To play Devil's Advocate, an Echo Knight fighter can teleport 60(+movement bonuses + speed) and dish out all of their attacks.
Echo Knight can only do that once every other turn though, and while they're doing that they aren't using their Echo for anything else.
Ghostwater lets you move 70 per turn, every turn, with no drawbacks except 1 less attack the turn you move. Multiclass into Rogue and you can use that for free sneak attacks. Heck, you could multiclass into Echo Knight fighter for more movement.
I just put together a Renegade Pistol user level 8, with max dex and being an elf my pistol attack is currently showing as +16 to hit, and I currently can't find out how this is calculating. Unless im missing something it shouldnt be more then 11 max. Is this a glitch with the system or am I being dumb because its getting late.
That being said as a League lore fan, I love that this came to be! I hope more League content makes its way to the site, and another partnership that would be amazing would be something like Final Fantasy, or DC comics. Possibilities as a fan are endless just like DnD should be, so keep it up!
Alright. I had a cup of tea and decided to come back to it after taking a step away. Its really not any better on second look.
-snip-
Found this here and really think there should be some edits on the information in order to best balance out the subclasses. The review provided above provides some much needed nerfs that should be adressed and even wording problems I was quite surprised to see.
I wholeheartedly support this, what's the point of having UA if untested material can be shot off just the same? Considering how there was already a correction on the Ghostwater Dive, I'd strongly recommend further patches to best assure these subclasses can shine without outshining others or simply being shot down by DMs due to mechanical problems. Specially problems born from wording, one of the most easily fixed problems around.
Personally I really like the idea and the potential of partnered content such as this in the future, as we have already seen with MTG.
Heck the Path of the Depths is really making me inclined to play a Barbarian and a friend of mine has been wanting a Card-themed subclass for ages now.
But as mentioned above, this needs to be tested and adapted to avoid mistakes that can shut down the whole flavor just because the mechanics harm the game.
Just wanna say I just found this thread and seeing my own post really confused me - posting in a thread with no recollection of doing so would be a new one for me. Obviously I've already stated my case regarding balance.
I'm not fundamentally opposed to 'partnered content' on D&D Beyond. But this is the wrong way to do it. Matt Mercer's content is often accepted as 'almost official' because he's a known, respected figure in the community that brought a lot of people to the hobby. His material has been pretty extensively playtested, and while not perfect, has never really been gamebreaking. The quality of his homebrew is reinforced by the fact that he has an official sourcebook out now that has been generally well-received.
Runeterra content is not that. Its a poorly written, seemingly unreviewed mess. I could name a half-dozen community homebrewers that would have done a better job with the material than what we got. Heck, I could probably do a better job, and that's a pretty low bar to clear. Its almost insulting - we can't add well-tuned homebrew classes (like the Pugilist) yet but we're given this jumble of words and expected to like it? Reminder - we still have (seemingly daily) threads from people who don't understand why they have to buy books 'twice' for this platform, failing to understand that Fandom and D&D Beyond are not run by WotC. You expect everyone to understand that Runeterra is essentially glorified homebrew?
DanDwiki was a punchline for some jokes for a while because it would have things broken things like the 'Lightning Mage' and 'Demigod' alongside official SRD content. This platform should be better curated than that.
This is especially grating with the obnoxious advertisements for Idle Champions of the Forgotten Realms and digital dice microtransactions.
Hey for Renegade if you just start at level 5 you can get both Crosshair and double barrel which you wouldn't be able to do starting from 1 to 5. This is a bug I am assuming.
Also the nature of Renegades gun. Should archery and Sharpshooter work with it? Is it considered a weapon for purposes of magic upgrades, can the artificer who has firearm proficiency use? Does it have weight? If someone steals it what does it become in the inventory?
I would say the pistol blade upgrade attack should just the same like double barrel, a part of the action instead of a bonus attack. Making the blade part a bonus attack makes the sniper the obvious best option.
Just wanna say I just found this thread and seeing my own post really confused me - posting in a thread with no recollection of doing so would be a new one for me. Obviously I've already stated my case regarding balance.
You had done a well enough job pointing out some of the bigger mechanical concerns in another thread. Thought it'd be alright if I quoted and sourced it to better help.
But yeah as Ursus said, if partnered content goes, it needs to have someone who can get things right, at the very least patching out its problems. Be it wording or balancing. This kind of thing has potential, but it needs to be done with the same care WotC and Matt give their work.
