My fiancee and I have been doing some world building, and our home setting is sort of an alternate universe Forgotten Realms. We've been fleshing out the origin story as of late, and it occurs to me that the gods seem to be relatively unimportant, mechanically speaking, in 5e. Our setting is really heavily influenced by the Divine, as it takes place in a tiny dimension created relatively recently as a romantic little getaway for Ilmater and Kiltzi.
As far as Divine magic goes, your Domain, Oath or Circle determines what kind of spells you get, not your particular holy figurehead, and that's pretty much that in 5e. I enjoy that the gods add flavor to the game play experience, but can't help but think that it would be really cool if the gods gave particular blessings like an extra cantrip or feature or SOMETHING based on choosing them over all the others.
Other than 5e, I've only had minimal experience with 3e. Have PC god choices had more influence over game play in past editions of the game? In what ways? TEACH ME YOUR WAYS, O WISE ONES.
I should also add that because of this line of thinking, we've home-brewed some rules that state if you have a good reason for your Cleric to choose a Domain that is outside of their particular god's sphere of influence, you can make an appeal to the DM about it. For instance, Kiltzi is an oddball, and doesn't have "traditional" core Domains, and we've interpreted her as having the Life and Nature domains, but an argument could be made for Light as well. My PC is a Cleric of Mystra, and she's a Life cleric, which is specific to her particular temple because of the role that particular temple plays in the history of the world.
TL;DR: if you have a good reason for your god to have a portfolio that the rulebook says they don't have, there are ways of making it so, for character/world flavor reasons, cause as the official rules stand, it doesn't super seem to matter.
I have a home brew West March campaign that includes a cast of six player characters at present.
One is a dwarven member of house Balderk , Minor Household of Clan Redstone , faithful , inquisitive and ever prideful warpriest of Tharmekhul , God of the Forge and War. Due to his God , i allow him advantage on any investigation or other matters relating to the use or origin of forge made items , techniques etc.
With a background tied closely to his house's faithful service to the dwarven pantheon , i provide advantage to his history of any historical event relating to his God and his Gods Domains. Researching historical events of wars that his God's followers were part of .. you get advantage.
Crafting a suit of chainmail under the auspice of the house's masters of the forge , i provide advantage.
Not because he is a dwarf. But because his patron is his life. Every facet of this dwarf is linked to his patron and his backstory as a character within the realm of Aurelius.
Unsure how to break down that metal gate ... he spends 10mins communing with his god , rolls insight ... beats a dc - he instantly understands the weak points of that gate in that archway , and can dismantle that gate easier than he could of done so before. Fails the roll .... and he has failed to hear the words his god for ever speaks ... and for the rest of the day , takes disadvantage in all of his previous rolls he had advantage in until he appeases his god or takes a long rest were he can spend several hours in pennance to the GOD OF SMITHS and WAR.
Did he stand back and allow a dwarf of his house or the Clan at large ( In my world , 3 major dwarf houses make up Clan Redstone ) .. to become victim to harm without offering or attempting aid? The God of the Forge and WAR refuses to grant him his class abilities until he rights the wrong he has caused to his people and his God.
Did he seek to bring hammer and flame to those who attacked the Clan? Did he succeed ? His ever watchful and vengeful God of WAR rewards him with an extra spell slot to use in his next fight.
I do the same for our warlock and his patron. Certain activities are rewarded with small one time bonus's above and beyond default class and level. Other actions are punished ... maybe a spell attack bonus is lowered for that one attack ... or a previous safe cantrip engulfs its caster in eldritch flames instead.
The Gods are fickle entities .. and while they do not watch each and every follower of the mortal realms of Faerun ... from time to time , certain actions gain their interest.
Stand out above the crowd for GOOD or ILL ... and the rewards and punishments follow.
And outside of a vision ... i never allow my players to know what they have done has angered or pleased a Deity or Patron enough to draw notice until the reward or punishment is administrated.
