... you would never hand a +2 weapon to a level 1 player
I don't think you have any earthly idea what I would or wouldn't do. :p
And you can do that but I would suggest you understand the impact that has on the intended balance around the system. To ignore it completely is a very bad idea.
Let's discuss this. Say I give one of my PCs a +2 longsword at character creation. Or I give every single PC a magical item, some something Uncommon, others something Rare. What's the worst that could happen? How is this going to throw my campaign in disarray? I don't see anything that couldn't be perfectly appropriate with some really simple adjustments to the campaign, or not even that depending on how the characters turned out.
I mean sure if you want to ignore the fact you are basically making a level 1 player as good as level 9 player in terms of what they can hit and damage....
CR and leveling systems make assumptions about what the players at various levels can do and make CR roughly equivalent so that you can reasonable assume a group of 4 level 1 PCs will have a medium challenge with a CR 1 creature.
Now normally PCs generally have the advantage anyway as they have generally have more opportunities to use their full action economy per round (Action, BA, Reaction) vs a creature which do not routinely have as many options. So players will typically have an advantage with action economy.
If you give a +2 you now are moving the parameters and this CR 1 creature is now much less threatening. Now if everyone is on the same power level (i.e. you gave them ALL +2 weapons) then this would not really be an issue because you have a consistent power base throughout the group. Now you just toss CR 2 at them and the world feels fine.
Where this +2 becomes an issue is....if you give it to one player and say "Nah" to the rest.
Now this one player has no struggle with the CR1...but the rest are struggling against it. Now you have to make fights with:
1. Threats more appropriate to the character punching above their level
2. BUT not threatening enough to wipe the rest of the party
Now imagine doing this for every encounter having to also factor in does this monster fit the aesthetic I am going for? Is it relevant to the story? Should I add HP or subtract?
You just add a needless variable to the pile of things you think of when making encounters.
OR you just do a point buy and let them pick but they are all on the realitively same power curve and you do not have to worry about it.
Suppose I give this +2 longsword to the one player who rolled a poor statline while everyone else rolled good to great stats, and now that one player's character is in line with the other, "regular" characters.
....I guess? Why even have them roll then if you are just going to re-align the characters anyway with items? Just do point buy and avoid it in the first place.
If the solution involves "I need to give them a Rare weapon to make this work at level 1" you should probably reassess.
Because we like rolling? Because oddities make for easy character hooks? Because it might take players out of their comfort zone a bit? Why not?
I mean why have the headache? We could go back and forth on that forever TBH and make much process either way.
Like I mentioned before I don't begrudge you if its fun for your table and everyone has gotten clear information on the pros/cons of each approach. Where I draw the line is not giving that information to players or just disregarding them as "not mattering".
Tables have different approaches but respect and honesty is one that all should have.
I don't begrudge anyone doing what is fun for their table and I support it if all parties involved are well informed about the different methods and what the pros/cons of each are.
What I don't like is being disingenuous about the CONs of the 4d6 method and how it can affect game balance. Its fine to do anything you want but having at least a healthy respect for the math behind the balance gives you an idea of the caveats of each system.
To say a +1 or +2 is not a big deal is just not understanding how it applies to the system. The weapon example is actually not the greatest as that only affects damage and attack rolls....vs an ability score is much more generally applicable to a wider array of skills and features.
But Pangurjan, this game is not about your enjoyment, it is about the enjoyment of people not even playing at the same table as you. That is why they are so hard pressed to make sure the way you play is the way they like it.
I mean I actually say the exact opposite here....I am not intending to say that its not a method at all....simply that you should be aware of the imbalance it can cause and not play it off as nothing.
Its disingenuous and does not serve to enjoyment of the game. Its better to be honest about the drawbacks and let people make up their minds with good information.
If they truly cared about experience in the books they would outline the different methods and give you a "You should use this method if" pep talk of sorts to help everyone understand what is best for their individual table.
What headache? There is no headache for me. 4d6 drop lowest doesn't make me do anything I might not do anyway.
To have an 18 point swing in ASI between characters can be a headache for quite a few people and to not even see that as a potential problem is incredibly disingenuous.
What headache? There is no headache for me. 4d6 drop lowest doesn't make me do anything I might not do anyway.
To have an 18 point swing in ASI between characters can be a headache for quite a few people and to not even see that as a potential problem is incredibly disingenuous.