This could be a step forward to patching the Planeshift pdfs, and as many people have pointed out, more crossovers. I have friends who are really excited to see more ways to apply Runeterra into the game to further expand worlds or simply give us who haven't gotten into LoL a taste of its lore.
However if not done right, it will simply be shut down and forgotten. Which I'm sure we can all agree isn't the goal here. A careful review and proper patching can go a long way.
Runeterra content is not that. Its a poorly written, seemingly unreviewed mess. I could name a half-dozen community homebrewers that would have done a better job with the material than what we got. Heck, I could probably do a better job, and that's a pretty low bar to clear. Its almost insulting - we can't add well-tuned homebrew classes (like the Pugilist) yet but we're given this jumble of words and expected to like it? Reminder - we still have (seemingly daily) threads from people who don't understand why they have to buy books 'twice' for this platform, failing to understand that Fandom and D&D Beyond are not run by WotC. You expect everyone to understand that Runeterra is essentially glorified homebrew?
DanDwiki was a punchline for some jokes for a while because it would have things broken things like the 'Lightning Mage' and 'Demigod' alongside official SRD content. This platform should be better curated than that.
I don't think this level of hyperbole is particularly helpful or reasonable.
Are there homebrewers who can do better? Sure, but there are homebrewers who do a lot better than WotC (who have some huge problems with creating underpowered stuff particularly, whilst randomly slipping in OP stuff too), so that's not saying much, and humble-brags about how you could do better (and yeah, that is absolutely a humble-brag, when you claim that and attempt to say it's a "low bar") aren't helping matters. Stuff like "a jumble of words" is ridiculous hyperbole when you compare this stuff to most 3PP stuff, which far better fits that description. Nor does comparing this to DandDwiki. This sort of thing, whilst extremely fun to type, doesn't get us anywhere, and isn't convincing to anyone who doesn't already agree with your position. There are mechanical issues with this stuff, for sure, but it's not total junk in the way you're describing.
I don't think we should be engaging in fun-as-they are hyperbolic condemnations of this stuff. It's not going away, and that's a good way to make yourself and people agreeing with your position look like unreasonable "internet people", rather than people with a point.
What we need to asking for is that they don't leave it as is, but go back and do a balance and wording pass on this. It's no worse than some UAs we've seen. Indeed, I'd argue it's better than a couple. With the Barbarian teleport, for example, it'd be incredibly easy to just limit that to say CON mod (minimum 1) times/short rest. Then it's still a powerful and flavourful ability, but it's not the wildly powerful ability it is now.
Eurhetmec, I really don't think I'm being that hyperbolic. We can't give it a pass because 'some 3PP' stuff is worse. This is partner material, front and center on the home page. I like this platform. I like it's utility, execution, and it's staff. When the 'partner' label is slapped on something, it suggests we should trust that it is good stuff because it is endorsed by this platform we love. It should be held to a higher standard than homebrew, 3rd party material, and even UA. I think it falls flat in that regard.
My comparison to DandDwiki stands. I brought it up because the people who run that site actually improved it after some of the feedback it was receiving. They reached out to the community and made a concerted effort to fix what was wrong. I respect them for that. But I absolutely think it's a valid cautionary tale for separating official from unofficial material. D&D Beyond WAS doing a good job of that.
I'm not going to argue which UA was better or worse, but it's worth noting that the UA eventually goes away, either as refined published material or as culled failures. You're saying this isn't going away - so shouldn't it be better than UA?
Sure, attack me for humble-bragging. I am currently working on a homebrew revision in case a player likes the concept. I do think it will be better. I know it won't be great. I am not exaggerating when I say that I felt at least 80% of the features in the subclasses need significant wording improvement, balance adjustment, or both. My point is that anyone who can at least ape the syntax of official published material could do better than what we got just by virtue of being consistent with the rest of the game.
You call it hyperbole, I call it indignation. I was actually angry when I read it, for more reasons than just balance. My condemnations are just as valid as your defense of the stuff - and vice versa - so I would appreciate it if you avoided ad-hominem attacks against myself and the other "unreasonable internet people" who have the misfortune (heh) of sharing my opinion.
Edits: All that said, I would be happy to post yet another wall of text detailing potential issues with it while omitting my feelings as best as I can, if that's your suggestion.
Runeterra content is not that. Its a poorly written, seemingly unreviewed mess. I could name a half-dozen community homebrewers that would have done a better job with the material than what we got. Heck, I could probably do a better job, and that's a pretty low bar to clear. Its almost insulting - we can't add well-tuned homebrew classes (like the Pugilist) yet but we're given this jumble of words and expected to like it? Reminder - we still have (seemingly daily) threads from people who don't understand why they have to buy books 'twice' for this platform, failing to understand that Fandom and D&D Beyond are not run by WotC. You expect everyone to understand that Runeterra is essentially glorified homebrew?
