I just tried the "homebrew solution". I homebrewed "Sleep" to "Sleep (2014)". OK that's fine.
HOWEVER, my Twilight Cleric, which always has "Sleep" prepared (due to the class feature), will forever use the built-in version and never my homebrew version.
Why do people keep saying "90% of spells are the same" or "It's only a few spells that have changed" or "Just a few dozen."
This does not appear to be true.
According to a reputable source, there are 106 spells that have been mechanically changed in some way. (From what I can see here)
On top of that, in order to effectively restore your access to these original versions of spells and their functionality in the character sheet, you would not only need to homebrew these spells manually, you would also need to homebrew the following features: (As mentioned elsewhere in this thread by WolfmanRIP)
Every subclass that grants spells needs to be homebrewed
Every item that grants spells needs to be homebrewed
Every warlock invocation that grants spells - these cannot be homebrewed and will not be usable with 2014 rules
Every class that grants extra spells (mainly through the Tasha's expanded spell lists) - as far as I know these also cannot be homebrewed so will be unusable.
Every monster that casts spells will need to be homebrewed
(Adding one of my own here) Every mundane and magical item that is being changed with the new ruleset (the numbers of which are as of yet unknown)
Which is, of course, to speak nothing about the actual monetary value that every single person who has purchased digital rulebooks from D&D Beyond is losing out on.
It's been argued ad nauseam but we say it louder for the people in the back.
The vast majority of those upset feel they have been wronged because when they purchased the digital copies of these books, they bought into an agreement, understanding, promise, whatever you wish to call it, that they would be able to utilize this content, AS STATED IN THE PRODUCT DETAILS TO THIS VERY DAY, within D&D Beyond's "Digital Toolset".
When this functionality is removed from the site, those of us who specifically purchased access to use this content in the Digital Toolset will effectively have the primary purpose of our purchases ripped away from us. This is what we find unacceptable. This is what we find objectionable.
We recognize that there are people who are happy to receive these updates for free. We understand that they see this as 'getting something instead of nothing'.
But WE DO NOT SEE IT THE SAME WAY. It is clear, if you take just a brief glance around the various D&D communities around the internet that a significant majority of discourse centers around the fact that we FIND LITTLE TO NO VALUE IN THE 2024 RULESET that we will be receiving because we DID NOT ASK FOR IT AND DO NOT WANT TO USE IT.
The decisions by whatever powers that be to take a Profit focused approach (Because it is very clear that this is a push to 'encourage' long-standing members of the D&D Beyond community to spend even more money buying into updated systems they do not want or need by cutting off their access to the Digital Toolset they have already paid to use), is predatory, insulting, and a betrayal of their userbase.
What would we like to be done about it?
I would hope the answer to that question would be obvious.
Must-Have: - Creating a duplicate database for the 2014 content that, upon character/campaign creation, can be selected, via a toggle, dropdown menu, etc, as the primary ruleset for said character/campaign which would allow new and existing 5e characters and campaigns to proceed unchanged. Would be Nice: - Develop a system to migrate existing 2014 characters/campaigns to the updated 2024 ruleset for those who wish to opt-in to the new rules in the future. Pipe-Dream: - Assurances that support for 2014 content within the Digital Toolset will be protected for as long as a significant portion (Can be defined later) of the userbase of D&D Beyond still utilizes the game-system.
Please Note:I, by no means, speak for everyone who is upset by these changes, but I have seen a significant amount of people making these statements all across the internet.
If I have missed something, or misrepresented something, it is not due to intentional malice, and is very likely due to my own incompetency.
This!!! All of the code currently exists on the site for all of the affected spells and magic items. There is absolutely no reason at all that a toggle system can't be implemented in the character builder for 2014 content. I'm playing in a long-standing campaign with multiple new players who are still trying to learn their spells, and forcing them to now learn completely different rules for the spells they've already spent time with may drive them away from the game. Our group is considering switching platforms entirely to mitigate this if we can't play with the 2014 rules we are used to. WOTC shouldn't have promised backwards compatibility if they couldn't keep that promise.
This is literally Y2K all over again. This is hilarious 😂
If you understood what the Y2k problem was, you'd realize that it actually was a problem that is only hilarious in hindsight because people did a ton of work to fix it before it happened.
One more Ugly thing Beyond did is - Big sale not so long ago. Imagine Doing a sale on 5e content and then after a bit telling all the people who bought the books on sale that your books are WORTHLESS! We got you! Ha Ha! You thought you were buying stuff for cheap and will be able to use! Well guess what! You`re not! Ha! Now so long sucker! Your money is now ours!
