[[ I need to know if you want to use hero points or not now (you can use more than 1)]]

[[ Just to collect relevant questions for this decision, in case my prolific responses are getting you down:

- Is an attempt at a grapple next round is not an option? My thinking was it would be a grapple attempt (strength roll, boo), and Rawl would be at disadvantage (or ato-fail) on his dex save, at least...or is that naieve?

- Also, why would DC go up? The first attempt was a free action at the end of a round; the next round he would be using movement (levitate down into the water to reach Rawl - paddling before if necessary, and under the surface if necessary ), so his whole move and action are dedicated to grabbing Rawl.

- What would be the ballpark for XP from this set of encounters? Am I correct in assuming it's a small fraction of what's needed to get to the next level? Or is this a more productive XP exercise than the last?

]]

Grab and grapple are the same thing in this case as Rawl is not resisting. The DC would go up because Rawl will sink in his turn making it harder for him to be found and grabbed.]

Isn't Brand still in the water near Rawl?

Am I correct in saying that from your perspective, the difficulty is not grabbing per se, but finding him in the water?

We probably need a reality check at this point. I'm thinking of Brand as partially in water, with Rawl maybe 5' below. I'm also thinking Brand can see him *fairly* easily because of Darkvision (but I'm assuming the water is clear, and it may be murky).

It would be great to know where we differ.

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

NB: The original definition for hero points when going up a level was worded incorrectly; points aren't gained, they are set to the new level.

Am I correct in assuming that they are not lost if, by some miracle, one had 5 points and got to level 4?  I would not gain 4, but I would not be reduced to 4 either.

[[ Another question that may affect choices: what would be the ballpark for XP from this set of encounters? ]]

[[Extra points would be lost. They are supposed to be used, not hoarded. By setting them to the level it keeps some sort of control over them.]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ I need to know if you want to use hero points or not now (you can use more than 1)]]

[[ Just to collect relevant questions for this decision, in case my prolific responses are getting you down:

- Is an attempt at a grapple next round is not an option? My thinking was it would be a grapple attempt (strength roll, boo), and Rawl would be at disadvantage (or ato-fail) on his dex save, at least...or is that naieve?

[[The grab/grapple is certainly an option, but I've been thinking about this and because Brand is now in the water and going with the flow (as it were) it is more likely to be a Dexterity (Athletics) check because he is having to use his arms or legs to find Rawl under the water without the aid of his sight.]]

- Also, why would DC go up? The first attempt was a free action at the end of a round; the next round he would be using movement (levitate down into the water to reach Rawl - paddling before if necessary, and under the surface if necessary ), so his whole move and action are dedicated to grabbing Rawl.

[[The DC would go up by some amount because of Rawl sinking deeper into the water (i.e., if Rawl were 8' down then it would be much harder to find and grab him than if he were 1' down), and Rawl will go down because of his armour.]]

- What would be the ballpark for XP from this set of encounters? Am I correct in assuming it's a small fraction of what's needed to get to the next level? Or is this a more productive XP exercise than the last?

[[You won't be anywhere near going up a level.]]

]]

[[ Damn I really should think before I post; I edited my questions in response to some of your comments after I posted them. Can you look at the additions as well? Sorry.

And I've done it again:

without the aid of his sight

Why is that? (and again, I edit: now I think about it, is the water impenetrably muddy? It's a delta. )

Dexterity (Athletics)

Any chance the first roll was Dex/Acrobatics? If that's what you meant? If so, hero-points, here we come...because that would have been 6/8 ]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ I need to know if you want to use hero points or not now (you can use more than 1)]]

[[ Just to collect relevant questions for this decision, in case my prolific responses are getting you down:

- Is an attempt at a grapple next round is not an option? My thinking was it would be a grapple attempt (strength roll, boo), and Rawl would be at disadvantage (or ato-fail) on his dex save, at least...or is that naieve?

- Also, why would DC go up? The first attempt was a free action at the end of a round; the next round he would be using movement (levitate down into the water to reach Rawl - paddling before if necessary, and under the surface if necessary ), so his whole move and action are dedicated to grabbing Rawl.

- What would be the ballpark for XP from this set of encounters? Am I correct in assuming it's a small fraction of what's needed to get to the next level? Or is this a more productive XP exercise than the last?