Wow, what a great response, and what an awesome way to reward your players! One of the parts I love most about this game is the open ended-ness of some of the rules that allow people to homebrew super cool stuff like that. I'm relatively new to the game and only lend an occasional hand to the DM, but I tend to be from the school of thought that you need to know the rules to break them effectively. It's tough! There's a lot of homework to do! But it sounds like you're doing a great job!
Unless you're running a very non-standard setting, it doesn't make sense for anyone to "choose" a god unless they're a cleric. Most D&D worlds have multiple pantheons of gods that handle every aspect of daily life and none of them have any personal investment in you. When you travel by sea, you pay tribute to the sea gods, and when you're going into battle, you pray to the war gods, and so on.
Unless you're running a very non-standard setting, it doesn't make sense for anyone to "choose" a god unless they're a cleric. Most D&D worlds have multiple pantheons of gods that handle every aspect of daily life and none of them have any personal investment in you. When you travel by sea, you pay tribute to the sea gods, and when you're going into battle, you pray to the war gods, and so on.
As far as Divine magic goes, your Domain, Oath or Circle determines what kind of spells you get, not your particular holy figurehead, and that's pretty much that in 5e. I enjoy that the gods add flavor to the game play experience, but can't help but think that it would be really cool if the gods gave particular blessings like an extra cantrip or feature or SOMETHING based on choosing them over all the others.
Unless i am mistaken in my understanding of @RainbowInTheDork's paragraph , the poster is stating specifically about flavor effects for Deities that a Cleric , Druid , Paladin etc may recieve for good or ill , based on the divine nature of their powers more so than ... Johnny the foot-pad rogue , young nier do well of the local thieves guild who happens to be a somewhat happenstance follower of the God of Justice Tyr.
Example. As a follower of a God of the LIFE domain , my Dm gives me an extra +1 to healing spell effects or , A follower of the UnderDark God of Decay , my Necromancer receives a bonus to necrotic damage under certain conditions etc.
Over say .. Johnny the foot pad who gets access to a cantrip from the life domain because ... reasons.
Well, sometimes a non-divine character might be specific about a god they pray to and worship, but yes. The entire point of a pantheon from a god's perspective is to split duties and have a unified front, while from the average person's perspective it's to focus on what you want help on and who you need to thank. The average person in a polytheistic society might have a deity they particularly like, but they're going to probably regularly pray to all of them. Clerics are supposed to be specific representatives and I think of this is the primary divide between Clerics and Paladins. Clerics are god or religion representatives, Paladins are knights of an oath or ideal. Can a Paladin represent a god in story? Sure, in fact that's what most Devotion Paladins I see are. However, I would suggest shying away from it to make the classes thematically separate. Now focusing back on Clerics, it makes sense that a Cleric of a specific god would have a Domain that fits that god. Back in 3e I remember this actually being a requirement of that class, with lists of deities and acceptable Domains and Alignments (though they still allowed non-god Clerics). It would also make sense that a Cleric would naturally act, or try to act, or pretend to act in certain ways because of their god/religion, you know, like real priests and clerics do.
I really like the idea of a cantrip or feat even that is specific to one's diety. I have used an extra feat bonus for campaign flavor (which sometimes provides a cantrip), and it works well. That way, you get some of the god's influence into your campaign and it influences the actions of characters because they have an incentive to use that power. I also sometimes have gods provide campaign information or influence in the form of elven trances, dreams, or visions. I would try to keep this rare though since it should be a very significant campaign event. Otherwise, they wouldn't have much influence until you are 30th level and fighting demon lords or something.
I like the concept of the Gods being almost NPC's which in abstract ways impact on the story you tell with your players..I am building a campaign really ignoring many of the accepted constraints of the D&D world. My Gods are a fickle bunch, Older Gods confident in their superiority through existing longer than the young upstarts, and painfully blind to another divine threat to them and their world.
