Vince, you continue to espouse both overly rigid and egocentric viewpoints that overgeneralize thousands of players into a category that you then assign a negative connotation to. You are not the arbiter of D&D, nor do your viewpoints affect how anyone else enjoys or plays the game. 4d6 drop lowest is used by many groups of people for many different reasons, and it is the "default" as it were, of character generation in the PH and has been for years through multiple iterations of the game.
D&D is a game. It is played for fun/enjoyment. If people like 4d6 because its variability allows for more easily defined PC strengths and flaws/weaknesses, that is fine so long as they and their table have fun. If people like 4d6 because it allows them to optimize a heroic character in a fantasy game and feel powerful when they play, that is also fine so long as they and their table have fun. If people like 4d6 because that's how they learned and they simply like doing it that way, that is, again, fine so long as they and their table have fun. People are allowed to play D&D for practically any reason and with any goal in mind, and those reasons and goals are valid so long as they and their table are having fun.
If fun for you and your table is standard array, 3d6 in order, 4d6 drop lowest, point buy, or anything else, then fine, play the way you want. No one is stopping you or judging you for doing that. But likewise, don't belittle, denigrate, demean, mock, or gatekeep when others do things differently. The only "correct" way to play D&D is the way that allows people and their tables to have fun doing it.
For the 18th time. There is only one reason to use the 4d6 method. That is to get better stats. Any other reason can be done with any all other systems.
Any other system is not the one I used when I was 9 and I first started playing. No other system can be that but rolling. No other system can remind me of playing with my middle school friends. No other system can remind me of when my dad handed me that red box and said, “I think you’ll like this game.” I like it, because it makes me happy. No other system does that for me either. For the 18th time, ”a” reason to do something is not the same as “the only” reason to do something. There can be other reasons. You may not like them or understand them, but they still exist.
For the 18th time. There is only one reason to use the 4d6 method. That is to get better stats. Any other reason can be done with any all other systems.
You can't get random results without a random generation system.
A 27 point can easily emulate one. The only difference is the stats of a 27 point buy can't be as high, which is what it is all about.
Emulate shmemulate. Random means you have little or no control over what you get. Point buy means you have total control over what you get. Moving on!
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If fun for you and your table is standard array, 3d6 in order, 4d6 drop lowest, point buy, or anything else, then fine, play the way you want. No one is stopping you or judging you for doing that. But likewise, don't belittle, denigrate, demean, mock, or gatekeep when others do things differently. The only "correct" way to play D&D is the way that allows people and their tables to have fun doing it.
Yeah, this is the most important part.
Although I have not been in a lot of online D&D communities (mostly Beyond and occasionally Reddit), it seems like roleplayers are the most toxic, judgmental, and authoritarian people around as they are the ones whining and shitting on powergamers. I know not all of roleplayers are like that, but the behavior of a few not only reflects poorly on roleplayers as a group, it also reflects poorly on the entire D&D community to outsiders as well. They make power gamers look like saints, and honestly, issues of metagaming seem pretty trivial to deal with once you browse DMing guides and how-to's a bit. I have collected plenty of tools to deal with power gaming on the fly if I really need to up the challenge (my personal favorites are fluctuating monster HP, enemy reinforcements, and the classic fudging of dice rolls). Out of session, I can just pull a player to the side or have a session zero for the group and reexamine our expectations if things really get out of hand. At worst, I can always just kick a player or end the campaign and restart with fewer players.
On the other hand, I am not sure I have the tools to deal with killjoy and unpleasantness outside of screening, talking, and kicking, but those are all out of session tools. If the first thing a person spouts is "I hate powergamers", "I hate Tasha's", "I hate this", and "I hate that" 99% of the time, I guess filtering them out during sessions zero is not going to be that difficult, or if I am a player, I would just simply run as far away from those kinds of tables.
For the 18th time. There is only one reason to use the 4d6 method. That is to get better stats. Any other reason can be done with any all other systems.
