I mean, I guess you’re right, I can’t argue with the numbers. Truth is, though, me and many of my players just value the fun (and risk) of rolling the dice more, and not many of us notice the difference even when our characters are suboptimal. For me anyway, trying too hard to have the ideal experience is just ultimately less important than the messy, idiosyncratic fun we have at the table. Note I’m not saying my way is better, but it works for me, and I’m willing to live with the consequences.
I think this discussion has a lot to do with the difference between the fantasy of what D&D is that many players have and the practical reality of what D&D ends up being at the overwhelming majority of tables.
The fantasy is that its a deep, storytelling game about characters, about the narrative and about the long term story progression and narrative development of their characters.
The reality is that its a game about fighting monster and the narrative is what gets you there.
I know its not what people want to hear about their game and I'm sure most people will very sternly disagree, but there are 23 pages of discussion in this post alone on the topic of how to best to roll ability scores, how one method or the other is more or less balanced. None of this discussion has anything to do with the presumed "deep narrative" that players claim the game is all about.
Its about fighting monsters, that's why having a 7 in all of your stats is not acceptable.. because a character with 7's in all their stats does not stop anyone from role-playing a deep, meaningful character in a heavy narrative game. It does however really screw you when your fighting monsters.
Pretty much this.
I have been in sessions where barely a single die was cast. But eventually, and in the vast majority of sessions, players are going to roll dice for checks, attacks, and saves. There are literally hundreds of pages, maybe thousands, of material devoted to the math of the game. Of course the player stats matter. And in the vast majority of campaigns, they matter more than anything. So those that suggest the 4d6 method is for "the excitement the roll of char creation in the 1st session" (and what happens with that in all the rest of the sessions), or roleplay, or variation, that is all a smokescreen. Good Role Players don't care what their ability scores are. They can work with bad stats or great stats. So no one says "I roll 4d6 to get variable stats in order to enhance my Role Play".
The only reason to use 4d6 is for better stats. That's it.
Who says you're going to get the same numbers? Even with some sort of mitigation rules in place there's a pretty decent chance of two negative modifiers for instance. The negatives can also be much more pronounced than an 8 stat / -1 modifier.
A couple really good ones, a couple roughly comparable to a standard array and a couple a little bit below standard array, with none of them poor enough that I'd feel a need to offer a reroll or some other adjustment. That's a really nice result for illustration purposes.
Rolling a 7 or below is rare though? You did it twice in your first three characters....
Or are you saying all abilities under 7? If so thats just not really going to happen yeah...but your overall total can be significantly lower than others very easily as proven by your own rolls.
Its a bit of a hyperbole sure but being 22 points lower than your party mate is very significant.
My personal best was 16, 17, 16, 14, 15, 14 whilst running a Bulwark of Helm under 2e.
I had a Paladin with a strength of 18 with % though her Con was initially at 15 went down to 10 because the dm decided you lost a Con point if you dropped to 0hp even if someone healed you in time to avoid dying.
My current character a wood elf cleric had rolls of 12, 13, 15, 12, 15 and 11 still think I should have swapped Strength and Dexterity around but it was originally supposed to be a ranger until I was asked to convert into a Cleric.
Please note the above is the rolls not the final character attributes which were 12, 15, 15, 12, 16 and 11.
My point is you have two characters with 15 points different in their ability stats....
Even if you put your best stats in the right order for the barbarian these other characters will be better at hitting things compared to them simply due to the stat differences. And this is across the board they are worse in everything.
For me the worst part about rolling is this...you have a decent chance to have two characters with wildly different statblocks. The way most people "fix" this is to have a way to mitigate low scores. (Reroll if less than 65)
If you are mitigating low scores with rolls you are pretty much ensuring they will have at least the same or better as point buy.....so why not just do point buy and be done with it?
If you want good scores at the start give them more points to buy and allow them to buy up to a 16.