]]

Grab and grapple are the same thing in this case as Rawl is not resisting. The DC would go up because Rawl will sink in his turn making it harder for him to be found and grabbed.]

 

Isn't Brand still in the water near Rawl?

[[Brand is in the water on the surface.]]

Am I correct in saying that from your perspective, the difficulty is not grabbing per se, but finding him in the water?

[[Both apply. Rawl is a big man and the water is dirty and so only the bubbles of where he's gone down can be seen. This is why I mentioned Dexterity (Athletics) previously (i.e., +2 bonus rather than a +1 bonus). Brand will need to both find him and bring him to the surface, but this is more dependent on Dex than Str, in this circumstance.]]

We probably need a reality check at this point. I'm thinking of Brand as partially in water, with Rawl maybe 5' below. I'm also thinking Brand can see him *fairly* easily because of Darkvision (but I'm assuming the water is clear, and it may be murky).

It would be great to know where we differ.

[[As above, Brand cannot see Rawl. He will have to find him by feel, unless you decide to use hero points to modify the previous roll where Brand tried to grab Rawl before he sank too deep into the water.]]

[[Sorry Phil. But I'm going to have to call it quits for the night. I'm tired and have an early start tomorrow. Ciao.]]

[[ Sorry Phil. But I'm going to have to call it quits for the night. I'm tired and have an early start tomorrow. Ciao ]]

[[ No worries ]]

[[ As above, Brand cannot see Rawl. ]]

[[ If I'd actually engaged my brain earlier and realized the water was murky, I'd have just gone with hero points. ]]

[[ In for a penny... ]]

Expend 2 hero points:  4

Hopefully that's a suitably heroic result! Madame D and Koric better be watching.

This now means I return to my earlier questions:

Also, practical questions...if he grabs Rawl with his free hand -- say by the belt, or some other semi-reliable point -- is he going to be strong enough to levitate him free of the water, or will he need to let the water provide some buoyancy?

Also, can he use his left arm/hand (with the levitate stone) to hold Rawl (eg. if Rawl remained partially in the water, and Brand's left arm was hooked under an armpit, or Brand's hand held his hair/helmet/collar?) or will he have to continue using the right hand to hold Rawl? The objective is to avoid Rawl taking drowning damage and free Brand's right hand...

[[ Assuming Brand manages to grab him, when he has him moderately secure; if he is able to hold Rawl and use two stones, he will go invisible and look around for Tinkerbell: ]]

Brand sighs, and then [[ if not invisible: ]] speaks to thin air, "If you are still there Madame D, " [[ else ]] addresses her, "Glad to see you are still here, " [[endif]] , "please let my father know I have something for Bacchi. I can't guarantee his condition though, but I'll try to get him to shore ... as discreetly as I can. Or perhaps he could send a boat?" [[ if he can see her, he adds "Move up and down if a boat will come for me" ]]

[[ How far are they by boat? I might just skip the boat option if it's a long way. House to Cistern was 5 minutes by boat, but I have no idea where we are in relation to that. ]]

[[Backing up to here, and expending two hero points to make the Strength (Athletics) check, which makes it a success.]]

Brand's dagger finds it mark in the gap between Rawl's neck and his armour. The man shudders and then stop struggling and sinks beneath the water.

Realising that his quarry might be escaping him in death, Brand uses his Stone of Uplifting to lower himself quickly to the surface of the water and plunges his arm into the water to grab at Rawl. The river water surges around Brand, but he manages to get a grip and pulls the unmoving body of the man up so that his head is now above the water so at least now he won't drown.

[[Rawl's next move has been had (i.e., he has made a Death saving throw) and it is now Brand's move.]]

[[ Then back to the questions above, in my last comment.

And maybe add: what has he currently grabbed Rawl by ?]]

[[ If you want me to summarise outstanding questions, I can do that. ]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ If you want me to summarise outstanding questions, I can do that. ]]

[[Yes. Please. I have a large manuscript I am working on at the moment, so that would be good.]]

[[ No worries. I should probably start an "Encounter Questions" post for each encounter, given my propensity for editing and posting multiple times. ]]

 Rawl Encounter Questions

[Questions in BLUE are unanswered.