DanDwiki was a punchline for some jokes for a while because it would have things broken things like the 'Lightning Mage' and 'Demigod' alongside official SRD content. This platform should be better curated than that.
I don't think this level of hyperbole is particularly helpful or reasonable.
Are there homebrewers who can do better? Sure, but there are homebrewers who do a lot better than WotC (who have some huge problems with creating underpowered stuff particularly, whilst randomly slipping in OP stuff too), so that's not saying much, and humble-brags about how you could do better (and yeah, that is absolutely a humble-brag, when you claim that and attempt to say it's a "low bar") aren't helping matters. Stuff like "a jumble of words" is ridiculous hyperbole when you compare this stuff to most 3PP stuff, which far better fits that description. Nor does comparing this to DandDwiki. This sort of thing, whilst extremely fun to type, doesn't get us anywhere, and isn't convincing to anyone who doesn't already agree with your position. There are mechanical issues with this stuff, for sure, but it's not total junk in the way you're describing.
I don't think we should be engaging in fun-as-they are hyperbolic condemnations of this stuff. It's not going away, and that's a good way to make yourself and people agreeing with your position look like unreasonable "internet people", rather than people with a point.
What we need to asking for is that they don't leave it as is, but go back and do a balance and wording pass on this. It's no worse than some UAs we've seen. Indeed, I'd argue it's better than a couple. With the Barbarian teleport, for example, it'd be incredibly easy to just limit that to say CON mod (minimum 1) times/short rest. Then it's still a powerful and flavourful ability, but it's not the wildly powerful ability it is now.
I don't think that Ursus's comments are hyperbolic. If the Runeterra stuff had been presented for playtesting, I would be more okay with it. (I still wouldn't have liked the flavour.) But they were presented a s a finished product, and I feel that they need some heavy revisions.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
As a long time fan of Runeterra and it's lore this really hits home!
Sub-classes seem a bit too strong compared to most official stuff, but it's manageable, and brings some new flavour to the cast. Very glad we finally got a new gun and card class, been waiting a long time for that.
Might run a one-shot one of these days with this as a theme.
A regular battlemaster with crossbow expert and sharpshooter out damage and remain more accurate than this class.
Plus this is with assumption archery & sharpshooter should apply to Renegade, if they don't Renegade is severely out damaged.
Even that's ignoring the fact that you can't even 1+ these weapons too.
Hell Pistol from needs a buff.
You're not making a fair comparison - your example build uses two of the strongest feats in the game and relies on a limited resource (precision attack) to maintain Accuracy.
Double-up Sniper deals 12d10+10 damage per round with superior range. Every round, with zero investment or setup. Sure, if we include Sharpshooter, it takes a back seat at face value. On the other hand, with a bonus action that 12d10+10 is made with advantage. Elven Accuracy or Lucky might be a good replacement for Sharpshooter if we need one, as increased crit chance scales marvelously with higher damage dice.
I'm assuming a ballpark of 110 or so for crossbow damage, consistently, at the cost of two feats. 76 damage at advantage with no feats is pretty strong, right?
A regular battlemaster with crossbow expert and sharpshooter out damage and remain more accurate than this class.
Plus this is with assumption archery & sharpshooter should apply to Renegade, if they don't Renegade is severely out damaged.
Even that's ignoring the fact that you can't even 1+ these weapons too.
Hell Pistol from needs a buff.
You're not making a fair comparison - your example build uses two of the strongest feats in the game and relies on a limited resource (precision attack) to maintain Accuracy.
Double-up Sniper deals 12d10+10 damage per round with superior range. Every round, with zero investment or setup. Sure, if we include Sharpshooter, it takes a back seat at face value. On the other hand, with a bonus action that 12d10+10 is made with advantage. Elven Accuracy or Lucky might be a good replacement for Sharpshooter if we need one, as increased crit chance scales marvelously with higher damage dice.
I'm assuming a ballpark of 110 or so for crossbow damage, consistently, at the cost of two feats. 76 damage at advantage with no feats is pretty strong, right?
Or more if you forgo the advantage and use trial by fire.
Echo Knight can only do that once every other turn though, and while they're doing that they aren't using their Echo for anything else.
Ghostwater lets you move 70 per turn, every turn, with no drawbacks except 1 less attack the turn you move. Multiclass into Rogue and you can use that for free sneak attacks. Heck, you could multiclass into Echo Knight fighter for more movement.