Every single one of these posts merely confirms my original post. A 27 point buy, coupled with the species specific boosts, guarantee a pair of 16's, or an 16 and 17, if the player so desires. That is plenty good enough for any low level character to excel at its job in the game. But for a power-gamer, who wants to triple class and wants to take Feats instead of ability bumps, no, those stats are not nearly good enough.
"My char needs Polearm Mastery, Sentinel, GWM, and 20's in Str AND Con AND Wis in order for me to express my uniqueness as a real world human being, and this 27 point buy or SA is far too restrictive to allow my creativity to soar. I must be able to roll 4d6 and then continue rolling until I get the set that allows me to do all this."
So that's a lie if you go back and check the array that I rolled with 4d6. This was on page 20ish.
I think this discussion has a lot to do with the difference between the fantasy of what D&D is that many players have and the practical reality of what D&D ends up being at the overwhelming majority of tables.
The fantasy is that its a deep, storytelling game about characters, about the narrative and about the long term story progression and narrative development of their characters.
The reality is that its a game about fighting monster and the narrative is what gets you there.
I know its not what people want to hear about their game and I'm sure most people will very sternly disagree, but there are 23 pages of discussion in this post alone on the topic of how to best to roll ability scores, how one method or the other is more or less balanced. None of this discussion has anything to do with the presumed "deep narrative" that players claim the game is all about.
Its about fighting monsters, that's why having a 7 in all of your stats is not acceptable.. because a character with 7's in all their stats does not stop anyone from role-playing a deep, meaningful character in a heavy narrative game. It does however really screw you when your fighting monsters.
Pretty much this.
I have been in sessions where barely a single die was cast. But eventually, and in the vast majority of sessions, players are going to roll dice for checks, attacks, and saves. There are literally hundreds of pages, maybe thousands, of material devoted to the math of the game. Of course the player stats matter. And in the vast majority of campaigns, they matter more than anything. So those that suggest the 4d6 method is for "the excitement the roll of char creation in the 1st session" (and what happens with that in all the rest of the sessions), or roleplay, or variation, that is all a smokescreen. Good Role Players don't care what their ability scores are. They can work with bad stats or great stats. So no one says "I roll 4d6 to get variable stats in order to enhance my Role Play".
The only reason to use 4d6 is for better stats. That's it.
Agreed, but I just want to point that this is perfectly fine, like if you want a high octane power fantasy and you want the characters to be die hard badasses, I wouldn't do it any other way, go nuts. However its quite misleading in particular to new players and new DM's to suggest that 4d6 is some sort of standard level game. Its not, but then again, 5e is pretty much a power fantasy that requires quite a few changes in addition to reduced ability scores to change that about the game. It's a super hero epic level fantasy game out of the box.
Then go with a Heroic array or increased number point buy and avoid the power swing with the rolls.
18, 17, 15, 14, 11, 9 is what I have seen suggested from most for Heroic Array and Chicken Dinner is a good website for alternative point buy.
Who says you're going to get the same numbers? Even with some sort of mitigation rules in place there's a pretty decent chance of two negative modifiers for instance. The negatives can also be much more pronounced than an 8 stat / -1 modifier.
A couple really good ones, a couple roughly comparable to a standard array and a couple a little bit below standard array, with none of them poor enough that I'd feel a need to offer a reroll or some other adjustment. That's a really nice result for illustration purposes.
Rolling a 7 or below is rare though? You did it twice in your first three characters....
Or are you saying all abilities under 7? If so thats just not really going to happen yeah...but your overall total can be significantly lower than others very easily as proven by your own rolls.
Its a bit of a hyperbole sure but being 22 points lower than your party mate is very significant.
First off, just because it's going to keep bugging me, the largest difference between the first 5 was 18 points (62 vs 80), not 22. Across all 10 statlines it's significantly larger, but if we're mentioning numbers it bugs me when they're off. :p
Second, nothing's stopping the DM from giving a reroll or make some adjustments if they think it's problematic for them.