This is inaccurate. The 2014 stuff isn't going away. Some character sheet functionality is being updated to 2024 but all the 2014 stuff is still fully useable outside of DDB AND most of it is still useable in DDB. It's compatible with the 2024 update.
Toolset content is explicitly part of what was purchased during the sale. That is now being removed. It is an outright lie to say that "The 2014 stuff isn't going away".
No, it's an outright lie to say it is going away. Even using your definition, only part of it is going away, which is exactly what I said. You have no standing to call me a liar.
If you prefer, saying "The 2014 stuff isn't going away" is a totally misleading statement to imply that you can continue using the 2014 rules, to the point that anyone reading it would feel lied to.
In actuality most of the "2014" stuff is being removed or rendered unusable, and it will be impossible to play under 2014 rules.
Again, that's completely inaccurate.
If I make a new character on 9/3, I'll be able to pick a 2014 class or a 2024 class, so classes didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 subclass or 2024 subclass so subclasses didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick 2014 feats or 2024 feats so feats didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 species or a 2024 species so those didn't go anywhere either. All that content that was purchased is COMPLETELY accessible.
Furthermore, if I bought adventures, they're still accessible, the monsters from those adventures are still accessible, the player options from those adventures are still accessible.
The ONLY things that are not accessible according to the changelog are a subset of things that are being updated to the 2024 versions, namely spell descriptions and rule definitions.
So tell me again how I'm a liar when I say that you have access to nearly everything you purchased during the sale.
True, you'll be able to choose the 2014 options, and even use 2014 spells if you homebrewed them before 9/3 when the changes are being instituted, but there are features IN THAT MATERIAL that will be affected by the addition of the 2024 material that CAN'T be homebrewed. Rule changes, such as Hide and Sneak Attack, just to use those as examples, will now appear on the character sheets with the 2024 text. Some of the subclasses will also be adversely affected, making them essentially unusable as 2014 subclasses on the character sheets. By doing so it alters the character sheets from a purely 2014 content character to an amalgamation of 2014/2024-something many working with 2014 do not want. Trying to use a 2014-based Warlock character sheet will become impossible since there is no way to use the 2014 invocations anymore. They will only have the 2024 invocations, and those can't be homebrewed.
A half-truth may not be lying, but it isn't totally correct either.
Where have we seen that Sneak Attack and the Invocations themselves won't be usable in their current state? Both are class features of 2014 and shouldn't be going anywhere. The Invocation issue has always been specifically that any spells they grant will point to the 2024 versions of the spells.
Similarly, Battle Master Fighter should be fine.
The point about invocations is that we can't use the 2014 versions with the 2014 spells. If you want to run a game under 2014 rules you cannot use any invocations that grant spells. It's the same with things like the expanded spell lists from TGE, I don't know if they'd count as part of the class or a seperate optional rule, but either way there is no way to homebrew them to point at the 2014 rules.
I'm not aware of issues with sneak attack, as that should come from the legacy rogue class rules, but it's possible another problems been discovered since I last looked. It's things like the hide rule (that they also mentioned) where there is no way to have the 2014 rules referenced on the character sheet.
One more Ugly thing Beyond did is - Big sale not so long ago. Imagine Doing a sale on 5e content and then after a bit telling all the people who bought the books on sale that your books are WORTHLESS! We got you! Ha Ha! You thought you were buying stuff for cheap and will be able to use! Well guess what! You`re not! Ha! Now so long sucker! Your money is now ours!
This is inaccurate. The 2014 stuff isn't going away. Some character sheet functionality is being updated to 2024 but all the 2014 stuff is still fully useable outside of DDB AND most of it is still useable in DDB. It's compatible with the 2024 update.
Toolset content is explicitly part of what was purchased during the sale. That is now being removed. It is an outright lie to say that "The 2014 stuff isn't going away".
No, it's an outright lie to say it is going away. Even using your definition, only part of it is going away, which is exactly what I said. You have no standing to call me a liar.
If you prefer, saying "The 2014 stuff isn't going away" is a totally misleading statement to imply that you can continue using the 2014 rules, to the point that anyone reading it would feel lied to.
In actuality most of the "2014" stuff is being removed or rendered unusable, and it will be impossible to play under 2014 rules.
Again, that's completely inaccurate.
If I make a new character on 9/3, I'll be able to pick a 2014 class or a 2024 class, so classes didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 subclass or 2024 subclass so subclasses didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick 2014 feats or 2024 feats so feats didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 species or a 2024 species so those didn't go anywhere either. All that content that was purchased is COMPLETELY accessible.