Sigh... I guess I knew what kind of response I was going to get. You are espousing an opinion. Others disagree with that opinion. the entire conversation is about a subjective topic (human motivation), so the only way to validate your opinion is to survey the motivations of others, there are no other "hard" data to prove a point. Opinions are not facts, but you present your opinion as a fact. Factually, your opinion is stated to be true if and only if no other person espouses a differing motivation. multiple posts espousing motivations that are different (most recently #593 above) would seem to prove that there are in fact multiple motivations to use 4d6 method, so your opinion, presented as fact, is false. You can continue to hold it as an opinion, but rest assured, you have been heard and I don't think you are convincing many (if anyone) to agree with you, so continuing to espouse it in this thread or forum is probably not a valuable use of your time (but you of course are the best judge of the value of your time).
A 27 point can easily emulate one. The only difference is the stats of a 27 point buy can't be as high, which is what it is all about.
27 point buy does not "emulate" randomness. It provides (edit: a modicum of) variety. Variety is not randomness. 27 point buy is actually the opposite of random, because its process is entirely controlled and chosen by the player. to be random, you have to have a random number generator. Dice rolls are "random". Selecting numbers from a list of options (points or no) is most definitely not.
If your (or any DMs) issue is that players will re-roll the 4d6 until they get what they want, that is easily controlled by rolling as a group during a session 0 where you can enforce a single roll (you also have that potential problem with any method that involves dice, including 3d6). If your issue is that the possible highest score is higher than other methods, that can be controlled by the introduction of a few simple rules by the DM. My version is: "you can't have a score higher than 18 at level 1 after racial/lineage mods are applied." you could set that limit to anything. There are lots of ways to easily "fix" any supposed problems with a given method of generating scores.
Edit: add clarifying language to "variety" based on below conversation
For the 18th time. There is only one reason to use the 4d6 method. That is to get better stats. Any other reason can be done with any all other systems.
Sigh... I guess I knew what kind of response I was going to get. You are espousing an opinion. Others disagree with that opinion.
Others disagree because that "opinion" is factually and demonstrably incorrect. Something that can be objectively shown to be either correct or false is not a matter of opinion. You're either right about it or you're wrong about it. We're not debating the merits of mayonaise vs ketchup on fries or whether cats are better than dogs or vice versa.
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27 point buy does not "emulate" randomness. It provides variety.
I honestly does not think it does. I think that, on the contrary, almost all the 27-points buys for a given class and race give more or less exactly the same result, because they are used for a "build". And all the ASIs and feats are pre-computed for the same reason. This is not variety, it is parotting, and it's the reason for which the minmaxers are displeased with 5e, they have found only a few acceptable paths, have forced the 90% of the community that cannot think for themselves to replicate and propagate them and just want more options as excuses to do the computations again, not that they ever intend to play them anyway... :p
Yikes.
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27 point buy does not "emulate" randomness. It provides variety.
I honestly does not think it does. I think that, on the contrary, almost all the 27-points buys for a given class and race give more or less exactly the same result, because they are used for a "build". And all the ASIs and feats are pre-computed for the same reason. This is not variety, it is parotting, and it's the reason for which the minmaxers are displeased with 5e, they have found only a few acceptable paths, have forced the 90% of the community that cannot think for themselves to replicate and propagate them and just want more options as excuses to do the computations again, not that they ever intend to play them anyway... :p
I probably should have said it provides "limited variety", as in, more than Standard Array's, but certainly a lot less than rolled arrays. And I do agree that min/maxers and powergamers would probably be drawn to 4d6 methods, due to the possibility of higher scores. I disagree that it is only min/maxers and powergamers that are drawn to the method, and I disagree that people drawn to the method are only drawn for min/max or powergaming reasons. Those are Vince's opinions (at least as communicated in this thread), and I believe I have explained why I disagree with them well enough.