My younger Gods are the Gods of an expansionist empire dead set on domination, so arrogant, over confident and contemptuous of the old Gods, and even more unaware of the threat to the divine
I intend to give progressive powers to my players from the Gods they worship as they stumble through the worlds I am building to confront the real divine threat
Influence is non-existant to start and subtley increases, but without them - where will your story come from?
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The D&D Revolution,................Art over Science......... Humanity over Systems,............Friendship over Victory
Lore wise I feel that WotC kept the gods and what not mostly as flavor but don’t have any direct impact on players through official rules with 5th edition. Unless you have a DM that tries to play them as important.
Personally I feel that it just makes sense in the setting of D&D that people understand that the gods are real and they have an impact on the world because there is undeniable proof. Maybe the average person does not see their influence but once in a lifetime, but PC are supposed to be more than average. If the PC is a holy or devout individual then regardless of their class they may do something to receive a blessing as long as they adhere to behavior their god would approve of, or punished for actions their god would disapprove of. If they are not particularly religious then they don’t need to worry about either, though they may wish some divine backing if they are ever fighting something from the outer realms.
AincStalker had a lot of good ideas.
The Legend of Drizzit books can also give a decent idea of how the gods may be actively or passively affecting the world. The drow for example are so invested in Lolth that killing a spider in her domain can have severe ramifications. In the Out of the Abyss adventure source book where the drow are lead antagonists, there are multiple opportunities to steal religious baubles worth a lot of gold from them but almost each time the PC will end up cursed to be attacked by spiders without end until they return the bauble to a Lolth worshiper.
Wow, y'all have really answered the call here and given me a lot to think about as far as god-flavored stuff goes on our campaign setting. I don't know if it's realistic to go through the whole ding dang pantheon and think about boons the gods can be giving out to players cause that's a lot, and might be tough to balance. Maybe if we ever end up writing the whole thing out, we'll make a pamphlet specific to the DM that suggests ways of rewarding worshipers of specific gods, maybe reviving old-school behavioral requirements, or even doing occasional little side quests in exchange for them.
Quote from SladeTracey>>Clerics are supposed to be specific representatives and I think of this is the primary divide between Clerics and Paladins. Clerics are god or religion representatives...
I love your overall point, but I have to quibble slightly with this particular bit. One of the things I love about 5E lore is the distinction it makes between priests and clerics. From the PHB:
”Not every acolyte or officiant at a temple or shrine is a cleric. Some priests are called to a simple life of temple service, carrying out their gods’ will through prayer and sacrifice, not by magic and strength of arms. In some cities, priesthood amounts to a political office, viewed as a stepping stone to higher positions of authority and involving no communion with a god at all. True clerics are rare in most hierarchies.”
So I’d say the difference between a priest and a cleric is like the difference between your local minister or evangelist, and the wandering mystic who performs actual miracles. A priest could be any of the PC classes (including cleric) or a “normal.”
I suspect the "gods" can be a significant aid to roleplay and character development. I typically chose a god whose alignment matches mine - or perhaps matches an alignment my character is striving for. My main character right now is a level 7 Rogue - he worships Sune the goddess of beauty and as a result, is very concerned about not getting hit in the face because Sune values physical beauty and my character does not wish to lose her favor by becoming disfigured from some stupid goblins lucky blow. As a result, my character makes some choices that seem almost cowardly - running away from battles while others stand and fight (usually results in circling around and getting in a sneak attack - he is a rogue after all)
The truth about characters, and humans, is that they tend to behave towards the examples given by worldview. One who worships an CE deity is likely to act in a very CE way. One who professes no official alliance to a deity is still going to act in the manner in which they perceive exemplified by whatever or whoever stands behind the curtain.
Forgotten Realms: Yeah. The gods are explicitly present, and active, and anyone who doesn't pick one ends up as a brick in a wall or something.
Eberron: Gods? Yeah, they might exist. Nobody's ever seen or talked to one though. Not even Solars have.
The default assumption of 5e appears to be that you can play a divine character without a god. Paladins are inspired by their conviction, not by the favor of a diety. Clerics have domains still, yes, but you can be a Cleric of Just Nature instead of a Cleric of Obad-Hai or Silvanus.