Furthermore, if I bought adventures, they're still accessible, the monsters from those adventures are still accessible, the player options from those adventures are still accessible.
The ONLY things that are not accessible according to the changelog are a subset of things that are being updated to the 2024 versions, namely spell descriptions and rule definitions.
So tell me again how I'm a liar when I say that you have access to nearly everything you purchased during the sale.
True, you'll be able to choose the 2014 options, and even use 2014 spells if you homebrewed them before 9/3 when the changes are being instituted, but there are features IN THAT MATERIAL that will be affected by the addition of the 2024 material that CAN'T be homebrewed. Rule changes, such as Hide and Sneak Attack, just to use those as examples, will now appear on the character sheets with the 2024 text. Some of the subclasses will also be adversely affected, making them essentially unusable as 2014 subclasses on the character sheets. By doing so it alters the character sheets from a purely 2014 content character to an amalgamation of 2014/2024-something many working with 2014 do not want. Trying to use a 2014-based Warlock character sheet will become impossible since there is no way to use the 2014 invocations anymore. They will only have the 2024 invocations, and those can't be homebrewed.
A half-truth may not be lying, but it isn't totally correct either.
Where have we seen that Sneak Attack and the Invocations themselves won't be usable in their current state? Both are class features of 2014 and shouldn't be going anywhere. The Invocation issue has always been specifically that any spells they grant will point to the 2024 versions of the spells.
Similarly, Battle Master Fighter should be fine.
The point about invocations is that we can't use the 2014 versions with the 2014 spells. If you want to run a game under 2014 rules you cannot use any invocations that grant spells. It's the same with things like the expanded spell lists from TGE, I don't know if they'd count as part of the class or a seperate optional rule, but either way there is no way to homebrew them to point at the 2014 rules.
I'm not aware of issues with sneak attack, as that should come from the legacy rogue class rules, but it's possible another problems been discovered since I last looked. It's things like the hide rule (that they also mentioned) where there is no way to have the 2014 rules referenced on the character sheet.
My point was that it appears there were some misconceptions in their understanding of the changes. Yes, the spells are altered as I pointed out, but the text of the invocations (and anything not tied to spells) will be unaffected.
Obviously, no contest on the spells and rule tooltips.
One more Ugly thing Beyond did is - Big sale not so long ago. Imagine Doing a sale on 5e content and then after a bit telling all the people who bought the books on sale that your books are WORTHLESS! We got you! Ha Ha! You thought you were buying stuff for cheap and will be able to use! Well guess what! You`re not! Ha! Now so long sucker! Your money is now ours!
This is inaccurate. The 2014 stuff isn't going away. Some character sheet functionality is being updated to 2024 but all the 2014 stuff is still fully useable outside of DDB AND most of it is still useable in DDB. It's compatible with the 2024 update.
Toolset content is explicitly part of what was purchased during the sale. That is now being removed. It is an outright lie to say that "The 2014 stuff isn't going away".
No, it's an outright lie to say it is going away. Even using your definition, only part of it is going away, which is exactly what I said. You have no standing to call me a liar.
If you prefer, saying "The 2014 stuff isn't going away" is a totally misleading statement to imply that you can continue using the 2014 rules, to the point that anyone reading it would feel lied to.
In actuality most of the "2014" stuff is being removed or rendered unusable, and it will be impossible to play under 2014 rules.
Again, that's completely inaccurate.
If I make a new character on 9/3, I'll be able to pick a 2014 class or a 2024 class, so classes didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 subclass or 2024 subclass so subclasses didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick 2014 feats or 2024 feats so feats didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 species or a 2024 species so those didn't go anywhere either. All that content that was purchased is COMPLETELY accessible.
Furthermore, if I bought adventures, they're still accessible, the monsters from those adventures are still accessible, the player options from those adventures are still accessible.
The ONLY things that are not accessible according to the changelog are a subset of things that are being updated to the 2024 versions, namely spell descriptions and rule definitions.
So tell me again how I'm a liar when I say that you have access to nearly everything you purchased during the sale.
True, you'll be able to choose the 2014 options, and even use 2014 spells if you homebrewed them before 9/3 when the changes are being instituted, but there are features IN THAT MATERIAL that will be affected by the addition of the 2024 material that CAN'T be homebrewed. Rule changes, such as Hide and Sneak Attack, just to use those as examples, will now appear on the character sheets with the 2024 text. Some of the subclasses will also be adversely affected, making them essentially unusable as 2014 subclasses on the character sheets. By doing so it alters the character sheets from a purely 2014 content character to an amalgamation of 2014/2024-something many working with 2014 do not want. Trying to use a 2014-based Warlock character sheet will become impossible since there is no way to use the 2014 invocations anymore. They will only have the 2024 invocations, and those can't be homebrewed.