I just put together a Renegade Pistol user level 8, with max dex and being an elf my pistol attack is currently showing as +16 to hit, and I currently can't find out how this is calculating. Unless im missing something it shouldnt be more then 11 max. Is this a glitch with the system or am I being dumb because its getting late.
That being said as a League lore fan, I love that this came to be! I hope more League content makes its way to the site, and another partnership that would be amazing would be something like Final Fantasy, or DC comics. Possibilities as a fan are endless just like DnD should be, so keep it up!
Link to character
https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/ForLeafClover/characters/14362892
Something's definitely calculating wrong - your bonus action has a +14 on the attack, but the description says it should be +8.
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
Its a world based off the video game League of Legends and this is partnered
Just wanna say I just found this thread and seeing my own post really confused me - posting in a thread with no recollection of doing so would be a new one for me. Obviously I've already stated my case regarding balance.
I'm not fundamentally opposed to 'partnered content' on D&D Beyond. But this is the wrong way to do it. Matt Mercer's content is often accepted as 'almost official' because he's a known, respected figure in the community that brought a lot of people to the hobby. His material has been pretty extensively playtested, and while not perfect, has never really been gamebreaking. The quality of his homebrew is reinforced by the fact that he has an official sourcebook out now that has been generally well-received.
Runeterra content is not that. Its a poorly written, seemingly unreviewed mess. I could name a half-dozen community homebrewers that would have done a better job with the material than what we got. Heck, I could probably do a better job, and that's a pretty low bar to clear. Its almost insulting - we can't add well-tuned homebrew classes (like the Pugilist) yet but we're given this jumble of words and expected to like it? Reminder - we still have (seemingly daily) threads from people who don't understand why they have to buy books 'twice' for this platform, failing to understand that Fandom and D&D Beyond are not run by WotC. You expect everyone to understand that Runeterra is essentially glorified homebrew?
DanDwiki was a punchline for some jokes for a while because it would have things broken things like the 'Lightning Mage' and 'Demigod' alongside official SRD content. This platform should be better curated than that.
This is especially grating with the obnoxious advertisements for Idle Champions of the Forgotten Realms and digital dice microtransactions.
Another medical problem. Indefinite hiatus. Sorry, all.
Hey for Renegade if you just start at level 5 you can get both Crosshair and double barrel which you wouldn't be able to do starting from 1 to 5. This is a bug I am assuming.
Also the nature of Renegades gun. Should archery and Sharpshooter work with it? Is it considered a weapon for purposes of magic upgrades, can the artificer who has firearm proficiency use? Does it have weight? If someone steals it what does it become in the inventory?
I would say the pistol blade upgrade attack should just the same like double barrel, a part of the action instead of a bonus attack. Making the blade part a bonus attack makes the sniper the obvious best option.
You had done a well enough job pointing out some of the bigger mechanical concerns in another thread. Thought it'd be alright if I quoted and sourced it to better help.
But yeah as Ursus said, if partnered content goes, it needs to have someone who can get things right, at the very least patching out its problems. Be it wording or balancing. This kind of thing has potential, but it needs to be done with the same care WotC and Matt give their work.
This could be a step forward to patching the Planeshift pdfs, and as many people have pointed out, more crossovers. I have friends who are really excited to see more ways to apply Runeterra into the game to further expand worlds or simply give us who haven't gotten into LoL a taste of its lore.
However if not done right, it will simply be shut down and forgotten. Which I'm sure we can all agree isn't the goal here. A careful review and proper patching can go a long way.
I don't think this level of hyperbole is particularly helpful or reasonable.
Are there homebrewers who can do better? Sure, but there are homebrewers who do a lot better than WotC (who have some huge problems with creating underpowered stuff particularly, whilst randomly slipping in OP stuff too), so that's not saying much, and humble-brags about how you could do better (and yeah, that is absolutely a humble-brag, when you claim that and attempt to say it's a "low bar") aren't helping matters. Stuff like "a jumble of words" is ridiculous hyperbole when you compare this stuff to most 3PP stuff, which far better fits that description. Nor does comparing this to DandDwiki. This sort of thing, whilst extremely fun to type, doesn't get us anywhere, and isn't convincing to anyone who doesn't already agree with your position. There are mechanical issues with this stuff, for sure, but it's not total junk in the way you're describing.
I don't think we should be engaging in fun-as-they are hyperbolic condemnations of this stuff. It's not going away, and that's a good way to make yourself and people agreeing with your position look like unreasonable "internet people", rather than people with a point.