I don't usually play devout characters because the presence of gods takes away agency from the party and has a lot of troubling implications for any setting where the PCs are meant to be heros.
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Another medical problem. Indefinite hiatus. Sorry, all.
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My fiancee and I have been doing some world building, and our home setting is sort of an alternate universe Forgotten Realms. We've been fleshing out the origin story as of late, and it occurs to me that the gods seem to be relatively unimportant, mechanically speaking, in 5e. Our setting is really heavily influenced by the Divine, as it takes place in a tiny dimension created relatively recently as a romantic little getaway for Ilmater and Kiltzi.
As far as Divine magic goes, your Domain, Oath or Circle determines what kind of spells you get, not your particular holy figurehead, and that's pretty much that in 5e. I enjoy that the gods add flavor to the game play experience, but can't help but think that it would be really cool if the gods gave particular blessings like an extra cantrip or feature or SOMETHING based on choosing them over all the others.
Other than 5e, I've only had minimal experience with 3e. Have PC god choices had more influence over game play in past editions of the game? In what ways? TEACH ME YOUR WAYS, O WISE ONES.
I should also add that because of this line of thinking, we've home-brewed some rules that state if you have a good reason for your Cleric to choose a Domain that is outside of their particular god's sphere of influence, you can make an appeal to the DM about it. For instance, Kiltzi is an oddball, and doesn't have "traditional" core Domains, and we've interpreted her as having the Life and Nature domains, but an argument could be made for Light as well. My PC is a Cleric of Mystra, and she's a Life cleric, which is specific to her particular temple because of the role that particular temple plays in the history of the world.
TL;DR: if you have a good reason for your god to have a portfolio that the rulebook says they don't have, there are ways of making it so, for character/world flavor reasons, cause as the official rules stand, it doesn't super seem to matter.
I have a home brew West March campaign that includes a cast of six player characters at present.
One is a dwarven member of house Balderk , Minor Household of Clan Redstone , faithful , inquisitive and ever prideful warpriest of Tharmekhul , God of the Forge and War.
Due to his God , i allow him advantage on any investigation or other matters relating to the use or origin of forge made items , techniques etc.
With a background tied closely to his house's faithful service to the dwarven pantheon , i provide advantage to his history of any historical event relating to his God and his Gods Domains. Researching historical events of wars that his God's followers were part of .. you get advantage.
Crafting a suit of chainmail under the auspice of the house's masters of the forge , i provide advantage.
Not because he is a dwarf. But because his patron is his life. Every facet of this dwarf is linked to his patron and his backstory as a character within the realm of Aurelius.
Unsure how to break down that metal gate ... he spends 10mins communing with his god , rolls insight ... beats a dc - he instantly understands the weak points of that gate
in that archway , and can dismantle that gate easier than he could of done so before.
Fails the roll .... and he has failed to hear the words his god for ever speaks ... and for the rest of the day , takes disadvantage in all of his previous rolls he had advantage in until he appeases his god or takes a long rest were he can spend several hours in pennance to the GOD OF SMITHS and WAR.
Did he stand back and allow a dwarf of his house or the Clan at large ( In my world , 3 major dwarf houses make up Clan Redstone ) .. to become victim to harm without offering or attempting aid? The God of the Forge and WAR refuses to grant him his class abilities until he rights the wrong he has caused to his people and his God.
Did he seek to bring hammer and flame to those who attacked the Clan? Did he succeed ?
His ever watchful and vengeful God of WAR rewards him with an extra spell slot to use in his next fight.
I do the same for our warlock and his patron.
Certain activities are rewarded with small one time bonus's above and beyond default class and level.
Other actions are punished ... maybe a spell attack bonus is lowered for that one attack ... or a previous safe cantrip engulfs its caster in eldritch flames instead.
The Gods are fickle entities .. and while they do not watch each and every follower of the mortal realms of Faerun ... from time to time , certain actions gain their interest.