Third, adding everything together and comparing totals is a bit misleading. 15 15 10 10 8 8 adds up to 66, 12 12 12 12 12 12 adds up to 72 - yet most players I know will choose the 66-point array over the 72-point array every time. This is why pointbuy makes higher stats relatively more expensive.
Fourth, yes, I meant rolling 6 abilities of 7 or lower is rare using 4d6 drop lowest. Ridiculously rare. So rare it'd get remembered forever even if the statline wasn't even used.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Who says you're going to get the same numbers? Even with some sort of mitigation rules in place there's a pretty decent chance of two negative modifiers for instance. The negatives can also be much more pronounced than an 8 stat / -1 modifier.
A couple really good ones, a couple roughly comparable to a standard array and a couple a little bit below standard array, with none of them poor enough that I'd feel a need to offer a reroll or some other adjustment. That's a really nice result for illustration purposes.
Rolling a 7 or below is rare though? You did it twice in your first three characters....
Or are you saying all abilities under 7? If so thats just not really going to happen yeah...but your overall total can be significantly lower than others very easily as proven by your own rolls.
Its a bit of a hyperbole sure but being 22 points lower than your party mate is very significant.
First off, just because it's going to keep bugging me, the largest difference between the first 5 was 18 points (62 vs 80), not 22. Across all 10 statlines it's significantly larger, but if we're mentioning numbers it bugs me when they're off. :p
Second, nothing's stopping the DM from giving a reroll or make some adjustments if they think it's problematic for them.
Third, adding everything together and comparing totals is a bit misleading. 15 15 10 10 8 8 adds up to 66, 12 12 12 12 12 12 adds up to 72 - yet most players I know will choose the 66-point array over the 72-point array every time. This is why pointbuy makes higher stats relatively more expensive.
Fourth, yes, I meant rolling 6 abilities of 7 or lower is rare using 4d6 drop lowest. Ridiculously rare. So rare it'd get remembered forever even if the statline wasn't even used.
Fair enough on the 18 point difference....its still 18 points which is significant.
And yeah overall score is a bit misleading but is still pretty fair assessment of the total abilities as it is good enough for us to compare relative scores.
I kind of disagree on the 15/15/10/10/8/8 line....the best case for that stat line is DEX /STR fighter with 15 in DEX/STR and CON but you dump all mental stats....oof.
That is the single best case too as DEX /STR fighter is the most SAD build available. Pretty much any other build will be mostly terrible with this array.
All 12's isnt great but at least you are competent in all things....it at least lets you look at other builds realistically.
Getting all 12's would be very unlikely as well as you have at least a 50% chance to get a 15+ as I alluded to in my other post so you are more likely to get at least one 15 than all 12's.
I think this discussion has a lot to do with the difference between the fantasy of what D&D is that many players have and the practical reality of what D&D ends up being at the overwhelming majority of tables.
The fantasy is that its a deep, storytelling game about characters, about the narrative and about the long term story progression and narrative development of their characters.
The reality is that its a game about fighting monster and the narrative is what gets you there.
I know its not what people want to hear about their game and I'm sure most people will very sternly disagree, but there are 23 pages of discussion in this post alone on the topic of how to best to roll ability scores, how one method or the other is more or less balanced. None of this discussion has anything to do with the presumed "deep narrative" that players claim the game is all about.
Its about fighting monsters, that's why having a 7 in all of your stats is not acceptable.. because a character with 7's in all their stats does not stop anyone from role-playing a deep, meaningful character in a heavy narrative game. It does however really screw you when your fighting monsters.
Pretty much this.
I have been in sessions where barely a single die was cast. But eventually, and in the vast majority of sessions, players are going to roll dice for checks, attacks, and saves. There are literally hundreds of pages, maybe thousands, of material devoted to the math of the game. Of course the player stats matter. And in the vast majority of campaigns, they matter more than anything. So those that suggest the 4d6 method is for "the excitement the roll of char creation in the 1st session" (and what happens with that in all the rest of the sessions), or roleplay, or variation, that is all a smokescreen. Good Role Players don't care what their ability scores are. They can work with bad stats or great stats. So no one says "I roll 4d6 to get variable stats in order to enhance my Role Play".