True, you may be looking at it from the perspective of using a 2014 class/subclass/species/etc. in a 2024 campaign, but the majority of folks responding to your comments have been pointing out how this will affect their 2014 campaigns, both those ongoing and any planned for the future. What you are saying may be true from your point of view, but it certainly isn't from theirs. The character sheets that have already been made will be altered in such a way that they don't necessarily apply to the 2014 ruleset, and will cause confusion for those trying to use them for their 2014 campaigns.
I think people need to consider that thousands of people in this community have paid a lot of money to play 2014 characters under the 2014 rules and pulling that rug from undernearth them after assuring them it wouldn't bloody happen is valid reason to be extremely upset with these changes and trying to argue with them otherwise isn't helping and could be antagonistic. Especially considering the huge amount of money people have sunk into this site to play 2014 games and characters.
The embargo on the PHB was only recently lifted as well. People have only just started to dive into the differences in all the spells and how the new rules affect them. So there has been very little time to adjust, and given that the spells are going to change overnight **in the primary tool ddb users use ** upon the PHB's release, WotC has imposed disarray upon weeks' worth of games as people fumble around -- particularly the casual players who don't follow d&d news -- in addition to making the char sheet much less useful for the 2014 crowd.
This is literally Y2K all over again. This is hilarious 😂
If you understood what the Y2k problem was, you'd realize that it actually was a problem that is only hilarious in hindsight because people did a ton of work to fix it before it happened.
I think people need to consider that thousands of people in this community have paid a lot of money to play 2014 characters under the 2014 rules and pulling that rug from undernearth them after assuring them it wouldn't bloody happen is valid reason to be extremely upset with these changes and trying to argue with them otherwise isn't helping and could be antagonistic. Especially considering the huge amount of money people have sunk into this site to play 2014 games and characters.
The embargo on the PHB was only recently lifted as well. People have only just started to dive into the differences in all the spells and how the new rules affect them. So there has been very little time to adjust, and given that the spells are going to change overnight **in the primary tool ddb users use ** upon the PHB's release, WotC has imposed disarray upon weeks' worth of games as people fumble around -- particularly the casual players who don't follow d&d news -- in addition to making the char sheet much less useful for the 2014 crowd.
One of the folks in my local group counted up the number of spells changed in some way, shape, or form, and came up with 191 spells that are being altered in the 2024 PHB. As far as I know, we still don't know the fate of the spells that didn't make it into the 2024 PHB. Are they being wiped from the database, or remaining as Spells that 2014 characters already made can still use? I know Booming Blade and Green-Fire Blade are not in the 2024 spell list, or at least I haven't seen them mentioned.
Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is usually the best one. Sagan Standard: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Yes the first time or two, but going on 3 years with 3-5 screwups a year is something entirely different, systemic I think is the term used in cases like this. They can fix it, or they can suffer the loss of mnarket share and revenue!
One more Ugly thing Beyond did is - Big sale not so long ago. Imagine Doing a sale on 5e content and then after a bit telling all the people who bought the books on sale that your books are WORTHLESS! We got you! Ha Ha! You thought you were buying stuff for cheap and will be able to use! Well guess what! You`re not! Ha! Now so long sucker! Your money is now ours!
This is inaccurate. The 2014 stuff isn't going away. Some character sheet functionality is being updated to 2024 but all the 2014 stuff is still fully useable outside of DDB AND most of it is still useable in DDB. It's compatible with the 2024 update.
Toolset content is explicitly part of what was purchased during the sale. That is now being removed. It is an outright lie to say that "The 2014 stuff isn't going away".
No, it's an outright lie to say it is going away. Even using your definition, only part of it is going away, which is exactly what I said. You have no standing to call me a liar.
If you prefer, saying "The 2014 stuff isn't going away" is a totally misleading statement to imply that you can continue using the 2014 rules, to the point that anyone reading it would feel lied to.
In actuality most of the "2014" stuff is being removed or rendered unusable, and it will be impossible to play under 2014 rules.
Again, that's completely inaccurate.
If I make a new character on 9/3, I'll be able to pick a 2014 class or a 2024 class, so classes didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 subclass or 2024 subclass so subclasses didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick 2014 feats or 2024 feats so feats didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 species or a 2024 species so those didn't go anywhere either. All that content that was purchased is COMPLETELY accessible.
