So I am 3 sessions into a new campaign with new players. So far all going really well, they are getting used to the way I like to run a campaign and my house rules, one of which is that anything to do with a player the player rolls, I never roll secretly on their behalf, I just roll anything for NPC's. However one of them has asked if I can roll the death saving throws in secret.
Now I understand the logic behind this, at no point will the players know if they are alive or dead, adding a sense of urgency to reviving other players but it isn't something I have ever done, either as a dm or a player. I am open to the idea, however I worry it will actually influence my behaviour as a DM and, make me consider breaking my golden rule which is that I never fudge a physical dice roll directly. Yes I might tweak hit points, or AC, usually to speed up ending an encounter the party are clearly winning. But when it comes to actually rolling the dice I never change a result. I also (something the party have not been able to work out yet) will have enemies in an encounter be ruthless, so if a player is down and unconscious then an enemy will stab at them to finish them off if given the opportunity. To my mind, while being a little meta, if 3 players are down and the cleric knows 1 has failed 2 saving throws and the other 2 have made them then it gives the players a chance to recover the situation. If they don't know that then as DM I have advanced knowledge they dont and can be perceived as using it to my advantage.
So to players and DM's is this a mechanic you have tried, did you like it hate it, feel indifferent. Did it add something to your game that was worth the additional stress of actually having another players characters survival in your own hands? Players, do you like not knowing how close to death your unconscious allies are, do you feel it makes encounters harder to manage?
Any other comments appreciated, my guess is that I will suggest to the party that for the first few levels we let them roll, more because life can be more deadly at lower levels, then give it a go from level 3 with me rolling and see how it feels and if we want to stick with it or switch back.
Hm... I will need to discuss this with my players. But I think they will probably want to both roll and see the result.
We use Foundry and with Foundry there is a log, so after the situation is resolved (by death or recovery), I could always screen-share the log so they can see what the actual rolls were if they are curious (e.g., about how close they came).
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
That is an interesting situation. Actually, that is a terrifying perspective... from either side of the table. As the DM knowing whether someone is succeeding or failing Death Saves... as the Player not knowing whether this is the last roll or not. Whisper logging is definitely a good way to do this. If we were still at a table, I would build out a special black tower and have it face me, but have the player choose which of the "Death Dice" to pick up and drop into the tower. That way they still rolled, but didn't get to see the result. It certainly heightens the tension around the table. When I am running the game, I would need to make more notes on which monsters were going to behave in what ways when a player falls to the ground so that I'm not thinking about it at the time... it is just what that monster would do.
Initially my thought was, "Oh... oh hell no!" But after chewing on it for a bit, I kind of like the drama this could add. Kind of a semi-hardcore mode... But I still want their hands on the dice... that way it is still their fault... LMAO
I think that if I did it "behind the screen," I would probably use descriptive cues to help the players have some sense of what is going on. For example, I might say to the player, after a failed save, "In the distance, you see a light, flickering, like the light of a candle. The light seems welcoming and warm. You feel yourself drifting toward it." Then maybe after a 2nd death save, the light would grow larger, bathing them in it. They feel that they are almost there, and that something wonderful will happen when they get there... etc.
To the other players I might say (depending on what has happened to cause it), they see the body convulsing, hear the breathing become shallow, can't tell if the PC is breathing at all, maybe see blood trickling down the mouth, maybe the blood flow which was heavy is now starting to slow, as if there isn't much blood left, or that kind of thing.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I agree with the sentiment expressed, just consider that there is another alternative, which is for the player to roll but for no one but the DM to see the result. This is what we do and we either achieve it face-to-face by rolling in an opaque goblet that the DM holds, and online by using facilities of the VTT (Foundry does it out of the box although there is a great add-on called Let me roll that for you which does it better / I actually wrote a script for Roll20 that does it as well).
This is the best of both worlds for us and of course we also use such hidden rolls for skills like stealth / perception / investigation / insight etc.