1. Brand heroically, and despite seeming failure, managed to pull Rawl free of the water. What has he grabbed? I'm hoping he has a solid grip on something like his belt.

2. What is the current situation? Brand half submerged, holding Rawl by belt?

3. Now that he has grabbed Rawl with his free hand -- is he going to be strong enough to levitate him free of the water, or will he need to let the water provide some buoyancy?

4. Can he use his left arm/hand (with the levitate stone) to hold Rawl (eg. if Rawl remained partially in the water, and Brand's left arm was hooked under an armpit, or Brand's hand held his hair/helmet/collar, or wrapped his arm around his neck as per life=savers) or will he have to continue using the right hand to hold Rawl? The objective is to avoid Rawl taking drowning damage and free Brand's right hand.

5. How far are they from the Brand residence by boat? I know the cistern was 5 minutes. I have not clear picture of where they are.

6. Is the water flow leading them toward of away from the residence? Since the temple district is downstream, I assume towards.

 7. Can he also engage in some form of movement in his turn? Paddling? Kicking against the water to get to shore? My maths suggest the stone will be VERY slow in water, unless Rawl is on the surface and Brand is in the air.

8. Which shore is the familty residence on - near or far, if far, how far?

9. Can Brand now leave the water and keep supporting Rawl, eg. by hooking Rawls arm in Brand's bandolier (previously specified to hold the weight of two people due to reinforcement)?

10. Do the rules allow for incapacitating someone?

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ No worries. I should probably start an "Encounter Questions" post for each encounter, given my propensity for editing and posting multiple times. ]]

---

 Rawl Encounter Questions

[Questions in BLUE are unanswered.

1. Brand heroically, and despite seeming failure, managed to pull Rawl free of the water. What has he grabbed? I'm hoping he has a solid grip on something like his belt.

[[At the moment, Brand has his arm crooked under Rawl's armpit so he can keep the man's head above water.]]

2. What is the current situation? Brand half submerged, holding Rawl by belt?

[[Half submerged and holding Rawl as specified above. If Brand had him by the belt, Rawl's head would still be in water because the man is limp and unresponsive.]]

3. Now that he has grabbed Rawl with his free hand -- is he going to be strong enough to levitate him free of the water, or will he need to let the water provide some buoyancy?

[[Brand can't know the former part of the question without trying, however, even though Rawl is heavily built, Brand should be able to lift him for a short period of time even in his water-logged armour. Also, both Rawl and Brand probably won't be very buoyant because of the armour they are wearing. That is why Rawl kept going under. Brand is also being supported by the Stone of Uplifting at this time.]]

4. Can he use his left arm/hand (with the levitate stone) to hold Rawl (eg. if Rawl remained partially in the water, and Brand's left arm was hooked under an armpit, or Brand's hand held his hair/helmet/collar, or wrapped his arm around his neck as per life=savers) or will he have to continue using the right hand to hold Rawl? The objective is to avoid Rawl taking drowning damage and free Brand's right hand.

[[Yes.]]

5. How far are they from the Brand residence by boat? I know the cistern was 5 minutes. I have not clear picture of where they are.

[[If they were to stay in the water and let the current take them downriver, it would probably take about ten minutes before Brand would be able to see the Brand residence, presuming he could recognise it in the dark.]]

6. Is the water flow leading them toward of away from the residence? Since the temple district is downstream, I assume towards.

 [[Correct. Also, the Brand residence is between their current location and the Palace Bridge, which I described earlier (i.e., it is about a fifth of a mile or 1,000 feet to the residence).]]

If Brand had him by the belt, Rawl's head would still be in water because the man is limp and unresponsive

OK. I was wondering if he could have grabbed the belt, then have Rawl on his back in the water. Is that a possibility now?

Also, both Rawl and Brand probably won't be very buoyant because of the armour they are wearing.

Glad he's so vigilant with the waxing, then!

The objective is to avoid Rawl taking drowning damage and free Brand's right hand.

[[Yes.]]

Can he also engage in some form of movement in his turn? Paddling? Kicking against the water to get to shore? My maths suggest the stone will be VERY slow in water, unless Rawl is on the surface and Brand is in the air.

The speed he can possibly achieve will be important to whether he tries for the shor in the longer tern, or just heads down river.

Which shore is the familty residence on, near or far, if far, how far?