I also think that the possible "fixes" to make 4d6 less appealing for those types of players are easy enough to implement that a complaint about the method as a whole is hardly warranted. I detailed possible fixes in a portion of the post you didn't copy. Honestly, enforcing a "single roll only" method would fix 90% of the issue (the other 10% just getting lucky with their rolls, of course). Finally, I think that power-gaming and min/maxing is a valid way to play, on the condition that you and your table have fun doing so (your table including the DM, of course). It's not my preferred way to play, but the game is about fun, so no reason to invalidate someone else's fun, so long as it doesn't come at the expense of others at the table.
I honestly does not think it does. I think that, on the contrary, almost all the 27-points buys for a given class and race give more or less exactly the same result, because they are used for a "build".
On 4k3, you put your best stat in your primary attack, your second best stat in a secondary stat (usually Con or Dex), your third best stat in a tertiary stat (usually whichever wasn't the secondary), and the order of the remaining stats is semi-random. On 27 points you do exactly the same thing except your best stat (after racial adjustments) is almost certainly a 16, your second-best a 14 or 16, your third a 12 or 14, and the rest in the 8-12 range. While it's true that 27 point buy doesn't produce a lot of unusual ability distributions, the reality is that if you allow reordering stats, neither does rolling for stats.
I honestly does not think it does. I think that, on the contrary, almost all the 27-points buys for a given class and race give more or less exactly the same result, because they are used for a "build".
On 4k3, you put your best stat in your primary attack, your second best stat in a secondary stat (usually Con or Dex), your third best stat in a tertiary stat (usually whichever wasn't the secondary), and the order of the remaining stats is semi-random. On 27 points you do exactly the same thing except your best stat (after racial adjustments) is almost certainly a 16, your second-best a 14 or 16, your third a 12 or 14, and the rest in the 8-12 range. While it's true that 27 point buy doesn't produce a lot of unusual ability distributions, the reality is that if you allow reordering stats, neither does rolling for stats.
Yeah the only thing the 4d6 does is make those stats differ more than Point Buy or Standard.
I like the Increased point buy approach and letting people "refund" down to a 6 in a stat if they want. That way you have more clear Strengths/Weaknesses if you want in a character.
Like I made a Goblin Handcrossbow like this....I bought up to an 18 in my DEX but took my STR down to a 6. So I had 6 18 16 8 14 8. I was a dumb weak somwhat gruff goblin but was super tough and could shoot a pill out of the air and had a knack for sensing bullshit.
While it's true that 27 point buy doesn't produce a lot of unusual ability distributions, the reality is that if you allow reordering stats, neither does rolling for stats.
That does depend somewhat on how that rolled statline shakes out. 27 point buy restricts you to 8-15 in stats before racial adjustments, after all.
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While it's true that 27 point buy doesn't produce a lot of unusual ability distributions, the reality is that if you allow reordering stats, neither does rolling for stats.
That does depend somewhat on how that rolled statline shakes out. 27 point buy restricts you to 8-15 in stats before racial adjustments, after all.
That just means "Same character, only better" or "same character, only worse". You only get actually unusual characters if you forbid rearranging stats.
I like the Increased point buy approach and letting people "refund" down to a 6 in a stat if they want. That way you have more clear Strengths/Weaknesses if you want in a character.
Because of the heavy variation in utility of stats, you want pretty extreme cost adjustments. I've considered something like:
While it's true that 27 point buy doesn't produce a lot of unusual ability distributions, the reality is that if you allow reordering stats, neither does rolling for stats.
That does depend somewhat on how that rolled statline shakes out. 27 point buy restricts you to 8-15 in stats before racial adjustments, after all.
This is fair and since there is no longer a way for a -2 you will end up with more "normalized" stats with Point Buy.
Thats why I like the expanded/refund point buy approach myself.