What we need to asking for is that they don't leave it as is, but go back and do a balance and wording pass on this. It's no worse than some UAs we've seen. Indeed, I'd argue it's better than a couple. With the Barbarian teleport, for example, it'd be incredibly easy to just limit that to say CON mod (minimum 1) times/short rest. Then it's still a powerful and flavourful ability, but it's not the wildly powerful ability it is now.
Eurhetmec, I really don't think I'm being that hyperbolic. We can't give it a pass because 'some 3PP' stuff is worse. This is partner material, front and center on the home page. I like this platform. I like it's utility, execution, and it's staff. When the 'partner' label is slapped on something, it suggests we should trust that it is good stuff because it is endorsed by this platform we love. It should be held to a higher standard than homebrew, 3rd party material, and even UA. I think it falls flat in that regard.
My comparison to DandDwiki stands. I brought it up because the people who run that site actually improved it after some of the feedback it was receiving. They reached out to the community and made a concerted effort to fix what was wrong. I respect them for that. But I absolutely think it's a valid cautionary tale for separating official from unofficial material. D&D Beyond WAS doing a good job of that.
I'm not going to argue which UA was better or worse, but it's worth noting that the UA eventually goes away, either as refined published material or as culled failures. You're saying this isn't going away - so shouldn't it be better than UA?
Sure, attack me for humble-bragging. I am currently working on a homebrew revision in case a player likes the concept. I do think it will be better. I know it won't be great. I am not exaggerating when I say that I felt at least 80% of the features in the subclasses need significant wording improvement, balance adjustment, or both. My point is that anyone who can at least ape the syntax of official published material could do better than what we got just by virtue of being consistent with the rest of the game.
You call it hyperbole, I call it indignation. I was actually angry when I read it, for more reasons than just balance. My condemnations are just as valid as your defense of the stuff - and vice versa - so I would appreciate it if you avoided ad-hominem attacks against myself and the other "unreasonable internet people" who have the misfortune (heh) of sharing my opinion.
Edits: All that said, I would be happy to post yet another wall of text detailing potential issues with it while omitting my feelings as best as I can, if that's your suggestion.
Another medical problem. Indefinite hiatus. Sorry, all.
Dear dndbeyond,
is it maybe possible that you guys make a map of bilgewater to get a better view where al the districts are located?
greetings!
I don't think that Ursus's comments are hyperbolic. If the Runeterra stuff had been presented for playtesting, I would be more okay with it. (I still wouldn't have liked the flavour.) But they were presented a s a finished product, and I feel that they need some heavy revisions.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
As a long time fan of Runeterra and it's lore this really hits home!
Sub-classes seem a bit too strong compared to most official stuff, but it's manageable, and brings some new flavour to the cast.
Very glad we finally got a new gun and card class, been waiting a long time for that.
Might run a one-shot one of these days with this as a theme.
Anyone saying Renegade is OP isn't making sense.
A regular battlemaster with crossbow expert and sharpshooter out damage and remain more accurate than this class.
Plus this is with assumption archery & sharpshooter should apply to Renegade, if they don't Renegade is severely out damaged.
Even that's ignoring the fact that you can't even 1+ these weapons too.
Hell Pistol from needs a buff.
You're not making a fair comparison - your example build uses two of the strongest feats in the game and relies on a limited resource (precision attack) to maintain Accuracy.
Double-up Sniper deals 12d10+10 damage per round with superior range. Every round, with zero investment or setup. Sure, if we include Sharpshooter, it takes a back seat at face value. On the other hand, with a bonus action that 12d10+10 is made with advantage. Elven Accuracy or Lucky might be a good replacement for Sharpshooter if we need one, as increased crit chance scales marvelously with higher damage dice.
I'm assuming a ballpark of 110 or so for crossbow damage, consistently, at the cost of two feats. 76 damage at advantage with no feats is pretty strong, right?
Another medical problem. Indefinite hiatus. Sorry, all.
Or more if you forgo the advantage and use trial by fire.
Why is Bilgewater now completely gone? What happened? Didn't we have until August 10th?
I can still find it on the Sources tab. https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/lrdtob
Another medical problem. Indefinite hiatus. Sorry, all.
The sources link works - the fancy splash (hah) page (the second link in the first post on this thread) is now a 404. Was that what you meant?
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
What happens on the 10th?
Apparently, some or all of the content will be removed.
You get a wonderfull view from the point of no return.
-Terry Pratchett