One aspect of one question outstanding: how far by boat (minutes) is it from residence to his location?

Can Brand now leave the water and keep supporting Rawl, eg. by hooking Rawls arm in Brand's bandolier (previously specified to hold the weight of two people due to reinforcement)?

Brand allows himself a sigh of relief and shifts Rawl to his left arm, then places his hand back in his pocket at activates the Invisibility stone, and  looks for Tinkerbell.

[[ If he sees her, he says: ]]

"I can not guarantee this one's health; I may need to take him to shore...but Bacchi is owed what he is owed if Rima is dead. Is there a boat on the way, by any chance?" he asks. "Move up and down for yes."

[[ the direction he moves this turn will depend on answers to the questions - up, near or far shore, or downriver are all options ]]

[[ Outstanding Rawl Encounter Questions ]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

If Brand had him by the belt, Rawl's head would still be in water because the man is limp and unresponsive

OK. I was wondering if he could have grabbed the belt, then have Rawl on his back in the water. Is that a possibility now?

[[Yes, He could shift his grip.]]

Also, both Rawl and Brand probably won't be very buoyant because of the armour they are wearing.

Glad he's so vigilant with the waxing, then!

The objective is to avoid Rawl taking drowning damage and free Brand's right hand.

[[Yes.]]

Can he also engage in some form of movement in his turn? Paddling? Kicking against the water to get to shore? My maths suggest the stone will be VERY slow in water, unless Rawl is on the surface and Brand is in the air.

[[Characters without a special swimming movement speed, move at half their normal movement while swimming (i.e., 15'). Carrying Rawl will reduce that to 10'. Characters can also Dash as their action (Rawl wasn't doing this because he was injured and having to make Athletics checks every round). As a rogue, Brand can also use his bonus action to Dash as well. Which means he could move 30' in a turn. But I will need him to make a Strength (Athletics) check against a DC of 5 each turn to see if he has any problems.]]

The speed he can possibly achieve will be important to whether he tries for the shor in the longer tern, or just heads down river.

Which shore is the familty residence on, near or far, if far, how far?

[[The family residence is on the near shore, as I said last turn it is about 1,000 ft downriver.]]

One aspect of one question outstanding: how far by boat (minutes) is it from residence to his location?

[[Too hard to answer. The boat would be being rowed upriver against the current and so it would depend on who was rowing, etc.]]

 

Can Brand now leave the water and keep supporting Rawl, eg. by hooking Rawls arm in Brand's bandolier (previously specified to hold the weight of two people due to reinforcement)?

[[Yes, but it would be very awkward to do so because Rawl's arm would need to be held in place and various other body parts would get in the road.]]

---

Brand allows himself a sigh of relief and shifts Rawl to his left arm, then places his hand back in his pocket at activates the Invisibility stone, and  looks for Tinkerbell.

[[ If he sees her, he says: ]]

"I can not guarantee this one's health; I may need to take him to shore...but Bacchi is owed what he is owed if Rima is dead. Is there a boat on the way, by any chance?" he asks. "Move up and down for yes."

[[Tinkerbell is there, and after a moment it does bob up and down.]]

[[ the direction he moves this turn will depend on answers to the questions - up, near or far shore, or downriver are all options ]]

---

[[ Outstanding Rawl Encounter Questions ]]

[[ Sorry, one more:

10. Do the rules allow for incapacitating someone?]]

Whatever the case, I think Brand would move toward the near shore; IIRC, they were 80' out and probably moved 20' downriver at the start of this turn.

Once he has delivered his message to Madam D, Brand will become visible again to free up his hand, then make for the shore.

If he succeeds, he will be 60' from shore (activating stone took his action). This should allow for some sense of what's on the shore...hoping for no people! If he sees people with torches and lanterns when he gets to 60', he might turn around.

Athletics: 6 (Edit: ugh, but phew!)

[[ Shared reality check: the image I have for this is probably as you suggested: Brand's arm hooked through Rawl's armpit, Brand behind, providing buoyancy to both, and using his free hand to try to propel them. Is that about right? ]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ Sorry, one more:

10. Do the rules allow for incapacitating someone?]]

[[An unconscious creature is automatically incapacitated. Also, if an unconscious creature succeeds in making their 3 successful Death saves they become Stable, or they are stabilised by any other means, then they remain unconscious and stay on 0 hit points for 1d4 hours at which point they wake with 1 hit point. Other than that, incapacitation is generally an aspect of some sort of attack, which might defeat the purpose because damaging an unconscious creature forces them back into Death saving throws with an automatic fail. More on this in a forum discussion here.]]