Furthermore, if I bought adventures, they're still accessible, the monsters from those adventures are still accessible, the player options from those adventures are still accessible.
The ONLY things that are not accessible according to the changelog are a subset of things that are being updated to the 2024 versions, namely spell descriptions and rule definitions.
So tell me again how I'm a liar when I say that you have access to nearly everything you purchased during the sale.
True, you'll be able to choose the 2014 options, and even use 2014 spells if you homebrewed them before 9/3 when the changes are being instituted, but there are features IN THAT MATERIAL that will be affected by the addition of the 2024 material that CAN'T be homebrewed. Rule changes, such as Hide and Sneak Attack, just to use those as examples, will now appear on the character sheets with the 2024 text. Some of the subclasses will also be adversely affected, making them essentially unusable as 2014 subclasses on the character sheets. By doing so it alters the character sheets from a purely 2014 content character to an amalgamation of 2014/2024-something many working with 2014 do not want. Trying to use a 2014-based Warlock character sheet will become impossible since there is no way to use the 2014 invocations anymore. They will only have the 2024 invocations, and those can't be homebrewed.
A half-truth may not be lying, but it isn't totally correct either.
Where have we seen that Sneak Attack and the Invocations themselves won't be usable in their current state? Both are class features of 2014 and shouldn't be going anywhere. The Invocation issue has always been specifically that any spells they grant will point to the 2024 versions of the spells.
Similarly, Battle Master Fighter should be fine.
The point about invocations is that we can't use the 2014 versions with the 2014 spells. If you want to run a game under 2014 rules you cannot use any invocations that grant spells. It's the same with things like the expanded spell lists from TGE, I don't know if they'd count as part of the class or a seperate optional rule, but either way there is no way to homebrew them to point at the 2014 rules.
I'm not aware of issues with sneak attack, as that should come from the legacy rogue class rules, but it's possible another problems been discovered since I last looked. It's things like the hide rule (that they also mentioned) where there is no way to have the 2014 rules referenced on the character sheet.
My point was that it appears there were some misconceptions in their understanding of the changes. Yes, the spells are altered as I pointed out, but the text of the invocations (and anything not tied to spells) will be unaffected.
Obviously, no contest on the spells and rule tooltips.
I agree that accuracy is important, it isonly (afaik) invocations that grant spells that are affected, but I also think it's important to note that those spell-granting invocations are no longer usable under 2014 rules, whether the text is correct or not.
Of course if you're playing a 2024 or mixed 2014/2024 game then the legacy invocations will work fine, albeit with the new spells.
I think people need to consider that thousands of people in this community have paid a lot of money to play 2014 characters under the 2014 rules and pulling that rug from undernearth them after assuring them it wouldn't bloody happen is valid reason to be extremely upset with these changes and trying to argue with them otherwise isn't helping and could be antagonistic. Especially considering the huge amount of money people have sunk into this site to play 2014 games and characters.
The embargo on the PHB was only recently lifted as well. People have only just started to dive into the differences in all the spells and how the new rules affect them. So there has been very little time to adjust, and given that the spells are going to change overnight **in the primary tool ddb users use ** upon the PHB's release, WotC has imposed disarray upon weeks' worth of games as people fumble around -- particularly the casual players who don't follow d&d news -- in addition to making the char sheet much less useful for the 2014 crowd.
One of the folks in my local group counted up the number of spells changed in some way, shape, or form, and came up with 191 spells that are being altered in the 2024 PHB. As far as I know, we still don't know the fate of the spells that didn't make it into the 2024 PHB. Are they being wiped from the database, or remaining as Spells that 2014 characters already made can still use? I know Booming Blade and Green-Fire Blade are not in the 2024 spell list, or at least I haven't seen them mentioned.
Just wait and see what the new DMG and MM do to the original ruleset, we can only assume it will be as bad or worse to force the sale of the new rule set, how much can they know these new books suck to try this crap, talk about no faith in your product LMAO. I hope share holders are reading these threads, I know the ones that will make money on this are!
Yes, it's technically in the TOS that they can do this. That's not helpful, either. In this digital age, we're stuck with lots of products that we don't technically "own", but that doesn't mean we don't expect the provider we "bought" it from to give us access to it. Steam can probably legally nuke my video game library, but you bet your ass that if they do, I'll be raging.