Point buy is kinda crappy and will force players to use ASIs and skip feats that are pretty cool. I am a bigger fan of 4d6 drop the lowest and reroll 1's. Having a character's primary stat need at most one ASI to max out allows for a lore more flavor and customizing. In games where I have DMd point buy and played in AL, there are rarely feats before tier 3 and even then players complain about it. With rolling, everyone seems happier and ability scores aren't even a discussion at those tables, at least ones that I play and DM. Who wants to play an average character? You are role playing a Wizard, not a farm hand, you are supposed to be epic. When I have a table to super high ability score players, I turn back the magic items that are given out and that scales the encounters back a bit. I'd rather have it that way than hear moaning and complaining about how they want a feat but can't bla bla bla...
Thank you for confirming that 4d6 is for power-gamers who care about stats. For the 17th time, there is no other reason to use the 4d6 method. BTW, epic scores are 16.
If we just all say that 4d6 is for power gamers who care about stats, will you then be happy and leave this subject alone?
Will you then in turn state for the record that there's nothing wrong with being a power gamer and we're all allowed to have fun in our own ways?
Would be nice if you also, for the record, could confirm that roleplaying and powergaming isn't mutually exclusive, and neither is better than the other.
While it's true that 27 point buy doesn't produce a lot of unusual ability distributions, the reality is that if you allow reordering stats, neither does rolling for stats.
That does depend somewhat on how that rolled statline shakes out. 27 point buy restricts you to 8-15 in stats before racial adjustments, after all.
That just means "Same character, only better" or "same character, only worse". You only get actually unusual characters if you forbid rearranging stats.
I don't know about that. I've had players gleefully dump up to three stats in point buy (and would go below 8 if they could), and others who couldn't bring themselves to take more than one stat below 10. Point buy might be more varied than you think, and at the same time rolled stats may end up further out of players' usual comfort zones.
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While it's true that 27 point buy doesn't produce a lot of unusual ability distributions, the reality is that if you allow reordering stats, neither does rolling for stats.
That does depend somewhat on how that rolled statline shakes out. 27 point buy restricts you to 8-15 in stats before racial adjustments, after all.
That just means "Same character, only better" or "same character, only worse". You only get actually unusual characters if you forbid rearranging stats.
I like the Increased point buy approach and letting people "refund" down to a 6 in a stat if they want. That way you have more clear Strengths/Weaknesses if you want in a character.
Because of the heavy variation in utility of stats, you want pretty extreme cost adjustments. I've considered something like:
I myself really do not see rolling 4d6 being for power gaming a power gamer doesn't want the chance of bad rolls, using the character builder here I rolled up characters I went through 6 sets before giving up trying to get a 18. Most of the rolls were in the stat array or point buy values except for 1 set with 3 17's and 12, 13, 15. I do not have issues with it either way if I'm a player and the DM says use standard array or point buy I use them if they say roll I roll. Sometimes I wonder if the folks against it just roll bad when doing it so just say everyone else is a power gamer for rolling'
EDIT: For the below statement
Not to actually insult anyone here just rereading this sounded not so cool.
Don't know if someone has said this before, but my system is 4d6 drop lowest for 4 rolls, and 5d6 drop lowest 2 for the rest. If they get bad rolls and don't want to keep them, have them use standard array. That way, everyone is powerful and even with bad luck they can still have okay stats. I also like to have people have at least one negative (nine or lower) to keep them still vulnerable in at least one regard. What do you think?
How on earth did that person get a 4. It should have been at least a 6, as you're meant to re-roll one's and drop the lowest number. It sounds like their DM was just being an ass or using the 4d6 system in a way contrary to its description j in the book.
In a recent post, I talked about how I got terrible rolls, while rolling for ability scores, for a recent one-shot I was playing. Then in a follow-up, I spoke about how, despite having low ability scores, I enjoyed playing the character immensely.
It just took more thought to create the character than I would typically have put into it, which also meant that I had a much better time playing, as I didn't have a run-of-the-mill character that was the same as everyone else. It also meant that I experienced a class and subclass that I had never played before then.
Although the character was very SAD, his lack of ability in other areas, and his focus on support, made him extremely fun to play with and highly valued by the rest of the party.