To further put that into perspective, 18 points is effectively 9 ASIs (giving +2 to some score). Thats more than all of the classes get in the entirety of the leveling system. In other words, its impossible for a character on the low end to by level 20 have the same scores that one of their teammates started the game with. The character that rolled poorly will forever be in the shadow of the other players at the table and it can very easily take away from the enjoyment of playing a character if you feel they are not contributing.
I don't begrudge anyone doing what is fun for their table and I support it if all parties involved are well informed about the different methods and what the pros/cons of each are.
What I don't like is being disingenuous about the CONs of the 4d6 method and how it can affect game balance. Its fine to do anything you want but having at least a healthy respect for the math behind the balance gives you an idea of the caveats of each system.
To say a +1 or +2 is not a big deal is just not understanding how it applies to the system. The weapon example is actually not the greatest as that only affects damage and attack rolls....vs an ability score is much more generally applicable to a wider array of skills and features.
But Pangurjan, this game is not about your enjoyment, it is about the enjoyment of people not even playing at the same table as you. That is why they are so hard pressed to make sure the way you play is the way they like it.
I mean I actually say the exact opposite here....I am not intending to say that its not a method at all....simply that you should be aware of the imbalance it can cause and not play it off as nothing.
Its disingenuous and does not serve to enjoyment of the game. Its better to be honest about the drawbacks and let people make up their minds with good information.
If they truly cared about experience in the books they would outline the different methods and give you a "You should use this method if" pep talk of sorts to help everyone understand what is best for their individual table.
This is wrong. It does not server YOUR enjoyment of the game. Stop acting like what you find fun is the only true fun and pretending like you are defending the poor helpless ill informed players at other people's gaming tables.
This whole thread has been about nothing other than people telling other people that what they enjoy is wrong and that they should stop doing it that way.
I don't begrudge anyone doing what is fun for their table and I support it if all parties involved are well informed about the different methods and what the pros/cons of each are.
What I don't like is being disingenuous about the CONs of the 4d6 method and how it can affect game balance. Its fine to do anything you want but having at least a healthy respect for the math behind the balance gives you an idea of the caveats of each system.
To say a +1 or +2 is not a big deal is just not understanding how it applies to the system. The weapon example is actually not the greatest as that only affects damage and attack rolls....vs an ability score is much more generally applicable to a wider array of skills and features.
But Pangurjan, this game is not about your enjoyment, it is about the enjoyment of people not even playing at the same table as you. That is why they are so hard pressed to make sure the way you play is the way they like it.
I mean I actually say the exact opposite here....I am not intending to say that its not a method at all....simply that you should be aware of the imbalance it can cause and not play it off as nothing.
Its disingenuous and does not serve to enjoyment of the game. Its better to be honest about the drawbacks and let people make up their minds with good information.
If they truly cared about experience in the books they would outline the different methods and give you a "You should use this method if" pep talk of sorts to help everyone understand what is best for their individual table.
This is wrong. It does not server YOUR enjoyment of the game. Stop acting like what you find fun is the only true fun and pretending like you are defending the poor helpless ill informed players at other people's gaming tables.
This whole thread has been about nothing other than people telling other people that what they enjoy is wrong and that they should stop doing it that way.
The original purpose of the thread (as divisive as the language used was) was to discuss the merits (or lack thereof) of the 4d6 rolling system. OptimusGrimus is trying to highlight what he/she believes is the drawbacks to the system, not be dismissive of how you choose to play it at your table. He/She has explicitly said several times, including in the areas you are quoting him/her
What headache? There is no headache for me. 4d6 drop lowest doesn't make me do anything I might not do anyway.
To have an 18 point swing in ASI between characters can be a headache for quite a few people and to not even see that as a potential problem is incredibly disingenuous.
To further put that into perspective, 18 points is effectively 9 ASIs (giving +2 to some score). Thats more than all of the classes get in the entirety of the leveling system. In other words, its impossible for a character on the low end to by level 20 have the same scores that one of their teammates started the game with. The character that rolled poorly will forever be in the shadow of the other players at the table and it can very easily take away from the enjoyment of playing a character if you feel they are not contributing.
This is a problem for you. Not everyone feels this way and that is ok. People find different things enjoyable and that is ok.
What headache? There is no headache for me. 4d6 drop lowest doesn't make me do anything I might not do anyway.
To have an 18 point swing in ASI between characters can be a headache for quite a few people and to not even see that as a potential problem is incredibly disingenuous.