I think for me this is the fun of the game, because I narrate the rolls to the players and because some of the funniest moments have come from players rolling really bad and then proceeding to do the thing anyway. For instance
I roll investigation to see if I find anything in the room (rolls a 1) "You glance around the room and notice, how square it is, then you eyes are drawn to a strange mechanical device on the desk, 8 metal balls hanging in a cradle, you lift one and it bangs down sending the ball at the other end swinging while the others stay perfectly still. You spend 20 mins gaving in delight and awe playing with this strange device."
Or a recent favourite "the large green gem sits in the hand of the statue" Rogue "I check for traps (rolled 16)" You can see that there is some sort of a cantilever device here you can't tell what it is linked to as it is deep in the statue.
"I roll to disarm" rolled a 19 against DC 20 "You figure out the mechanism and that it is weight dependant, the gem holds the arm down, but your not able to find a way to stop the trap triggering if the gem is lifted.
Another player, I want to find a stone or something to swap out, rolled a 5 to gauge the size and shape of the gem, then a 17 to find a rock that matched, I then allowed a second player to double check they where a match side by side, rolled a 1. The laughter round the table as they all knew what was coming.
"You look at your colleague, he has chosen well in fact, so well if this was painted green you believe it would be an exact match"
The players then, despite knowing the trap was about to be triggered, stood around it letting the player make the swap. It was only a nat 20 on the dex check to swap gem for stone that prevented a potential TPK as the statue exploded (still knocked half the party unconscious).
That is an interesting situation. Actually, that is a terrifying perspective... from either side of the table. As the DM knowing whether someone is succeeding or failing Death Saves... as the Player not knowing whether this is the last roll or not. Whisper logging is definitely a good way to do this. If we were still at a table, I would build out a special black tower and have it face me, but have the player choose which of the "Death Dice" to pick up and drop into the tower. That way they still rolled, but didn't get to see the result. It certainly heightens the tension around the table. When I am running the game, I would need to make more notes on which monsters were going to behave in what ways when a player falls to the ground so that I'm not thinking about it at the time... it is just what that monster would do.
Initially my thought was, "Oh... oh hell no!" But after chewing on it for a bit, I kind of like the drama this could add. Kind of a semi-hardcore mode... But I still want their hands on the dice... that way it is still their fault... LMAO
I like this idea, a dice tower of death only used for death saving throws, the player puts his dice in the top, maybe cut a section out of the DM screen so it tucks in under it sending the dice into a black oblivion, not knowing the result lol. I would feel the need to photo every roll though just to confirm I am not fudging things.
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So I am 3 sessions into a new campaign with new players. So far all going really well, they are getting used to the way I like to run a campaign and my house rules, one of which is that anything to do with a player the player rolls, I never roll secretly on their behalf, I just roll anything for NPC's. However one of them has asked if I can roll the death saving throws in secret.
Now I understand the logic behind this, at no point will the players know if they are alive or dead, adding a sense of urgency to reviving other players but it isn't something I have ever done, either as a dm or a player. I am open to the idea, however I worry it will actually influence my behaviour as a DM and, make me consider breaking my golden rule which is that I never fudge a physical dice roll directly. Yes I might tweak hit points, or AC, usually to speed up ending an encounter the party are clearly winning. But when it comes to actually rolling the dice I never change a result. I also (something the party have not been able to work out yet) will have enemies in an encounter be ruthless, so if a player is down and unconscious then an enemy will stab at them to finish them off if given the opportunity. To my mind, while being a little meta, if 3 players are down and the cleric knows 1 has failed 2 saving throws and the other 2 have made them then it gives the players a chance to recover the situation. If they don't know that then as DM I have advanced knowledge they dont and can be perceived as using it to my advantage.