I'm not sure such ToS would stand up to legal scrutiny, but I'm no lawyer. At the very least, it doesn't pass the sniff test. If a company sells you a digital product and states that you will have access to it in a digital toolset (which is what WotC has done), and then revokes that access without compensation, that *should* be against the law. Were I a judge, I'd ask the question, "What about the person who purchased such goods the day before the platform revoked access to them? Is there no breach of contract there? Could that in any way be considered a fair exchange?" No, no it couldn't, particularly when you specifically and explicitly pay to be able to use that content in a particular tool (e.g. the character sheet).
Now if WotC provided access to digital content via a **subscription** model, that would be a different story. You'd be paying for access to whatever content WotC wanted you to have access to for a time-limited duration. They could switch things up at the end of every subscription period.
But in a model where consumers make one-time purchases, even if it is licensed content (as this is), there ought to be some sort of legal recourse if access is revoked before a "reasonable" amount of time has passed. I mean, it's not fair or reasonable to make a company provide access to purchased digital goods (or tools) in perpetuity (for all eternity, for the purchaser and their heirs, etc.), but it's also not fair or reasonable to argue (or to have it be legal) that access to a purchased digital good can be revoked one second after it's purchased. There ought to be some sort of law that forces sellers of licensed, digital content to provide access to that content for some "reasonable usable time." That would protect both consumers and businesses (by eventually allowing them to sunset stuff). I guess I see this as a consumer protection thing (1-800-SENATOR-WARREN).
I think people need to consider that thousands of people in this community have paid a lot of money to play 2014 characters under the 2014 rules and pulling that rug from undernearth them after assuring them it wouldn't bloody happen is valid reason to be extremely upset with these changes and trying to argue with them otherwise isn't helping and could be antagonistic. Especially considering the huge amount of money people have sunk into this site to play 2014 games and characters.
The embargo on the PHB was only recently lifted as well. People have only just started to dive into the differences in all the spells and how the new rules affect them. So there has been very little time to adjust, and given that the spells are going to change overnight **in the primary tool ddb users use ** upon the PHB's release, WotC has imposed disarray upon weeks' worth of games as people fumble around -- particularly the casual players who don't follow d&d news -- in addition to making the char sheet much less useful for the 2014 crowd.
One of the folks in my local group counted up the number of spells changed in some way, shape, or form, and came up with 191 spells that are being altered in the 2024 PHB. As far as I know, we still don't know the fate of the spells that didn't make it into the 2024 PHB. Are they being wiped from the database, or remaining as Spells that 2014 characters already made can still use? I know Booming Blade and Green-Fire Blade are not in the 2024 spell list, or at least I haven't seen them mentioned.
As far as we know, any spell that doesn't appear in the new PHB will remain unchanged and available for use.
Is there any way you can get that list of changed spells posted here? DDB haven't provided a list of changes themselves, and the 3rd party lists of seen, which they acknowledge are incomplete, only show around 110.
You might check out this spell list. I believe some of the changed spells are bolded that have the 2024 text included, but not all of the altered spells have the new text listed. I know Find Familiar was changed, but the new text is not listed. Anyway here is the best list of the spells for the 2024 edition that I was able to find: https://www.aidedd.org/spell/
Here is what was posted in our discord.
Nerd Immersions' stats about changed spells:
So it took several hours (I thought I could use a pre-existing list of "all the changed spells" to cut down on time, turns out it was totally wrong), but here's my initial breakdown: Spells in the 2024 PHB: 391 New Spells in the 2024 PHB: 7 Spells that were updated in the 2024 PHB: 191 Updates could be removal of a single phrase like "this spreads around corners", a change of spell school (for example most healing Spells are now Abjuration) or in some instances changes of the cost or type of material component. Or it could be basically a whole new spell, like the revamped Conjure Spells or the new Counterspell. Tonight I'll be sitting down to record THE video covering all of these changes. I'll also be working behind the scenes to ensure I have a homebrew version of all the previous versions of them on D&D Beyond.
So look for their video regarding the changed spells would be my advise.
One more Ugly thing Beyond did is - Big sale not so long ago. Imagine Doing a sale on 5e content and then after a bit telling all the people who bought the books on sale that your books are WORTHLESS! We got you! Ha Ha! You thought you were buying stuff for cheap and will be able to use! Well guess what! You`re not! Ha! Now so long sucker! Your money is now ours!
This is inaccurate. The 2014 stuff isn't going away. Some character sheet functionality is being updated to 2024 but all the 2014 stuff is still fully useable outside of DDB AND most of it is still useable in DDB. It's compatible with the 2024 update.
Great for those that bought physical books, but for those that bought digital solely for the tools set, they are being robbed for the sake of selling new books they don't want! keep making excuses for this predatory company! They deserve to reap what they sow!