The only reason to use 4d6 is for better stats. That's it.
Agreed, but I just want to point that this is perfectly fine, like if you want a high octane power fantasy and you want the characters to be die hard badasses, I wouldn't do it any other way, go nuts. However its quite misleading in particular to new players and new DM's to suggest that 4d6 is some sort of standard level game. Its not, but then again, 5e is pretty much a power fantasy that requires quite a few changes in addition to reduced ability scores to change that about the game. It's a super hero epic level fantasy game out of the box.
Then go with a Heroic array or increased number point buy and avoid the power swing with the rolls.
18, 17, 15, 14, 11, 9 is what I have seen suggested from most for Heroic Array and Chicken Dinner is a good website for alternative point buy.
I played in a game where the DM originally allowed 4d6. I went with it. His game, his rules. I rolled obscenely well, in front of everybody. Strangely enough, every single player at the table had ungodly stats from 4d6. I am sure it was all pure luck. Anyway, after multiple sessions and level ups, I showed him the saves on my Oath of the Ancients Paladin, who naturally had a 20 CHA, and Resilience in Con. He choked. He realized my char was unkillable via spells, and the only option was natural damage.
I pleaded with him to scale back the stats of my char, and every other char at the table. He decided to go with a 37 point (no typo) buy using Chicken Dinner. My stats came down slightly. So did everyone's. But the numbers were still ridiculous. He had the equivalent of an Adult Black Dragon attack a party of six 9th level chars, with these stats. We killed it on the 3rd turn as it tried to escape. Oh, should I mention my char as ZERO magic items? Nothing to buff the char.
A caster will do just fine with 15 15 10 10 8 8. Compared to the standard array the difference will be small and in non-essential qualities.
Actually, that only burns 22 of the 27 points in the 27 point buy system. That would be considered a very very poor char, by any rolling system. Now, is it playable...likely. I know I would not enjoy it.
A caster will do just fine with 15 15 10 10 8 8. Compared to the standard array the difference will be small and in non-essential qualities.
I don't know about that ... Using my current Half-Elf Bard, and applying racial modifiers according to the PHB I would get ...
Str 8 - Dex 16 - Con 10 - Wis 11 - Int 8 - Chr 17
I'd be a spell caster that has to hope to dodge every attack. I'd even have difficulty serving as the face of the party because of the unusually low Int and Wis scores. one of my class features, Jack of all Trades, would not be very impressive adding 1/2 proficiency to such low initial modifiers. Fortunately Dex and Chr are phat abilities that apply to allot of skills.
I was once preparing a probability analysis of rolling a set of stats in 4d6 drop 1. I wonder how low the probability of this set of skills would score? For example, only 46% of all characters using these rules will not roll at least one 16 or better in the 6 abilities. The probability of rolling two 8s or lower in the six rolls is 24.7%. You can't simply multiply both of these together to narrow down how tight this set of abilities is, but it does begin to give one an idea of how unlikely this would be.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I actually rolled a 16, a 17, and four 15s once, so 4d6kh does have problems, but almost all Ability Score Generation methods do.
That is patently untrue. The 27 point Buy system does not allow crazy stats. The Standard Array I guess is moot in this case, since stats are not really generated in that case. But that is why the 27 point buy or SA are the only methods that are balanced and ALWAYS fair.
To the premise of the title of this thread, it is totally legit because it is one of the options in the rules.
I know allot of players will opt for 4d6 drop lowest and many will make the case based on the probabilistic analysis of the other options. But I believe in reality it is much better than that, because as alluded to in this thread, most DMs are not going to force a player to stick with a set of crazy low results. They are going to allow players to reroll one number, or just outright switch one number to a ... N, or allow the player to reroll the whole set, or allow a player to just copy the values another player rolled, or ... So when you throw out the low values that will be hand-waved away, the probabilistic outcome goes up a bit more.