[[ I did also add a move after I asked the question, you may not have seen it.

In terms of my question, my thinking is:

- if I wake Rawl with Stink of Life, I don't want him struggling and attacking Brand.
- I can take him to shore, gag him and tie him up, but that would be more or less pointless (I think) because we get to shore on round 3 or 4, and getting rope and sacking will take a round, and tying him up will take a round, by which time his fate is set (max 5 rounds before the dice rule over life & death).
- what I'd like is to wake him in the water, with Stink of Life (left hand), but club him on the head in the same round...or similar. Or do this on shore, but I *really* don't want him making a noise.

Hence the question about incapacitating him.

Which leads to another question: how many HP does Stink of Life restore? ]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ Sorry, one more:

10. Do the rules allow for incapacitating someone?]]

---

Whatever the case, I think Brand would move toward the near shore; IIRC, they were 80' out and probably moved 20' downriver at the start of this turn.

Once he has delivered his message to Madam D, Brand will become visible again to free up his hand, then make for the shore.

If he succeeds, he will be 60' from shore (activating stone took his action). This should allow for some sense of what's on the shore...hoping for no people! If he sees people with torches and lanterns when he gets to 60', he might turn around.

Athletics: 5 (Edit: ugh, but phew!)

[[ Shared reality check: the image I have for this is probably as you suggested: Brand's arm hooked through Rawl's armpit, Brand behind, providing buoyancy to both, and using his free hand to try to propel them. Is that about right? ]]

Brand is now closer to the shore with the unconscious Rawl, who is still limp in his arms. In the light from the streetlight he can see the guards from the guard post still collecting the fallen loot to the left on the road that runs parallel to the river. Directly in front of him, also on the road, he sees a running man carrying a glowing rod (i.e., a messenger). To the right, the road is clear.

[[Rawl has made his Death save check and it is now Brand's turn again.]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ I did also add a move after I asked the question, you may not have seen it.

In terms of my question, my thinking is:

- if I wake Rawl with Stink of Life, I don't want him struggling and attacking Brand.
- I can take him to shore, gag him and tie him up, but that would be more or less pointless (I think) because we get to shore on round 3 or 4, and getting rope and sacking will take a round, and tying him up will take a round, by which time his fate is set (max 5 rounds before the dice rule over life & death).
- what I'd like is to wake him in the water, with Stink of Life (left hand), but club him on the head in the same round...or similar. Or do this on shore, but I *really* don't want him making a noise.

Hence the question about incapacitating him.

Which leads to another question: how many HP does Stink of Life restore? ]]

[[I have updated the entry for Stink of Life on the world site to include the game mechanics. Hopefully that will answer your question about that. With regard to incapacitation, not sure there is anything that Brand can do in the water at this time accept maybe intimidating Rawl into complying.

N.B: Anyone can attempt to stabilise an unconscious character by making a Medicine (Wisdom) check, a Medicine check might also tell you how Rawl is doing. However doing so in these circumstances would definitely be at Disadvantage and the DC would be unknown.]]

[[I have updated the entry for Stink of Life on the world site to include the game mechanics. Hopefully that will answer your question about that. With regard to incapacitation, not sure there is anything that Brand can do in the water at this time accept maybe intimidating Rawl into complying.]]

[[ Just a small comment: Recovering 1dN-1 can result i recovering 0; does this mean "no effect"? Is it worth just using one die to recover half a die? Or perhaps 1dN-1, min 1? If it's non-magical, recovering almost a full hit die may be generous, especially since it already allows the cheating of death. ]]

[[ Can you describe the shore line? Is it shrubby, walled, have any trees etc? I imagine there must be something to protect from the inevitable tides. Is it high-tide, low-tide or other now? How far from waters edge to road/path? ]]

Brand will continue toward the shore, trying for the darkest spot he can reach; if there is a section with wider 'beach' he will go there. eg. drainage culverts etc.

Athletics: 11