So, in general, I think rolled stats have the potential to create some excellent characters. Would that person have complained if they had rolled all 18s in everything? Although I still believe that DM was a bit of an ass.
How on earth did that person get a 4. It should have been at least a 6, as you're meant to re-roll one's and drop the lowest number. It sounds like their DM was just being an ass or using the 4d6 system in a way contrary to its description j in the book.
In a recent post, I talked about how I got terrible rolls, while rolling for ability scores, for a recent one-shot I was playing. Then in a follow-up, I spoke about how, despite having low ability scores, I enjoyed playing the character immensely.
It just took more thought to create the character than I would typically have put into it, which also meant that I had a much better time playing, as I didn't have a run-of-the-mill character that was the same as everyone else. It also meant that I experienced a class and subclass that I had never played before then.
Although the character was very SAD, his lack of ability in other areas, and his focus on support, made him extremely fun to play with and highly valued by the rest of the party.
So, in general, I think rolled stats have the potential to create some excellent characters. Would that person have complained if they had rolled all 18s in everything? Although I still believe that DM was a bit of an ass.
You roll three ones and a two. It's perfectly possible to roll a four and I have a character with a five.
How on earth did that person get a 4. It should have been at least a 6, as you're meant to re-roll one's and drop the lowest number. It sounds like their DM was just being an ass or using the 4d6 system in a way contrary to its description j in the book.
In a recent post, I talked about how I got terrible rolls, while rolling for ability scores, for a recent one-shot I was playing. Then in a follow-up, I spoke about how, despite having low ability scores, I enjoyed playing the character immensely.
It just took more thought to create the character than I would typically have put into it, which also meant that I had a much better time playing, as I didn't have a run-of-the-mill character that was the same as everyone else. It also meant that I experienced a class and subclass that I had never played before then.
Although the character was very SAD, his lack of ability in other areas, and his focus on support, made him extremely fun to play with and highly valued by the rest of the party.
So, in general, I think rolled stats have the potential to create some excellent characters. Would that person have complained if they had rolled all 18s in everything? Although I still believe that DM was a bit of an ass.
Rerolling 1's sounds like a house rule....
You might be right. I have just used this so much now as a DM that I can't remember, to be honest, and I'm going to look it up now because it's going to drive me crazy.
Even so though, surely it should have been either a 3 or a 5?
Any other system is not the one I used when I was 9 and I first started playing. No other system can be that but rolling. No other system can remind me of playing with my middle school friends. No other system can remind me of when my dad handed me that red box and said, “I think you’ll like this game.” I like it, because it makes me happy. No other system does that for me either.
For the 18th time, ”a” reason to do something is not the same as “the only” reason to do something. There can be other reasons. You may not like them or understand them, but they still exist.
Emulate shmemulate. Random means you have little or no control over what you get. Point buy means you have total control over what you get. Moving on!
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Yeah, this is the most important part.
Although I have not been in a lot of online D&D communities (mostly Beyond and occasionally Reddit), it seems like roleplayers are the most toxic, judgmental, and authoritarian people around as they are the ones whining and shitting on powergamers. I know not all of roleplayers are like that, but the behavior of a few not only reflects poorly on roleplayers as a group, it also reflects poorly on the entire D&D community to outsiders as well. They make power gamers look like saints, and honestly, issues of metagaming seem pretty trivial to deal with once you browse DMing guides and how-to's a bit. I have collected plenty of tools to deal with power gaming on the fly if I really need to up the challenge (my personal favorites are fluctuating monster HP, enemy reinforcements, and the classic fudging of dice rolls). Out of session, I can just pull a player to the side or have a session zero for the group and reexamine our expectations if things really get out of hand. At worst, I can always just kick a player or end the campaign and restart with fewer players.
On the other hand, I am not sure I have the tools to deal with killjoy and unpleasantness outside of screening, talking, and kicking, but those are all out of session tools. If the first thing a person spouts is "I hate powergamers", "I hate Tasha's", "I hate this", and "I hate that" 99% of the time, I guess filtering them out during sessions zero is not going to be that difficult, or if I am a player, I would just simply run as far away from those kinds of tables.