So many other things can be problems, and are actually hard to deal with.Using the standard array guarantees practically nothing other han everyone having the same potential - certainly not comparable outcomes. A group with a couple of players who really optimize their characters and a couple of others who make choices on a whim can result in similar discrepancies as random statlines, but with a much bigger impact and no easy solutions. Taking uneven statlines into account on the other hand is just part of evaluating complete character builds and party compositions to see who excells at what and who has trouble with what.
Different statlines are not the problem, differences in character effectiveness are. Different statlines can lead to differences in character effectiveness, but if they do there are several easy as pie solutions for that and other character aspects have an impact that's much harder to mitigate. Pointing at stat generation as the big bad is what's disingenuous.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
What headache? There is no headache for me. 4d6 drop lowest doesn't make me do anything I might not do anyway.
To have an 18 point swing in ASI between characters can be a headache for quite a few people and to not even see that as a potential problem is incredibly disingenuous.
So many other things can be problems, and are actually hard to deal with.Using the standard array guarantees practically nothing other han everyone having the same potential - certainly not comparable outcomes. A group with a couple of players who really optimize their characters and a couple of others who make choices on a whim can result in similar discrepancies as random statlines, but with a much bigger impact and no easy solutions. Taking uneven statlines into account on the other hand is just part of evaluating complete character builds and party compositions to see who excells at what and who has trouble with what.
Different statlines are not the problem, differences in character effectiveness are. Different statlines can lead to differences in character effectiveness, but if they do there are several easy as pie solutions for that and other character aspects have an impact that's much harder to mitigate. Pointing at stat generation as the big bad is what's disingenuous.
All those things are compounded by a large stat difference though.... So yes those still exist but they can just be amplified.
I don't begrudge anyone doing what is fun for their table and I support it if all parties involved are well informed about the different methods and what the pros/cons of each are.
What I don't like is being disingenuous about the CONs of the 4d6 method and how it can affect game balance. Its fine to do anything you want but having at least a healthy respect for the math behind the balance gives you an idea of the caveats of each system.
To say a +1 or +2 is not a big deal is just not understanding how it applies to the system. The weapon example is actually not the greatest as that only affects damage and attack rolls....vs an ability score is much more generally applicable to a wider array of skills and features.
But Pangurjan, this game is not about your enjoyment, it is about the enjoyment of people not even playing at the same table as you. That is why they are so hard pressed to make sure the way you play is the way they like it.
I mean I actually say the exact opposite here....I am not intending to say that its not a method at all....simply that you should be aware of the imbalance it can cause and not play it off as nothing.
Its better to be honest about the drawbacks and let people make up their minds with good information.
If they truly cared about experience in the books they would outline the different methods and give you a "You should use this method if" pep talk of sorts to help everyone understand what is best for their individual table.
This is wrong. It does not server YOUR enjoyment of the game. Stop acting like what you find fun is the only true fun and pretending like you are defending the poor helpless ill informed players at other people's gaming tables.
This whole thread has been about nothing other than people telling other people that what they enjoy is wrong and that they should stop doing it that way.
The original purpose of the thread (as divisive as the language used was) was to discuss the merits (or lack thereof) of the 4d6 rolling system. OptimusGrimus is trying to highlight what he/she believes is the drawbacks to the system, not be dismissive of how you choose to play it at your table. He/She has explicitly said several times, including in the areas you are quoting him/her
They do say that it is ok, then follow that up with statements like "Its disingenuous and does not serve to enjoyment of the game." which completely nullifies their statement that it is ok.
You can't say that it is ok for a person to enjoy what they like then follow that up by saying how wrong they are in the same breath.
What headache? There is no headache for me. 4d6 drop lowest doesn't make me do anything I might not do anyway.
To have an 18 point swing in ASI between characters can be a headache for quite a few people and to not even see that as a potential problem is incredibly disingenuous.
So many other things can be problems, and are actually hard to deal with.Using the standard array guarantees practically nothing other han everyone having the same potential - certainly not comparable outcomes. A group with a couple of players who really optimize their characters and a couple of others who make choices on a whim can result in similar discrepancies as random statlines, but with a much bigger impact and no easy solutions. Taking uneven statlines into account on the other hand is just part of evaluating complete character builds and party compositions to see who excells at what and who has trouble with what.
Different statlines are not the problem, differences in character effectiveness are. Different statlines can lead to differences in character effectiveness, but if they do there are several easy as pie solutions for that and other character aspects have an impact that's much harder to mitigate. Pointing at stat generation as the big bad is what's disingenuous.