So to players and DM's is this a mechanic you have tried, did you like it hate it, feel indifferent. Did it add something to your game that was worth the additional stress of actually having another players characters survival in your own hands? Players, do you like not knowing how close to death your unconscious allies are, do you feel it makes encounters harder to manage?
Any other comments appreciated, my guess is that I will suggest to the party that for the first few levels we let them roll, more because life can be more deadly at lower levels, then give it a go from level 3 with me rolling and see how it feels and if we want to stick with it or switch back.
Hm... I will need to discuss this with my players. But I think they will probably want to both roll and see the result.
We use Foundry and with Foundry there is a log, so after the situation is resolved (by death or recovery), I could always screen-share the log so they can see what the actual rolls were if they are curious (e.g., about how close they came).
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
That is an interesting situation. Actually, that is a terrifying perspective... from either side of the table. As the DM knowing whether someone is succeeding or failing Death Saves... as the Player not knowing whether this is the last roll or not. Whisper logging is definitely a good way to do this. If we were still at a table, I would build out a special black tower and have it face me, but have the player choose which of the "Death Dice" to pick up and drop into the tower. That way they still rolled, but didn't get to see the result. It certainly heightens the tension around the table. When I am running the game, I would need to make more notes on which monsters were going to behave in what ways when a player falls to the ground so that I'm not thinking about it at the time... it is just what that monster would do.
Initially my thought was, "Oh... oh hell no!" But after chewing on it for a bit, I kind of like the drama this could add. Kind of a semi-hardcore mode... But I still want their hands on the dice... that way it is still their fault... LMAO
I think that if I did it "behind the screen," I would probably use descriptive cues to help the players have some sense of what is going on. For example, I might say to the player, after a failed save, "In the distance, you see a light, flickering, like the light of a candle. The light seems welcoming and warm. You feel yourself drifting toward it." Then maybe after a 2nd death save, the light would grow larger, bathing them in it. They feel that they are almost there, and that something wonderful will happen when they get there... etc.
To the other players I might say (depending on what has happened to cause it), they see the body convulsing, hear the breathing become shallow, can't tell if the PC is breathing at all, maybe see blood trickling down the mouth, maybe the blood flow which was heavy is now starting to slow, as if there isn't much blood left, or that kind of thing.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I think for me this is the fun of the game, because I narrate the rolls to the players and because some of the funniest moments have come from players rolling really bad and then proceeding to do the thing anyway. For instance
I roll investigation to see if I find anything in the room (rolls a 1) "You glance around the room and notice, how square it is, then you eyes are drawn to a strange mechanical device on the desk, 8 metal balls hanging in a cradle, you lift one and it bangs down sending the ball at the other end swinging while the others stay perfectly still. You spend 20 mins gaving in delight and awe playing with this strange device."
Or a recent favourite "the large green gem sits in the hand of the statue" Rogue "I check for traps (rolled 16)" You can see that there is some sort of a cantilever device here you can't tell what it is linked to as it is deep in the statue.
"I roll to disarm" rolled a 19 against DC 20 "You figure out the mechanism and that it is weight dependant, the gem holds the arm down, but your not able to find a way to stop the trap triggering if the gem is lifted.
Another player, I want to find a stone or something to swap out, rolled a 5 to gauge the size and shape of the gem, then a 17 to find a rock that matched, I then allowed a second player to double check they where a match side by side, rolled a 1. The laughter round the table as they all knew what was coming.
"You look at your colleague, he has chosen well in fact, so well if this was painted green you believe it would be an exact match"
The players then, despite knowing the trap was about to be triggered, stood around it letting the player make the swap. It was only a nat 20 on the dex check to swap gem for stone that prevented a potential TPK as the statue exploded (still knocked half the party unconscious).
I like this idea, a dice tower of death only used for death saving throws, the player puts his dice in the top, maybe cut a section out of the DM screen so it tucks in under it sending the dice into a black oblivion, not knowing the result lol. I would feel the need to photo every roll though just to confirm I am not fudging things.