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Sigh... I guess I knew what kind of response I was going to get. You are espousing an opinion. Others disagree with that opinion. the entire conversation is about a subjective topic (human motivation), so the only way to validate your opinion is to survey the motivations of others, there are no other "hard" data to prove a point. Opinions are not facts, but you present your opinion as a fact. Factually, your opinion is stated to be true if and only if no other person espouses a differing motivation. multiple posts espousing motivations that are different (most recently #593 above) would seem to prove that there are in fact multiple motivations to use 4d6 method, so your opinion, presented as fact, is false. You can continue to hold it as an opinion, but rest assured, you have been heard and I don't think you are convincing many (if anyone) to agree with you, so continuing to espouse it in this thread or forum is probably not a valuable use of your time (but you of course are the best judge of the value of your time).
27 point buy does not "emulate" randomness. It provides (edit: a modicum of) variety. Variety is not randomness. 27 point buy is actually the opposite of random, because its process is entirely controlled and chosen by the player. to be random, you have to have a random number generator. Dice rolls are "random". Selecting numbers from a list of options (points or no) is most definitely not.
If your (or any DMs) issue is that players will re-roll the 4d6 until they get what they want, that is easily controlled by rolling as a group during a session 0 where you can enforce a single roll (you also have that potential problem with any method that involves dice, including 3d6). If your issue is that the possible highest score is higher than other methods, that can be controlled by the introduction of a few simple rules by the DM. My version is: "you can't have a score higher than 18 at level 1 after racial/lineage mods are applied." you could set that limit to anything. There are lots of ways to easily "fix" any supposed problems with a given method of generating scores.
Edit: add clarifying language to "variety" based on below conversation
Others disagree because that "opinion" is factually and demonstrably incorrect. Something that can be objectively shown to be either correct or false is not a matter of opinion. You're either right about it or you're wrong about it. We're not debating the merits of mayonaise vs ketchup on fries or whether cats are better than dogs or vice versa.
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Yikes.
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I probably should have said it provides "limited variety", as in, more than Standard Array's, but certainly a lot less than rolled arrays. And I do agree that min/maxers and powergamers would probably be drawn to 4d6 methods, due to the possibility of higher scores. I disagree that it is only min/maxers and powergamers that are drawn to the method, and I disagree that people drawn to the method are only drawn for min/max or powergaming reasons. Those are Vince's opinions (at least as communicated in this thread), and I believe I have explained why I disagree with them well enough.
I also think that the possible "fixes" to make 4d6 less appealing for those types of players are easy enough to implement that a complaint about the method as a whole is hardly warranted. I detailed possible fixes in a portion of the post you didn't copy. Honestly, enforcing a "single roll only" method would fix 90% of the issue (the other 10% just getting lucky with their rolls, of course). Finally, I think that power-gaming and min/maxing is a valid way to play, on the condition that you and your table have fun doing so (your table including the DM, of course). It's not my preferred way to play, but the game is about fun, so no reason to invalidate someone else's fun, so long as it doesn't come at the expense of others at the table.
Edit: Spelling and Grammar
On 4k3, you put your best stat in your primary attack, your second best stat in a secondary stat (usually Con or Dex), your third best stat in a tertiary stat (usually whichever wasn't the secondary), and the order of the remaining stats is semi-random. On 27 points you do exactly the same thing except your best stat (after racial adjustments) is almost certainly a 16, your second-best a 14 or 16, your third a 12 or 14, and the rest in the 8-12 range. While it's true that 27 point buy doesn't produce a lot of unusual ability distributions, the reality is that if you allow reordering stats, neither does rolling for stats.
Yeah the only thing the 4d6 does is make those stats differ more than Point Buy or Standard.
I like the Increased point buy approach and letting people "refund" down to a 6 in a stat if they want. That way you have more clear Strengths/Weaknesses if you want in a character.