All those things are compounded by a large stat difference though.... So yes those still exist but they can just be amplified.
In which case the stat difference is still the easy part to address, and the effort of checking the character is the same either way. That's my point. Using random stat generation doesn't significantly increase my workload as a DM, or make it meaningfully harder.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I actually rolled a 16, a 17, and four 15s once, so 4d6kh does have problems, but almost all Ability Score Generation methods do.
That is patently untrue. The 27 point Buy system does not allow crazy stats. The Standard Array I guess is moot in this case, since stats are not really generated in that case. But that is why the 27 point buy or SA are the only methods that are balanced and ALWAYS fair.
I'm not saying that the problem is always the stat difference. I'm saying that there is no Perfect System of stat generation.
I don't begrudge anyone doing what is fun for their table and I support it if all parties involved are well informed about the different methods and what the pros/cons of each are.
What I don't like is being disingenuous about the CONs of the 4d6 method and how it can affect game balance. Its fine to do anything you want but having at least a healthy respect for the math behind the balance gives you an idea of the caveats of each system.
To say a +1 or +2 is not a big deal is just not understanding how it applies to the system. The weapon example is actually not the greatest as that only affects damage and attack rolls....vs an ability score is much more generally applicable to a wider array of skills and features.
But Pangurjan, this game is not about your enjoyment, it is about the enjoyment of people not even playing at the same table as you. That is why they are so hard pressed to make sure the way you play is the way they like it.
I mean I actually say the exact opposite here....I am not intending to say that its not a method at all....simply that you should be aware of the imbalance it can cause and not play it off as nothing.
Its better to be honest about the drawbacks and let people make up their minds with good information.
If they truly cared about experience in the books they would outline the different methods and give you a "You should use this method if" pep talk of sorts to help everyone understand what is best for their individual table.
This is wrong. It does not server YOUR enjoyment of the game. Stop acting like what you find fun is the only true fun and pretending like you are defending the poor helpless ill informed players at other people's gaming tables.
This whole thread has been about nothing other than people telling other people that what they enjoy is wrong and that they should stop doing it that way.
The original purpose of the thread (as divisive as the language used was) was to discuss the merits (or lack thereof) of the 4d6 rolling system. OptimusGrimus is trying to highlight what he/she believes is the drawbacks to the system, not be dismissive of how you choose to play it at your table. He/She has explicitly said several times, including in the areas you are quoting him/her
They do say that it is ok, then follow that up with statements like "Its disingenuous and does not serve to enjoyment of the game." which completely nullifies their statement that it is ok.
You can't say that it is ok for a person to enjoy what they like then follow that up by saying how wrong they are in the same breath.
Never said they were wrong...simply disingenuous to the CONs of the 4d6 methods as there was little to no discussion of any downsides to the system.
People had been pointing out the potential concerns but to completely dismiss/ignore them is disingenuous. There is a big difference in the intent when the concern is originated around the honesty of a statement and not the subjective nature of personal enjoyment.
To say "the problems you think there are not actually problems" is not really a good faith argument and should be addressed as such.
Just be honest with the pros/cons of each method and you will have a lot better time with your group. Not being honest is a sure fire way to cause issues and does not serve to the enjoyment of the game.....
So for clarification....I am not saying the 4d6 is the source of the non-enjoyment....the dishonesty about its consequences is.
What headache? There is no headache for me. 4d6 drop lowest doesn't make me do anything I might not do anyway.
To have an 18 point swing in ASI between characters can be a headache for quite a few people and to not even see that as a potential problem is incredibly disingenuous.
So many other things can be problems, and are actually hard to deal with.Using the standard array guarantees practically nothing other han everyone having the same potential - certainly not comparable outcomes. A group with a couple of players who really optimize their characters and a couple of others who make choices on a whim can result in similar discrepancies as random statlines, but with a much bigger impact and no easy solutions. Taking uneven statlines into account on the other hand is just part of evaluating complete character builds and party compositions to see who excells at what and who has trouble with what.
Different statlines are not the problem, differences in character effectiveness are. Different statlines can lead to differences in character effectiveness, but if they do there are several easy as pie solutions for that and other character aspects have an impact that's much harder to mitigate. Pointing at stat generation as the big bad is what's disingenuous.
All those things are compounded by a large stat difference though.... So yes those still exist but they can just be amplified.