1. You are not going to "reasonably explain" away the issue this thread represents. While the exact specifics one person or another is referencing might be inaccurate the fact is that the functionality we want is being removed. The fact a class action lawsuit is unlikely to succeed doesn't mean it's a good business decision.
2. Because you cannot "reasonably explain" away the outrage you should join the movement to reconcile with those unhappy. You might be happy and you might love DNDBeyond or D&D or Hasbro. Great. If you want them to continue to make money and be profitable and succeed you should encourage them to change their course of action.
To everyone trying to downplay peoples unhappiness.
How is it that tiny Pathbuilder was able to do so with the 2e and 2e revised characters? It was just a click of the button. They have both rulesets available and unless DDB's engine is absolute spit and duck tape, it should not be a difficult lift, just a time consuming lift. Databases should be built off of numeric keys, not text keys. Duplicate text should not be a problem. Afterall, there a many Main Streets in the USA but google maps doesn't blow up.
If you have a system that was architected for it and/or the resources to re-architect the system, nearly anything is possible, given enough time. However, based on the implementation choices being made I'm assuming DDB does not currently have either of those things.
The fact that they did a bad job of running their backend previously doesn't excuse what they're doing now. Mayhaps they should have done a better job, that's capable of handling changes better, hmm?
How is it that tiny Pathbuilder was able to do so with the 2e and 2e revised characters? It was just a click of the button. They have both rulesets available and unless DDB's engine is absolute spit and duck tape, it should not be a difficult lift, just a time consuming lift. Databases should be built off of numeric keys, not text keys. Duplicate text should not be a problem. Afterall, there a many Main Streets in the USA but google maps doesn't blow up.
If you have a system that was architected for it and/or the resources to re-architect the system, nearly anything is possible, given enough time. However, based on the implementation choices being made I'm assuming DDB does not currently have either of those things.
The fact that they did a bad job of running their backend previously doesn't excuse what they're doing now. Mayhaps they should have done a better job, that's capable of handling changes better, hmm?
Exactly, if their backend is in such a bad state then they should have put more resources into fixing it (and maybe not fired a load of devs last year). WotC have been planning 2024 for some time and that should have included plans for updating DDB. Either they should have put more dev time into implementing the new rules properly, or they should have announced months ago that they would not be fully supporting 5th edition going forward.
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I just tried the "homebrew solution". I homebrewed "Sleep" to "Sleep (2014)". OK that's fine.
HOWEVER, my Twilight Cleric, which always has "Sleep" prepared (due to the class feature), will forever use the built-in version and never my homebrew version.
This!!! All of the code currently exists on the site for all of the affected spells and magic items. There is absolutely no reason at all that a toggle system can't be implemented in the character builder for 2014 content. I'm playing in a long-standing campaign with multiple new players who are still trying to learn their spells, and forcing them to now learn completely different rules for the spells they've already spent time with may drive them away from the game. Our group is considering switching platforms entirely to mitigate this if we can't play with the 2014 rules we are used to. WOTC shouldn't have promised backwards compatibility if they couldn't keep that promise.
If you understood what the Y2k problem was, you'd realize that it actually was a problem that is only hilarious in hindsight because people did a ton of work to fix it before it happened.
The point about invocations is that we can't use the 2014 versions with the 2014 spells. If you want to run a game under 2014 rules you cannot use any invocations that grant spells. It's the same with things like the expanded spell lists from TGE, I don't know if they'd count as part of the class or a seperate optional rule, but either way there is no way to homebrew them to point at the 2014 rules.
I'm not aware of issues with sneak attack, as that should come from the legacy rogue class rules, but it's possible another problems been discovered since I last looked. It's things like the hide rule (that they also mentioned) where there is no way to have the 2014 rules referenced on the character sheet.
My point was that it appears there were some misconceptions in their understanding of the changes. Yes, the spells are altered as I pointed out, but the text of the invocations (and anything not tied to spells) will be unaffected.
Obviously, no contest on the spells and rule tooltips.
The embargo on the PHB was only recently lifted as well. People have only just started to dive into the differences in all the spells and how the new rules affect them. So there has been very little time to adjust, and given that the spells are going to change overnight **in the primary tool ddb users use ** upon the PHB's release, WotC has imposed disarray upon weeks' worth of games as people fumble around -- particularly the casual players who don't follow d&d news -- in addition to making the char sheet much less useful for the 2014 crowd.
[REDACTED]
PLEASE reconsider. Not everyone is on board with the 2024 changes.
so the exact opposite of what they are doing rn?