Like I made a Goblin Handcrossbow like this....I bought up to an 18 in my DEX but took my STR down to a 6. So I had 6 18 16 8 14 8. I was a dumb weak somwhat gruff goblin but was super tough and could shoot a pill out of the air and had a knack for sensing bullshit.
Overall one of my most fun builds.
That does depend somewhat on how that rolled statline shakes out. 27 point buy restricts you to 8-15 in stats before racial adjustments, after all.
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That just means "Same character, only better" or "same character, only worse". You only get actually unusual characters if you forbid rearranging stats.
Because of the heavy variation in utility of stats, you want pretty extreme cost adjustments. I've considered something like:
Characters are built on 30 points, but racial bonuses just adjust point cost, not final stat value.
This is fair and since there is no longer a way for a -2 you will end up with more "normalized" stats with Point Buy.
Thats why I like the expanded/refund point buy approach myself.
If we just all say that 4d6 is for power gamers who care about stats, will you then be happy and leave this subject alone?
Will you then in turn state for the record that there's nothing wrong with being a power gamer and we're all allowed to have fun in our own ways?
Would be nice if you also, for the record, could confirm that roleplaying and powergaming isn't mutually exclusive, and neither is better than the other.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
I don't know about that. I've had players gleefully dump up to three stats in point buy (and would go below 8 if they could), and others who couldn't bring themselves to take more than one stat below 10. Point buy might be more varied than you think, and at the same time rolled stats may end up further out of players' usual comfort zones.
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I've never seen that bottom example before but honestly makes a bit more sense than the way like Chicken Dinner does it by default.
Fortunately enough they let you adjust costs and everything so its really really easy.
I like this approach myself simply because you can put exactly what you want where but still be limited in power by the system.
I myself really do not see rolling 4d6 being for power gaming a power gamer doesn't want the chance of bad rolls, using the character builder here I rolled up characters I went through 6 sets before giving up trying to get a 18. Most of the rolls were in the stat array or point buy values except for 1 set with 3 17's and 12, 13, 15. I do not have issues with it either way if I'm a player and the DM says use standard array or point buy I use them if they say roll I roll. Sometimes I wonder if the folks against it just roll bad when doing it so just say everyone else is a power gamer for rolling'
EDIT: For the below statement
Not to actually insult anyone here just rereading this sounded not so cool.
Don't know if someone has said this before, but my system is 4d6 drop lowest for 4 rolls, and 5d6 drop lowest 2 for the rest. If they get bad rolls and don't want to keep them, have them use standard array. That way, everyone is powerful and even with bad luck they can still have okay stats. I also like to have people have at least one negative (nine or lower) to keep them still vulnerable in at least one regard. What do you think?
How on earth did that person get a 4. It should have been at least a 6, as you're meant to re-roll one's and drop the lowest number. It sounds like their DM was just being an ass or using the 4d6 system in a way contrary to its description j in the book.
In a recent post, I talked about how I got terrible rolls, while rolling for ability scores, for a recent one-shot I was playing. Then in a follow-up, I spoke about how, despite having low ability scores, I enjoyed playing the character immensely.
It just took more thought to create the character than I would typically have put into it, which also meant that I had a much better time playing, as I didn't have a run-of-the-mill character that was the same as everyone else. It also meant that I experienced a class and subclass that I had never played before then.
Although the character was very SAD, his lack of ability in other areas, and his focus on support, made him extremely fun to play with and highly valued by the rest of the party.
So, in general, I think rolled stats have the potential to create some excellent characters. Would that person have complained if they had rolled all 18s in everything? Although I still believe that DM was a bit of an ass.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
You roll three ones and a two. It's perfectly possible to roll a four and I have a character with a five.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
You might be right. I have just used this so much now as a DM that I can't remember, to be honest, and I'm going to look it up now because it's going to drive me crazy.
Even so though, surely it should have been either a 3 or a 5?
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.