In which case the stat difference is still the easy part to address, and the effort of checking the character is the same either way. That's my point. Using random stat generation doesn't significantly increase my workload as a DM, or make it meaningfully harder.
That is why it is flawed. If the DM has to correct for an issue stemming from how you determine stats, then that method of determining stats is flawed. Again, the fact that you have to correct for it for the sake of balance makes it flawed. You cant control how experienced your players are or whether they will make good choices in a game, but you can control that player not also starting with a character that's drastically above or below the expected value.
You don't have to make any balance corrections for point buy or standard array, and therefor they are not flawed. Even if it is easy for you as a DM to balance around the flaws of 4d6, that does not make the flaw nonexistent nor insignificant.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
I don't begrudge anyone doing what is fun for their table and I support it if all parties involved are well informed about the different methods and what the pros/cons of each are.
What I don't like is being disingenuous about the CONs of the 4d6 method and how it can affect game balance. Its fine to do anything you want but having at least a healthy respect for the math behind the balance gives you an idea of the caveats of each system.
To say a +1 or +2 is not a big deal is just not understanding how it applies to the system. The weapon example is actually not the greatest as that only affects damage and attack rolls....vs an ability score is much more generally applicable to a wider array of skills and features.
But Pangurjan, this game is not about your enjoyment, it is about the enjoyment of people not even playing at the same table as you. That is why they are so hard pressed to make sure the way you play is the way they like it.
I mean I actually say the exact opposite here....I am not intending to say that its not a method at all....simply that you should be aware of the imbalance it can cause and not play it off as nothing.
Its better to be honest about the drawbacks and let people make up their minds with good information.
If they truly cared about experience in the books they would outline the different methods and give you a "You should use this method if" pep talk of sorts to help everyone understand what is best for their individual table.
This is wrong. It does not server YOUR enjoyment of the game. Stop acting like what you find fun is the only true fun and pretending like you are defending the poor helpless ill informed players at other people's gaming tables.
This whole thread has been about nothing other than people telling other people that what they enjoy is wrong and that they should stop doing it that way.
The original purpose of the thread (as divisive as the language used was) was to discuss the merits (or lack thereof) of the 4d6 rolling system. OptimusGrimus is trying to highlight what he/she believes is the drawbacks to the system, not be dismissive of how you choose to play it at your table. He/She has explicitly said several times, including in the areas you are quoting him/her
They do say that it is ok, then follow that up with statements like "Its disingenuous and does not serve to enjoyment of the game." which completely nullifies their statement that it is ok.
You can't say that it is ok for a person to enjoy what they like then follow that up by saying how wrong they are in the same breath.
Never said they were wrong...simply disingenuous to the CONs of the 4d6 methods as there was little to no discussion of any downsides to the system.
People had been pointing out the potential concerns but to completely dismiss/ignore them is disingenuous. There is a big difference in the intent when the concern is originated around the honesty of a statement and not the subjective nature of personal enjoyment.
To say "the problems you think there are not actually problems" is not really a good faith argument and should be addressed as such.
Just be honest with the pros/cons of each method and you will have a lot better time with your group.
But the crux of it all is that it is a problem for you. Not me, not Pangurjan and the rest that enjoy rolling stats. You are pushing your own problems with a system on to others. Why do you think that you get to decide what is or isn't a problem for someone else?
I actually rolled a 16, a 17, and four 15s once, so 4d6kh does have problems, but almost all Ability Score Generation methods do.
That is patently untrue. The 27 point Buy system does not allow crazy stats. The Standard Array I guess is moot in this case, since stats are not really generated in that case. But that is why the 27 point buy or SA are the only methods that are balanced and ALWAYS fair.
I'm not saying that the problem is always the stat difference. I'm saying that there is no Perfect System of stat generation.
This is really where the focus should be....the point buy is problematic for some due to it creating similar characters and its limitation on stat maximum.
So I would talk to the group and say:
"Point buy will ensure we are all on the same power level but you will likely see that it produces similar characters to an extent. Also you will not be able to start with a stat higher than 17. This does mean everyone will have the same opportunity to create characters that should, at least at baseline, be fairly equal"
"Rolling can be fun due to the unknown. You can get stats as high as 20 if you roll well enough which means we will require more ingame changes to accomidate to provide an appropriate challenge. One caveat is that this method can, with a resonable amount of regularity, create significant stat imbalances between players. If we want to use this method I can discuss with you all how to address this. "
Or something of this nature.....takes little to no time and is honest about the caveats of the different approaches without ignoring the negative aspects of either.