One of the folks in my local group counted up the number of spells changed in some way, shape, or form, and came up with 191 spells that are being altered in the 2024 PHB. As far as I know, we still don't know the fate of the spells that didn't make it into the 2024 PHB. Are they being wiped from the database, or remaining as Spells that 2014 characters already made can still use? I know Booming Blade and Green-Fire Blade are not in the 2024 spell list, or at least I haven't seen them mentioned.
Yes the first time or two, but going on 3 years with 3-5 screwups a year is something entirely different, systemic I think is the term used in cases like this. They can fix it, or they can suffer the loss of mnarket share and revenue!
I agree that accuracy is important, it is only (afaik) invocations that grant spells that are affected, but I also think it's important to note that those spell-granting invocations are no longer usable under 2014 rules, whether the text is correct or not.
Of course if you're playing a 2024 or mixed 2014/2024 game then the legacy invocations will work fine, albeit with the new spells.
Just wait and see what the new DMG and MM do to the original ruleset, we can only assume it will be as bad or worse to force the sale of the new rule set, how much can they know these new books suck to try this crap, talk about no faith in your product LMAO. I hope share holders are reading these threads, I know the ones that will make money on this are!
I'm not sure such ToS would stand up to legal scrutiny, but I'm no lawyer. At the very least, it doesn't pass the sniff test. If a company sells you a digital product and states that you will have access to it in a digital toolset (which is what WotC has done), and then revokes that access without compensation, that *should* be against the law. Were I a judge, I'd ask the question, "What about the person who purchased such goods the day before the platform revoked access to them? Is there no breach of contract there? Could that in any way be considered a fair exchange?" No, no it couldn't, particularly when you specifically and explicitly pay to be able to use that content in a particular tool (e.g. the character sheet).
Now if WotC provided access to digital content via a **subscription** model, that would be a different story. You'd be paying for access to whatever content WotC wanted you to have access to for a time-limited duration. They could switch things up at the end of every subscription period.
But in a model where consumers make one-time purchases, even if it is licensed content (as this is), there ought to be some sort of legal recourse if access is revoked before a "reasonable" amount of time has passed. I mean, it's not fair or reasonable to make a company provide access to purchased digital goods (or tools) in perpetuity (for all eternity, for the purchaser and their heirs, etc.), but it's also not fair or reasonable to argue (or to have it be legal) that access to a purchased digital good can be revoked one second after it's purchased. There ought to be some sort of law that forces sellers of licensed, digital content to provide access to that content for some "reasonable usable time." That would protect both consumers and businesses (by eventually allowing them to sunset stuff). I guess I see this as a consumer protection thing (1-800-SENATOR-WARREN).
As far as we know, any spell that doesn't appear in the new PHB will remain unchanged and available for use.
Is there any way you can get that list of changed spells posted here? DDB haven't provided a list of changes themselves, and the 3rd party lists of seen, which they acknowledge are incomplete, only show around 110.
You might check out this spell list. I believe some of the changed spells are bolded that have the 2024 text included, but not all of the altered spells have the new text listed. I know Find Familiar was changed, but the new text is not listed. Anyway here is the best list of the spells for the 2024 edition that I was able to find: https://www.aidedd.org/spell/
Here is what was posted in our discord.
Nerd Immersions' stats about changed spells:
Great for those that bought physical books, but for those that bought digital solely for the tools set, they are being robbed for the sake of selling new books they don't want! keep making excuses for this predatory company! They deserve to reap what they sow!
So some easy logic here.
1. You are not going to "reasonably explain" away the issue this thread represents. While the exact specifics one person or another is referencing might be inaccurate the fact is that the functionality we want is being removed. The fact a class action lawsuit is unlikely to succeed doesn't mean it's a good business decision.
2. Because you cannot "reasonably explain" away the outrage you should join the movement to reconcile with those unhappy. You might be happy and you might love DNDBeyond or D&D or Hasbro. Great. If you want them to continue to make money and be profitable and succeed you should encourage them to change their course of action.
To everyone trying to downplay peoples unhappiness.
The fact that they did a bad job of running their backend previously doesn't excuse what they're doing now. Mayhaps they should have done a better job, that's capable of handling changes better, hmm?
Exactly, if their backend is in such a bad state then they should have put more resources into fixing it (and maybe not fired a load of devs last year). WotC have been planning 2024 for some time and that should have included plans for updating DDB. Either they should have put more dev time into implementing the new rules properly, or they should have announced months ago that they would not be fully supporting 5th edition going forward.