Stand out above the crowd for GOOD or ILL ... and the rewards and punishments follow.
And outside of a vision ... i never allow my players to know what they have done has angered or pleased a Deity or Patron enough to draw notice until the reward or punishment is administrated.
Wow, what a great response, and what an awesome way to reward your players! One of the parts I love most about this game is the open ended-ness of some of the rules that allow people to homebrew super cool stuff like that. I'm relatively new to the game and only lend an occasional hand to the DM, but I tend to be from the school of thought that you need to know the rules to break them effectively. It's tough! There's a lot of homework to do! But it sounds like you're doing a great job!
Unless you're running a very non-standard setting, it doesn't make sense for anyone to "choose" a god unless they're a cleric. Most D&D worlds have multiple pantheons of gods that handle every aspect of daily life and none of them have any personal investment in you. When you travel by sea, you pay tribute to the sea gods, and when you're going into battle, you pray to the war gods, and so on.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
More less agreed.
Op does say
Unless i am mistaken in my understanding of @RainbowInTheDork's paragraph , the poster is stating specifically about flavor effects for Deities that a Cleric , Druid , Paladin etc may recieve for good or ill , based on the divine nature of their powers more so than ... Johnny the foot-pad rogue , young nier do well of the local thieves guild who happens to be a somewhat happenstance follower of the God of Justice Tyr.
Example.
As a follower of a God of the LIFE domain , my Dm gives me an extra +1 to healing spell effects or , A follower of the UnderDark God of Decay , my Necromancer receives a bonus to necrotic damage under certain conditions etc.
Over say .. Johnny the foot pad who gets access to a cantrip from the life domain because ... reasons.
Well, sometimes a non-divine character might be specific about a god they pray to and worship, but yes. The entire point of a pantheon from a god's perspective is to split duties and have a unified front, while from the average person's perspective it's to focus on what you want help on and who you need to thank. The average person in a polytheistic society might have a deity they particularly like, but they're going to probably regularly pray to all of them. Clerics are supposed to be specific representatives and I think of this is the primary divide between Clerics and Paladins. Clerics are god or religion representatives, Paladins are knights of an oath or ideal. Can a Paladin represent a god in story? Sure, in fact that's what most Devotion Paladins I see are. However, I would suggest shying away from it to make the classes thematically separate. Now focusing back on Clerics, it makes sense that a Cleric of a specific god would have a Domain that fits that god. Back in 3e I remember this actually being a requirement of that class, with lists of deities and acceptable Domains and Alignments (though they still allowed non-god Clerics). It would also make sense that a Cleric would naturally act, or try to act, or pretend to act in certain ways because of their god/religion, you know, like real priests and clerics do.
if your playing evil alinmnents , in campain , it could flavor your beliefs with deity worship if you choose to do so.
I really like the idea of a cantrip or feat even that is specific to one's diety. I have used an extra feat bonus for campaign flavor (which sometimes provides a cantrip), and it works well. That way, you get some of the god's influence into your campaign and it influences the actions of characters because they have an incentive to use that power. I also sometimes have gods provide campaign information or influence in the form of elven trances, dreams, or visions. I would try to keep this rare though since it should be a very significant campaign event. Otherwise, they wouldn't have much influence until you are 30th level and fighting demon lords or something.
I like the concept of the Gods being almost NPC's which in abstract ways impact on the story you tell with your players..I am building a campaign really ignoring many of the accepted constraints of the D&D world. My Gods are a fickle bunch, Older Gods confident in their superiority through existing longer than the young upstarts, and painfully blind to another divine threat to them and their world.
My younger Gods are the Gods of an expansionist empire dead set on domination, so arrogant, over confident and contemptuous of the old Gods, and even more unaware of the threat to the divine
I intend to give progressive powers to my players from the Gods they worship as they stumble through the worlds I am building to confront the real divine threat
Influence is non-existant to start and subtley increases, but without them - where will your story come from?