Also, tell me more about how I need to change my playstyle to have more fun with my group. What exactly do you think went well in our last session and what do you think went poorly? What do you think about my wife's decision at the start of the game and how do you think it impacted everything going forward for the rest of the game?
I don't begrudge anyone doing what is fun for their table and I support it if all parties involved are well informed about the different methods and what the pros/cons of each are.
What I don't like is being disingenuous about the CONs of the 4d6 method and how it can affect game balance. Its fine to do anything you want but having at least a healthy respect for the math behind the balance gives you an idea of the caveats of each system.
To say a +1 or +2 is not a big deal is just not understanding how it applies to the system. The weapon example is actually not the greatest as that only affects damage and attack rolls....vs an ability score is much more generally applicable to a wider array of skills and features.
But Pangurjan, this game is not about your enjoyment, it is about the enjoyment of people not even playing at the same table as you. That is why they are so hard pressed to make sure the way you play is the way they like it.
I mean I actually say the exact opposite here....I am not intending to say that its not a method at all....simply that you should be aware of the imbalance it can cause and not play it off as nothing.
Its better to be honest about the drawbacks and let people make up their minds with good information.
If they truly cared about experience in the books they would outline the different methods and give you a "You should use this method if" pep talk of sorts to help everyone understand what is best for their individual table.
This is wrong. It does not server YOUR enjoyment of the game. Stop acting like what you find fun is the only true fun and pretending like you are defending the poor helpless ill informed players at other people's gaming tables.
This whole thread has been about nothing other than people telling other people that what they enjoy is wrong and that they should stop doing it that way.
The original purpose of the thread (as divisive as the language used was) was to discuss the merits (or lack thereof) of the 4d6 rolling system. OptimusGrimus is trying to highlight what he/she believes is the drawbacks to the system, not be dismissive of how you choose to play it at your table. He/She has explicitly said several times, including in the areas you are quoting him/her
They do say that it is ok, then follow that up with statements like "Its disingenuous and does not serve to enjoyment of the game." which completely nullifies their statement that it is ok.
You can't say that it is ok for a person to enjoy what they like then follow that up by saying how wrong they are in the same breath.
Never said they were wrong...simply disingenuous to the CONs of the 4d6 methods as there was little to no discussion of any downsides to the system.
People had been pointing out the potential concerns but to completely dismiss/ignore them is disingenuous. There is a big difference in the intent when the concern is originated around the honesty of a statement and not the subjective nature of personal enjoyment.
To say "the problems you think there are not actually problems" is not really a good faith argument and should be addressed as such.
Just be honest with the pros/cons of each method and you will have a lot better time with your group.
But the crux of it all is that it is a problem for you. Not me, not Pangurjan and the rest that enjoy rolling stats. You are pushing your own problems with a system on to others. Why do you think that you get to decide what is or isn't a problem for someone else?
He/She is pushing that there is an issue with 4d6 because that is the point of the thread. To outline and discuss the merits and flaws of the system was why this whole thread was started. His/Her problem with the system is addressing what the thread set out to do (regardless of the fact that the original poster approached it from a rather "already determined" angle.
Again, addressing the issues of 4d6 is the point of the thread, so anyone giving their opinion or analysis of why they think that is or is not should not be treated like "pushing your own problems" Addressing problems you do or do not have with the system is the point of the thread.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
I don't begrudge anyone doing what is fun for their table and I support it if all parties involved are well informed about the different methods and what the pros/cons of each are.
What I don't like is being disingenuous about the CONs of the 4d6 method and how it can affect game balance. Its fine to do anything you want but having at least a healthy respect for the math behind the balance gives you an idea of the caveats of each system.
To say a +1 or +2 is not a big deal is just not understanding how it applies to the system. The weapon example is actually not the greatest as that only affects damage and attack rolls....vs an ability score is much more generally applicable to a wider array of skills and features.
But Pangurjan, this game is not about your enjoyment, it is about the enjoyment of people not even playing at the same table as you. That is why they are so hard pressed to make sure the way you play is the way they like it.
I mean I actually say the exact opposite here....I am not intending to say that its not a method at all....simply that you should be aware of the imbalance it can cause and not play it off as nothing.
Its better to be honest about the drawbacks and let people make up their minds with good information.