Use whatever works for your group.
I find there is a wise admonition that it is more about player to player balance than it is about the scores. Under point buy or standard array, those issues largely go away.
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I mean, I guess you’re right, I can’t argue with the numbers. Truth is, though, me and many of my players just value the fun (and risk) of rolling the dice more, and not many of us notice the difference even when our characters are suboptimal. For me anyway, trying too hard to have the ideal experience is just ultimately less important than the messy, idiosyncratic fun we have at the table. Note I’m not saying my way is better, but it works for me, and I’m willing to live with the consequences.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
It is a big deal. Not going to calculate the odds of this happening, but rolling that unbelievably poorly would get remembered forever at my table.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Pretty much this.
I have been in sessions where barely a single die was cast. But eventually, and in the vast majority of sessions, players are going to roll dice for checks, attacks, and saves. There are literally hundreds of pages, maybe thousands, of material devoted to the math of the game. Of course the player stats matter. And in the vast majority of campaigns, they matter more than anything. So those that suggest the 4d6 method is for "the excitement the roll of char creation in the 1st session" (and what happens with that in all the rest of the sessions), or roleplay, or variation, that is all a smokescreen. Good Role Players don't care what their ability scores are. They can work with bad stats or great stats. So no one says "I roll 4d6 to get variable stats in order to enhance my Role Play".
The only reason to use 4d6 is for better stats. That's it.
Rolling a 7 or below is rare though? You did it twice in your first three characters....
Or are you saying all abilities under 7? If so thats just not really going to happen yeah...but your overall total can be significantly lower than others very easily as proven by your own rolls.
Its a bit of a hyperbole sure but being 22 points lower than your party mate is very significant.
My personal best was 16, 17, 16, 14, 15, 14 whilst running a Bulwark of Helm under 2e.
I had a Paladin with a strength of 18 with % though her Con was initially at 15 went down to 10 because the dm decided you lost a Con point if you dropped to 0hp even if someone healed you in time to avoid dying.
My current character a wood elf cleric had rolls of 12, 13, 15, 12, 15 and 11 still think I should have swapped Strength and Dexterity around but it was originally supposed to be a ranger until I was asked to convert into a Cleric.
Please note the above is the rolls not the final character attributes which were 12, 15, 15, 12, 16 and 11.
This post is a good reference:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/lya2rl/i_generated_some_stats_with_python_4d6_drop/gprkznx
About 50% of the time you end up with at least 1 score above what you can get from point buy.
And 30% of the time you end up with stat that's lower what then point buy.
So it favors higher scores for sure.
So that's a lie if you go back and check the array that I rolled with 4d6. This was on page 20ish.
11
9
15
11
8
10
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
Then go with a Heroic array or increased number point buy and avoid the power swing with the rolls.
18, 17, 15, 14, 11, 9 is what I have seen suggested from most for Heroic Array and Chicken Dinner is a good website for alternative point buy.
First off, just because it's going to keep bugging me, the largest difference between the first 5 was 18 points (62 vs 80), not 22. Across all 10 statlines it's significantly larger, but if we're mentioning numbers it bugs me when they're off. :p
Second, nothing's stopping the DM from giving a reroll or make some adjustments if they think it's problematic for them.
Third, adding everything together and comparing totals is a bit misleading. 15 15 10 10 8 8 adds up to 66, 12 12 12 12 12 12 adds up to 72 - yet most players I know will choose the 66-point array over the 72-point array every time. This is why pointbuy makes higher stats relatively more expensive.
Fourth, yes, I meant rolling 6 abilities of 7 or lower is rare using 4d6 drop lowest. Ridiculously rare. So rare it'd get remembered forever even if the statline wasn't even used.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Fair enough on the 18 point difference....its still 18 points which is significant.
And yeah overall score is a bit misleading but is still pretty fair assessment of the total abilities as it is good enough for us to compare relative scores.