The D&D Revolution,................Art over Science......... Humanity over Systems,............Friendship over Victory
Lore wise I feel that WotC kept the gods and what not mostly as flavor but don’t have any direct impact on players through official rules with 5th edition. Unless you have a DM that tries to play them as important.
Personally I feel that it just makes sense in the setting of D&D that people understand that the gods are real and they have an impact on the world because there is undeniable proof. Maybe the average person does not see their influence but once in a lifetime, but PC are supposed to be more than average. If the PC is a holy or devout individual then regardless of their class they may do something to receive a blessing as long as they adhere to behavior their god would approve of, or punished for actions their god would disapprove of. If they are not particularly religious then they don’t need to worry about either, though they may wish some divine backing if they are ever fighting something from the outer realms.
AincStalker had a lot of good ideas.
The Legend of Drizzit books can also give a decent idea of how the gods may be actively or passively affecting the world. The drow for example are so invested in Lolth that killing a spider in her domain can have severe ramifications. In the Out of the Abyss adventure source book where the drow are lead antagonists, there are multiple opportunities to steal religious baubles worth a lot of gold from them but almost each time the PC will end up cursed to be attacked by spiders without end until they return the bauble to a Lolth worshiper.
Wow, y'all have really answered the call here and given me a lot to think about as far as god-flavored stuff goes on our campaign setting. I don't know if it's realistic to go through the whole ding dang pantheon and think about boons the gods can be giving out to players cause that's a lot, and might be tough to balance. Maybe if we ever end up writing the whole thing out, we'll make a pamphlet specific to the DM that suggests ways of rewarding worshipers of specific gods, maybe reviving old-school behavioral requirements, or even doing occasional little side quests in exchange for them.
I love your overall point, but I have to quibble slightly with this particular bit. One of the things I love about 5E lore is the distinction it makes between priests and clerics. From the PHB:
”Not every acolyte or officiant at a temple or shrine is a cleric. Some priests are called to a simple life of temple service, carrying out their gods’ will through prayer and sacrifice, not by magic and strength of arms. In some cities, priesthood amounts to a political office, viewed as a stepping stone to higher positions of authority and involving no communion with a god at all. True clerics are rare in most hierarchies.”
So I’d say the difference between a priest and a cleric is like the difference between your local minister or evangelist, and the wandering mystic who performs actual miracles. A priest could be any of the PC classes (including cleric) or a “normal.”
the gods play a vital roll when it comes to paladins and clerics and other class like those ones.
I suspect the "gods" can be a significant aid to roleplay and character development. I typically chose a god whose alignment matches mine - or perhaps matches an alignment my character is striving for. My main character right now is a level 7 Rogue - he worships Sune the goddess of beauty and as a result, is very concerned about not getting hit in the face because Sune values physical beauty and my character does not wish to lose her favor by becoming disfigured from some stupid goblins lucky blow. As a result, my character makes some choices that seem almost cowardly - running away from battles while others stand and fight (usually results in circling around and getting in a sneak attack - he is a rogue after all)
The truth about characters, and humans, is that they tend to behave towards the examples given by worldview. One who worships an CE deity is likely to act in a very CE way. One who professes no official alliance to a deity is still going to act in the manner in which they perceive exemplified by whatever or whoever stands behind the curtain.
It depends on the setting.
Forgotten Realms: Yeah. The gods are explicitly present, and active, and anyone who doesn't pick one ends up as a brick in a wall or something.
Eberron: Gods? Yeah, they might exist. Nobody's ever seen or talked to one though. Not even Solars have.
The default assumption of 5e appears to be that you can play a divine character without a god. Paladins are inspired by their conviction, not by the favor of a diety. Clerics have domains still, yes, but you can be a Cleric of Just Nature instead of a Cleric of Obad-Hai or Silvanus.
I don't usually play devout characters because the presence of gods takes away agency from the party and has a lot of troubling implications for any setting where the PCs are meant to be heros.
Another medical problem. Indefinite hiatus. Sorry, all.