If they truly cared about experience in the books they would outline the different methods and give you a "You should use this method if" pep talk of sorts to help everyone understand what is best for their individual table.
This is wrong. It does not server YOUR enjoyment of the game. Stop acting like what you find fun is the only true fun and pretending like you are defending the poor helpless ill informed players at other people's gaming tables.
This whole thread has been about nothing other than people telling other people that what they enjoy is wrong and that they should stop doing it that way.
The original purpose of the thread (as divisive as the language used was) was to discuss the merits (or lack thereof) of the 4d6 rolling system. OptimusGrimus is trying to highlight what he/she believes is the drawbacks to the system, not be dismissive of how you choose to play it at your table. He/She has explicitly said several times, including in the areas you are quoting him/her
They do say that it is ok, then follow that up with statements like "Its disingenuous and does not serve to enjoyment of the game." which completely nullifies their statement that it is ok.
You can't say that it is ok for a person to enjoy what they like then follow that up by saying how wrong they are in the same breath.
Never said they were wrong...simply disingenuous to the CONs of the 4d6 methods as there was little to no discussion of any downsides to the system.
People had been pointing out the potential concerns but to completely dismiss/ignore them is disingenuous. There is a big difference in the intent when the concern is originated around the honesty of a statement and not the subjective nature of personal enjoyment.
To say "the problems you think there are not actually problems" is not really a good faith argument and should be addressed as such.
Just be honest with the pros/cons of each method and you will have a lot better time with your group.
But the crux of it all is that it is a problem for you. Not me, not Pangurjan and the rest that enjoy rolling stats. You are pushing your own problems with a system on to others. Why do you think that you get to decide what is or isn't a problem for someone else?
Its just how math works...it will be an issue regardless as thats just how things will be. If you do not choose to let people know how this can affect them that is your choice but it is disingenuous.as you know the math behind the issue but are choosing not to tell someone about it.
To me it makes no sense to start a game with inherit dishonesty about the system and how it interacts with their choices. I am simply advocating for transparency about these issues and seeing if it is indeed a big enough issue for your group to even care about. A lot probably won't and that's fine...but at least they made an informed choice.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I mean why have the headache? We could go back and forth on that forever TBH and make much process either way.
Like I mentioned before I don't begrudge you if its fun for your table and everyone has gotten clear information on the pros/cons of each approach. Where I draw the line is not giving that information to players or just disregarding them as "not mattering".
Tables have different approaches but respect and honesty is one that all should have.
What headache? There is no headache for me. 4d6 drop lowest doesn't make me do anything I might not do anyway.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I mean I actually say the exact opposite here....I am not intending to say that its not a method at all....simply that you should be aware of the imbalance it can cause and not play it off as nothing.
Its disingenuous and does not serve to enjoyment of the game. Its better to be honest about the drawbacks and let people make up their minds with good information.
If they truly cared about experience in the books they would outline the different methods and give you a "You should use this method if" pep talk of sorts to help everyone understand what is best for their individual table.
To have an 18 point swing in ASI between characters can be a headache for quite a few people and to not even see that as a potential problem is incredibly disingenuous.
To further put that into perspective, 18 points is effectively 9 ASIs (giving +2 to some score). Thats more than all of the classes get in the entirety of the leveling system. In other words, its impossible for a character on the low end to by level 20 have the same scores that one of their teammates started the game with. The character that rolled poorly will forever be in the shadow of the other players at the table and it can very easily take away from the enjoyment of playing a character if you feel they are not contributing.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
This is wrong. It does not server YOUR enjoyment of the game. Stop acting like what you find fun is the only true fun and pretending like you are defending the poor helpless ill informed players at other people's gaming tables.
This whole thread has been about nothing other than people telling other people that what they enjoy is wrong and that they should stop doing it that way.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
The original purpose of the thread (as divisive as the language used was) was to discuss the merits (or lack thereof) of the 4d6 rolling system. OptimusGrimus is trying to highlight what he/she believes is the drawbacks to the system, not be dismissive of how you choose to play it at your table. He/She has explicitly said several times, including in the areas you are quoting him/her
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
This is a problem for you. Not everyone feels this way and that is ok. People find different things enjoyable and that is ok.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
So many other things can be problems, and are actually hard to deal with.Using the standard array guarantees practically nothing other han everyone having the same potential - certainly not comparable outcomes. A group with a couple of players who really optimize their characters and a couple of others who make choices on a whim can result in similar discrepancies as random statlines, but with a much bigger impact and no easy solutions. Taking uneven statlines into account on the other hand is just part of evaluating complete character builds and party compositions to see who excells at what and who has trouble with what.
Different statlines are not the problem, differences in character effectiveness are. Different statlines can lead to differences in character effectiveness, but if they do there are several easy as pie solutions for that and other character aspects have an impact that's much harder to mitigate. Pointing at stat generation as the big bad is what's disingenuous.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
All those things are compounded by a large stat difference though.... So yes those still exist but they can just be amplified.
They do say that it is ok, then follow that up with statements like "Its disingenuous and does not serve to enjoyment of the game." which completely nullifies their statement that it is ok.
You can't say that it is ok for a person to enjoy what they like then follow that up by saying how wrong they are in the same breath.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
In which case the stat difference is still the easy part to address, and the effort of checking the character is the same either way. That's my point. Using random stat generation doesn't significantly increase my workload as a DM, or make it meaningfully harder.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I'm not saying that the problem is always the stat difference. I'm saying that there is no Perfect System of stat generation.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
Never said they were wrong...simply disingenuous to the CONs of the 4d6 methods as there was little to no discussion of any downsides to the system.
People had been pointing out the potential concerns but to completely dismiss/ignore them is disingenuous. There is a big difference in the intent when the concern is originated around the honesty of a statement and not the subjective nature of personal enjoyment.
To say "the problems you think there are not actually problems" is not really a good faith argument and should be addressed as such.
Just be honest with the pros/cons of each method and you will have a lot better time with your group. Not being honest is a sure fire way to cause issues and does not serve to the enjoyment of the game.....
So for clarification....I am not saying the 4d6 is the source of the non-enjoyment....the dishonesty about its consequences is.
That is why it is flawed. If the DM has to correct for an issue stemming from how you determine stats, then that method of determining stats is flawed. Again, the fact that you have to correct for it for the sake of balance makes it flawed. You cant control how experienced your players are or whether they will make good choices in a game, but you can control that player not also starting with a character that's drastically above or below the expected value.
You don't have to make any balance corrections for point buy or standard array, and therefor they are not flawed. Even if it is easy for you as a DM to balance around the flaws of 4d6, that does not make the flaw nonexistent nor insignificant.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
But the crux of it all is that it is a problem for you. Not me, not Pangurjan and the rest that enjoy rolling stats. You are pushing your own problems with a system on to others. Why do you think that you get to decide what is or isn't a problem for someone else?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
This is really where the focus should be....the point buy is problematic for some due to it creating similar characters and its limitation on stat maximum.
So I would talk to the group and say:
"Point buy will ensure we are all on the same power level but you will likely see that it produces similar characters to an extent. Also you will not be able to start with a stat higher than 17. This does mean everyone will have the same opportunity to create characters that should, at least at baseline, be fairly equal"
"Rolling can be fun due to the unknown. You can get stats as high as 20 if you roll well enough which means we will require more ingame changes to accomidate to provide an appropriate challenge. One caveat is that this method can, with a resonable amount of regularity, create significant stat imbalances between players. If we want to use this method I can discuss with you all how to address this. "
Or something of this nature.....takes little to no time and is honest about the caveats of the different approaches without ignoring the negative aspects of either.
Also, tell me more about how I need to change my playstyle to have more fun with my group. What exactly do you think went well in our last session and what do you think went poorly? What do you think about my wife's decision at the start of the game and how do you think it impacted everything going forward for the rest of the game?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
He/She is pushing that there is an issue with 4d6 because that is the point of the thread. To outline and discuss the merits and flaws of the system was why this whole thread was started. His/Her problem with the system is addressing what the thread set out to do (regardless of the fact that the original poster approached it from a rather "already determined" angle.
Again, addressing the issues of 4d6 is the point of the thread, so anyone giving their opinion or analysis of why they think that is or is not should not be treated like "pushing your own problems" Addressing problems you do or do not have with the system is the point of the thread.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Its just how math works...it will be an issue regardless as thats just how things will be. If you do not choose to let people know how this can affect them that is your choice but it is disingenuous.as you know the math behind the issue but are choosing not to tell someone about it.
To me it makes no sense to start a game with inherit dishonesty about the system and how it interacts with their choices. I am simply advocating for transparency about these issues and seeing if it is indeed a big enough issue for your group to even care about. A lot probably won't and that's fine...but at least they made an informed choice.