a wood elf to be a totem barbarian as a dwarf to be a zealot or battlerager barbarian. So, why should you have to pay a cost? What does that really add? Is it a problem?
Halfling v. half-orc has become emblematic of the entire question, but I want to really want about others, especially since Halflings do have a quality that makes them weaker than half-orcs; Small beings can't carry as much as Medium beings, and can't use Heavy weapons. This might not be far enough, but if tweaked, it solves the problem. Which them moves us from the Small v. Medium creature question to Medium v. Medium.
So. Why should wood elves be penalized for being a barbarian?
A chimpanzee is extremely strong, despite being smaller than a human.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Halfings are make-believe. You can believe whatever you want about them, but you can't "do science" to them.
You can make up whatever prospective, in-world science you want for them. It can even totally conflict with their game mechanics. You are not making, can not make, an actual scientific argument about them.
I keep hearing this argument that I’m complaining about questionable science in a fantasy world.
Of course, people are not going to read back to see that I’ve already addressed this. I anticipate that I’m going to have to keep repeating myself on this point ad nauseum.
First off, the claim that it is a fantasy world and that makes anything permissible is obviously flawed. I need not say anything more.
It is a shared world. Could you make wagons fly? Sure. Could you make all wagons soft, spongey, the size of your fist, and taste good? It is a fantasy world, so okay. Could you keep making these kinds of changes? Maybe rocks have PTSD and taste like harp music? Maybe harp music has wheels and carries elephants down lemon sounding butterscotch?
Clearly, just because it is fantasy doesn’t mean everything is possible.
People come to the game expecting things to work according to science. When those things don’t, then they need to be explained. An explanation can be as simple as “it’s magic.” Why can dragons fly? “It’s magic.” That’s okay. But, that might require other explanations. “Why are dragons so magical?” Well, in DND, there’s a huge body of lore explaining why dragons are so magical.
So, the question comes up with your proposal, “why are all these lightweight, tiny-muscled 1/2ling PC fighters able to bend the same iron bars as the average 1/2 Orc PC fighters two times taller, 8 times more massive, whose biceps are bigger than the 1/2 king’s heads?” You can say it is magic, but then you have to explain why the 1/2lings have this magic.
”Because a bunch of woke kids thought it was discriminatory not to” breaks the suspension of disbelief.