I kind of disagree on the 15/15/10/10/8/8 line....the best case for that stat line is DEX /STR fighter with 15 in DEX/STR and CON but you dump all mental stats....oof.
That is the single best case too as DEX /STR fighter is the most SAD build available. Pretty much any other build will be mostly terrible with this array.
All 12's isnt great but at least you are competent in all things....it at least lets you look at other builds realistically.
Getting all 12's would be very unlikely as well as you have at least a 50% chance to get a 15+ as I alluded to in my other post so you are more likely to get at least one 15 than all 12's.
A caster will do just fine with 15 15 10 10 8 8. Compared to the standard array the difference will be small and in non-essential qualities.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Not really.... They will have to dump CON or DEX and that will be very bad.
I played in a game where the DM originally allowed 4d6. I went with it. His game, his rules. I rolled obscenely well, in front of everybody. Strangely enough, every single player at the table had ungodly stats from 4d6. I am sure it was all pure luck. Anyway, after multiple sessions and level ups, I showed him the saves on my Oath of the Ancients Paladin, who naturally had a 20 CHA, and Resilience in Con. He choked. He realized my char was unkillable via spells, and the only option was natural damage.
I pleaded with him to scale back the stats of my char, and every other char at the table. He decided to go with a 37 point (no typo) buy using Chicken Dinner. My stats came down slightly. So did everyone's. But the numbers were still ridiculous. He had the equivalent of an Adult Black Dragon attack a party of six 9th level chars, with these stats. We killed it on the 3rd turn as it tried to escape. Oh, should I mention my char as ZERO magic items? Nothing to buff the char.
Actually, that only burns 22 of the 27 points in the 27 point buy system. That would be considered a very very poor char, by any rolling system. Now, is it playable...likely. I know I would not enjoy it.
I actually rolled a 16, a 17, and four 15s once, so 4d6kh does have problems, but almost all Ability Score Generation methods do.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
Right. Dex mod will be 1 lower than in the standard array (10 vs 13). Very bad indeed.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I don't know about that ... Using my current Half-Elf Bard, and applying racial modifiers according to the PHB I would get ...
Str 8 - Dex 16 - Con 10 - Wis 11 - Int 8 - Chr 17
I'd be a spell caster that has to hope to dodge every attack. I'd even have difficulty serving as the face of the party because of the unusually low Int and Wis scores. one of my class features, Jack of all Trades, would not be very impressive adding 1/2 proficiency to such low initial modifiers. Fortunately Dex and Chr are phat abilities that apply to allot of skills.
I was once preparing a probability analysis of rolling a set of stats in 4d6 drop 1. I wonder how low the probability of this set of skills would score? For example, only 46% of all characters using these rules will not roll at least one 16 or better in the 6 abilities. The probability of rolling two 8s or lower in the six rolls is 24.7%. You can't simply multiply both of these together to narrow down how tight this set of abilities is, but it does begin to give one an idea of how unlikely this would be.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
That is patently untrue. The 27 point Buy system does not allow crazy stats. The Standard Array I guess is moot in this case, since stats are not really generated in that case. But that is why the 27 point buy or SA are the only methods that are balanced and ALWAYS fair.
yes it is....AC -1 will be an issue.
The fact nobody wants to admit that a +1 is even a big difference in a bound accuracy system is odd to me....
To the premise of the title of this thread, it is totally legit because it is one of the options in the rules.
I know allot of players will opt for 4d6 drop lowest and many will make the case based on the probabilistic analysis of the other options. But I believe in reality it is much better than that, because as alluded to in this thread, most DMs are not going to force a player to stick with a set of crazy low results. They are going to allow players to reroll one number, or just outright switch one number to a ... N, or allow the player to reroll the whole set, or allow a player to just copy the values another player rolled, or ... So when you throw out the low values that will be hand-waved away, the probabilistic outcome goes up a bit more.
Use whatever works for your group.
I find there is a wise admonition that it is more about player to player balance than it is about the scores. Under point buy or standard array, those issues largely go away.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt