I think it would be smart for the development team to GO BACK to the 1980 Folio/1983 Box Set as the basis for a revamp and abandon much of the post-Gygax Flanaess from 2E onward. In other words, reset the timeline BACK to CY576. This would allow for incorporation of more "Classic Greyhawk Modules" being updated for 5E play. Since we are talking about D&D and there are all kinds of ways to do this, I think a relatively hard reset should be done. Who is to say that Greyhawk doesn't suffer from a great and powerful Time spell gone awry (think something on the level of The Invoked Devastation/The Rain of Colorless Fire) that's unleashed by The Circle of Eight in an effort to restore the balance destroyed in The Greyhawk Wars.
Most of what made Greyhawk special (for those of us who grew up with it) was basically tossed in the incinerator with The Greyhawk Wars & From the Ashes in 2E AD&D only to have the burned manuscript be blowtorched with The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer in 3E. What had been a post-apocalyptic Swords & Sorcery setting where humans make up 90% of the population (and the PCs are basically mercenary adventurers out to get gold instead of servants/flunkies for some "high powered munchkin of the week" *cough*Elminster*cough*) with a dash of High Fantasy (sure, there is the Sauron-like Iuz the Old running around and Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Orcs, Goblins, Hobgoblins, etc) set on a continent teetering closer and closer mass extinction (it literally is the "Points of Light" idea where there is a howling wilderness outside of the few places left with civilization) became something entirely different. Yet somehow most of nations had their population sizes increase two, three or even more times in size. For example, 1980 Folio/1983 Box Set Kingdom of Keoland went from a population of 300,000 to 1,800,000 in the 3E Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (and this is not an isolated example). This literally makes no sense as the continent had supposedly suffered a massive war that upset everything, including wiping out several nations as Iuz the Old steamrolled everyone in his path. Doing this roll back brings it back to its roots, making it more like the world of A Song of Ice & Fire (Game of Thrones for you Tv only fans) and The Witcher.
And yea, Tharizdun is NOT The Elder Elemental God. Tharizdun is an interloper god that is so much more powerful than the EEG. Think the difference between Azathoth (Tharizdun) vs Cthulhu (EEG). There is also the fact the EEG's name doesn't refer to the Classical Elements (Earth, Water, Air, Fire) but Elemental as in Primordial.
Greyhawk doesn't really provide anything that Forgotten Realms doesn't already provide, short of the lore which is inconsistent at best. I wouldn't want to see dev cycles wasted on Greyhawk that can, and imo, should be used in more unique content such as planescape.
I say that as a fan of traditional, high fantasy settings such as Greyhawk and Forgotten realms. I am a big Dragonlance fan, and don't wish to see them return to Krynn either. Dragonlance and Greyhawk simply don't add anythign we NEED. Let's give the people who want the weird stuff what the want.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Let's give the people who want the weird stuff what the want.
I mean the point of official releases is to appeal to the most amount of people and they have already released a lot of "weird stuff" lately with the MtG settings. Eberron is also "weird" compared to other high fantasy settings. Throw in the Acq Inc book and Wildemount and it could be argued that a large portion of their setting books have been catering to the "weird" or to specific fanbases. Sure the adventures are all set in FR but even FR doesn't have a good setting book, SCAG being widely considered one of the worst releases. Throwing in Greyhawk or Dragonlance or even a solid FR book feels necessary for those of us who don't want the "weird".
Oh I understand you. I hate that weird crap. I don't want it at all, personally. But, a lot of folks do.
FR doesn't have a campaign guide by design. They want it to be as nebulous as possible. They want as little locked into canon as possible. The reason why, is so that DMs feel more free to make the world their own. FR lore is the whole reason why I LIKE the realms, so I'm not keen on their plan, but I get it.
If you're looking for something good though, check out "The Border Kingdoms" in DMs guild. It's written by Ed Greenwood so its as canon as you can be without being from WOTC for FR, and there's a lot of good stuff in there. I have the PDF and the hardcover, the hardcover is very well done and professional. It's just lore and details, but it's very well done. No mechanics in there at all.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Greyhawk doesn't really provide anything that Forgotten Realms doesn't already provide
Well that's patently untrue. Greyhawk is VERY different from Forgotten Realms. For one thing, its a setting where there are vast wide open spaces on the maps EVERYWHERE. Its a continent with a human population density similar to Alaska (with a demi-human population even lower). You're supposed to adventure for a while and then carve out your own feudal fiefdom, etc. As I said, its literally a howling wilderness of darkness outside the few points of light keeping the flames of civilization alight. There are bandits everywhere. Humanoids raid towns and cults of Evil Chaos are all over the place when you get right down to it. The setting is more pulpy and less High Fantasy (let alone Heroic Fantasy like DragonLance).
The closest analogue to Greyhawk is probably Paizo's Kingmaker.
“Humankind is fragmented into isolationist realms, indifferent nations, evil lands, and states striving for good...Nomads, bandits, and barbarians raid southwards every spring and summer. Humanoid enclaves are strongly established and scattered throughout the continent, and wicked insanity rules in the Great Kingdom.” - World of Greyhawk (folio)
I like Dragonlance (my friend calls it soap opera fantasy lol) and Forgotten Realms (High fantasy), but I know nothing about Greyhawk. What makes it so special?
I like Dragonlance (my friend calls it soap opera fantasy lol) and Forgotten Realms (High fantasy), but I know nothing about Greyhawk. What makes it so special?
Well, for one thing, its where some of the most iconic elements of Dungeons & Dragons got their start (not all of them, mind you, but many of them). Despite claims to the contrary, its not a "typical fantasy world" and its certainly not the same as Forgotten Realms. It was designed from the beginning to not have an over-arcing MetaPlot that hamstrung DMs (that is until it was mangled by the post-Gygax TSR where they crammed The Greyhawk Wars down everyone's throats and put a metaplot in place).
Its a Swords & Sorcery setting (humanocentric) with a dash of High Fantasy (Tolkien-like fantasy races, and a "Dark Lord" in the form of the cambion demigod Iuz the Old) and Cosmic Horror (lots a Lovecraftian stuff: insane cults, Deep Ones analogues, etc). Its kind of a gonzo kitchen-sink setting as well: its got Fun-House type dungeon crawls (Castle Greyhawk, White Plume Mountain), mini campaigns (B1 In Search of the Unknown/B2 Keep on the Borderlands, The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth/The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun ), full-on campaigns (The Temple of Elemental Evil -> Scourge of the Slavelords -> Against the Giants, Descent into the Depths, Queen of the Demonweb Pits), crashed spaceships as "dungeon crawls" (Expedition to the Barrier Peaks) and so on.
Its a setting that is Post-Apocalyptic world where humanity is struggling to push back the darkness. Quite literally, outside of the major cities/settlements, its a howling wilderness of darkness full of not just humanoid monsters but human ones too (bandits made up of broken armies of whatever petty kingdoms/fiefdoms sprang up and were promptly squashed). Someone described it better than me as a sort of cross between 5th-8th Century Anglo-Saxon Britain (so not actualy Feudalism) with the aftermath of the horrors of The Black Death and The Hundred Years War in the 14th Century (basically, when Europe lost somewhere above 60% of its population).
Since the rules have changed in the intervening decades, it would need to bring back the Domain Play (Domain as in "Rule a stretch of land'), making it very similar to Pathfinder's Kingmaker. That's partially why the map wasn't full of cities/settlements in every single hex as the population density of most of the Flanaess was somewhere between modern Wyoming and Alaska (as in there is a TON of wilderness out there). There isn't so much a Good vs Evil struggle as a Law vs Chaos, with the "prime movers" (Mordenkainen, etc) trying for Balance between the powers (probably to keep humanity from being wiped off the map). In fact, in this regard its the polar opposite of Forgotten Realms: even when you're tasked with stopping some menace (the giants raiding from the Jotens or the Slavers of the Pomarj) or recovering something (Daoud's Wondrous Lanthorn, The Crook of Rao) its more to DENY the enemy a strategic victory. And as a PC you're the one doing it, not simply being sent on some side mission while "the real heroes" (aka Elminster, Drizzt etc) do the actual job. While it can kinda make some PCs like Murder Hobos (as your primary motivation will likely be gold, magical items and glory) you should have an actual impact on the plot of the story (unless your DM is a complete choad). And the reason you need all that money is to eventually get to the point where you go out to carve out a fiefdom for yourself, complete with small fortress and garrison so you can attract settlers to make a town to generate income.
To give modern comparisons, Greyhawk is kind of like the world of The Witcher and A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones in many ways. The Old Faith of Greyhawk is in many ways similar to the Old Gods of Westeros. The cult of R'hollor is kinda like the Blinding Light of Pholtus practiced by The Theocracy of the Pale. The Brotherhood without Banners (especially in A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons) is the model for a dispersed army formation turned to banditry found in Greyhawk.
Most of all, Greyhawk is a setting the DM is supposed to make his own.
I like Dragonlance (my friend calls it soap opera fantasy lol) and Forgotten Realms (High fantasy), but I know nothing about Greyhawk. What makes it so special?
Well, for one thing, its where some of the most iconic elements of Dungeons & Dragons got their start (not all of them, mind you, but many of them). Despite claims to the contrary, its not a "typical fantasy world" and its certainly not the same as Forgotten Realms. It was designed from the beginning to not have an over-arcing MetaPlot that hamstrung DMs (that is until it was mangled by the post-Gygax TSR where they crammed The Greyhawk Wars down everyone's throats and put a metaplot in place).
Its a Swords & Sorcery setting (humanocentric) with a dash of High Fantasy (Tolkien-like fantasy races, and a "Dark Lord" in the form of the cambion demigod Iuz the Old) and Cosmic Horror (lots a Lovecraftian stuff: insane cults, Deep Ones analogues, etc). Its kind of a gonzo kitchen-sink setting as well: its got Fun-House type dungeon crawls (Castle Greyhawk, White Plume Mountain), mini campaigns (B1 In Search of the Unknown/B2 Keep on the Borderlands, The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth/The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun ), full-on campaigns (The Temple of Elemental Evil -> Scourge of the Slavelords -> Against the Giants, Descent into the Depths, Queen of the Demonweb Pits), crashed spaceships as "dungeon crawls" (Expedition to the Barrier Peaks) and so on.
Its a setting that is Post-Apocalyptic world where humanity is struggling to push back the darkness. Quite literally, outside of the major cities/settlements, its a howling wilderness of darkness full of not just humanoid monsters but human ones too (bandits made up of broken armies of whatever petty kingdoms/fiefdoms sprang up and were promptly squashed). Someone described it better than me as a sort of cross between 5th-8th Century Anglo-Saxon Britain (so not actualy Feudalism) with the aftermath of the horrors of The Black Death and The Hundred Years War in the 14th Century (basically, when Europe lost somewhere above 60% of its population).
Since the rules have changed in the intervening decades, it would need to bring back the Domain Play (Domain as in "Rule a stretch of land'), making it very similar to Pathfinder's Kingmaker. That's partially why the map wasn't full of cities/settlements in every single hex as the population density of most of the Flanaess was somewhere between modern Wyoming and Alaska (as in there is a TON of wilderness out there). There isn't so much a Good vs Evil struggle as a Law vs Chaos, with the "prime movers" (Mordenkainen, etc) trying for Balance between the powers (probably to keep humanity from being wiped off the map). In fact, in this regard its the polar opposite of Forgotten Realms: even when you're tasked with stopping some menace (the giants raiding from the Jotens or the Slavers of the Pomarj) or recovering something (Daoud's Wondrous Lanthorn, The Crook of Rao) its more to DENY the enemy a strategic victory. And as a PC you're the one doing it, not simply being sent on some side mission while "the real heroes" (aka Elminster, Drizzt etc) do the actual job. While it can kinda make some PCs like Murder Hobos (as your primary motivation will likely be gold, magical items and glory) you should have an actual impact on the plot of the story (unless your DM is a complete choad). And the reason you need all that money is to eventually get to the point where you go out to carve out a fiefdom for yourself, complete with small fortress and garrison so you can attract settlers to make a town to generate income.
To give modern comparisons, Greyhawk is kind of like the world of The Witcher and A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones in many ways. The Old Faith of Greyhawk is in many ways similar to the Old Gods of Westeros. The cult of R'hollor is kinda like the Blinding Light of Pholtus practiced by The Theocracy of the Pale. The Brotherhood without Banners (especially in A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons) is the model for a dispersed army formation turned to banditry found in Greyhawk.
Most of all, Greyhawk is a setting the DM is supposed to make his own.
Fascinating. I still prefer Dragonlance or Ravenloft, but it sounds like a cool setting. Definitely different than Forgotten Realms. For the record, I don’t own SCAG, but I looked thru it in Barnes and Noble one time and I defo liked it.
I think it would be smart for the development team to GO BACK to the 1980 Folio/1983 Box Set as the basis for a revamp and abandon much of the post-Gygax Flanaess from 2E onward. In other words, reset the timeline BACK to CY576.
As the Mandalorian says, "This is the way".
I would love for this to happen. No time-jumps, no fast-forwards, just good old-fashioned Greyhawk, but for 5E. Update the rules, but not the setting. When I started 5E, it was set in the Forgotten Realms, but in the age of 3E. I do not like what was done with the timeline in 4E and 5E. Other than Mystara with the basic/expert sets, Greyhawk was really my first large D&D world back in 1983.
one thing about it i have the ghosts of saltmarsh book and it takes place in greyhawk
Specifically it takes place in southern Keoland, not that terribly far from The Hool Marshes. The Sheldomar Valley is a fun place with lots of classic AD&D adventures in it:
- B2: Keep on the Borderlands is supposed to be near the Jewel River either in The Principality of Ulek or just over the border in The Pomarj, and likely near to The Suss Forest according to Gygax (no clue why Return to the Keep on the Borderlands set it in The Yeomanry, also in The Sheldomar Valley, as it doesn't fit in any way the descriptions for the place). - A0: Danger at Darkshelf Quarry/A1: Slave Pits of the Undercity/A2: Secret of the Slaver's Stockade/A3: Aerie of the Slave Lords/A4: In the Dungeons of the Slave Lords (collected as Scourge of the Slave Lords) and Lowdown in Highport and The Last Slave Lord all take place along The Wild Coast and in The Pomarj (which is technically part of the greater Sheldomar Valley). - G1-3: Against the Giants/D1-2 Descent into the Depths of the Earth/D3: Vault of the Drow (collected as GDQ-1-7 Queen of the Spiders) and Against the Giants: The Liberation of Geoff all take place around The Grand Duchy of Geoff and the Earldom of Sterich - N1: The Cult of the Reptile God takes place in The Gran March - I2: Tomb of the Lizard King and I7: Baltron's Beacon were retroactively placed in The Hool Marshes in Keoland (originally they were just a generic setting) - U1: The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh/U2: Danger at Dunwater/U3: The Final Enemy all take place in southern Keoland. - UK1: Beyond the Crystal Cave technically takes place in The Sheldomar Valley since its in Jeklea Bay, just a mile from off the southern coast of Fairwind Isle
one thing about it i have the ghosts of saltmarsh book and it takes place in greyhawk
Specifically it takes place in southern Keoland, not that terribly far from The Hool Marshes. The Sheldomar Valley is a fun place with lots of classic AD&D adventures in it:
- B2: Keep on the Borderlands is supposed to be near the Jewel River either in The Principality of Ulek or just over the border in The Pomarj, and likely near to The Suss Forest according to Gygax (no clue why Return to the Keep on the Borderlands set it in The Yeomanry, also in The Sheldomar Valley, as it doesn't fit in any way the descriptions for the place). - A0: Danger at Darkshelf Quarry/A1: Slave Pits of the Undercity/A2: Secret of the Slaver's Stockade/A3: Aerie of the Slave Lords/A4: In the Dungeons of the Slave Lords (collected as Scourge of the Slave Lords) and Lowdown in Highport and The Last Slave Lord all take place along The Wild Coast and in The Pomarj (which is technically part of the greater Sheldomar Valley). - G1-3: Against the Giants/D1-2 Descent into the Depths of the Earth/D3: Vault of the Drow (collected as GDQ-1-7 Queen of the Spiders) and Against the Giants: The Liberation of Geoff all take place around The Grand Duchy of Geoff and the Earldom of Sterich - N1: The Cult of the Reptile God takes place in The Gran March - I2: Tomb of the Lizard King and I7: Baltron's Beacon were retroactively placed in The Hool Marshes in Keoland (originally they were just a generic setting) - U1: The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh/U2: Danger at Dunwater/U3: The Final Enemy all take place in southern Keoland. - UK1: Beyond the Crystal Cave technically takes place in The Sheldomar Valley since its in Jeklea Bay, just a mile from off the southern coast of Fairwind Isle
Fascinating. Once again idk all that. Thanks.
I’m beginning to get that Greyhawk has a very different feel than Forgotten Realms.
While I like the idea of Greyhawk, I don't really think it needs a setting book. From what I know of it (which is very little), it isn't very mechanically different than FR or Wildemount. That is, it has roughly the same species and subclasses. I would prefer something like Planescape to get a book first, because it is very mechanically different.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
While I like the idea of Greyhawk, I don't really think it needs a setting book.
It doesn't need a detailed setting book since that's the exact OPPOSITE of what the setting was intended for: a sandbox DMs could turn into their own. What it does need, however, is a hard reset BACK to Gygax's version. The World of Greyhawk is better as a setting if its grown through modules like those I listed. And more specifically, Greyhawk is better when the people writing it don't drek all over Gary's version for "reasons". Keeping the lore as it was written/stated during 1E (and Gygax left copious statements about it) is how you treat the setting with the respect it deserves. While almost no one could bring back true Gygaxian Greyhawk (since EGG is dead and his sons Ernie & Luke aren't involved with WotC), it at least stands to reason that the WotC could be more respectful of the setting than it has in the past.
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I think it would be smart for the development team to GO BACK to the 1980 Folio/1983 Box Set as the basis for a revamp and abandon much of the post-Gygax Flanaess from 2E onward. In other words, reset the timeline BACK to CY576. This would allow for incorporation of more "Classic Greyhawk Modules" being updated for 5E play. Since we are talking about D&D and there are all kinds of ways to do this, I think a relatively hard reset should be done. Who is to say that Greyhawk doesn't suffer from a great and powerful Time spell gone awry (think something on the level of The Invoked Devastation/The Rain of Colorless Fire) that's unleashed by The Circle of Eight in an effort to restore the balance destroyed in The Greyhawk Wars.
Most of what made Greyhawk special (for those of us who grew up with it) was basically tossed in the incinerator with The Greyhawk Wars & From the Ashes in 2E AD&D only to have the burned manuscript be blowtorched with The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer in 3E. What had been a post-apocalyptic Swords & Sorcery setting where humans make up 90% of the population (and the PCs are basically mercenary adventurers out to get gold instead of servants/flunkies for some "high powered munchkin of the week" *cough*Elminster*cough*) with a dash of High Fantasy (sure, there is the Sauron-like Iuz the Old running around and Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Orcs, Goblins, Hobgoblins, etc) set on a continent teetering closer and closer mass extinction (it literally is the "Points of Light" idea where there is a howling wilderness outside of the few places left with civilization) became something entirely different. Yet somehow most of nations had their population sizes increase two, three or even more times in size. For example, 1980 Folio/1983 Box Set Kingdom of Keoland went from a population of 300,000 to 1,800,000 in the 3E Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (and this is not an isolated example). This literally makes no sense as the continent had supposedly suffered a massive war that upset everything, including wiping out several nations as Iuz the Old steamrolled everyone in his path. Doing this roll back brings it back to its roots, making it more like the world of A Song of Ice & Fire (Game of Thrones for you Tv only fans) and The Witcher.
And yea, Tharizdun is NOT The Elder Elemental God. Tharizdun is an interloper god that is so much more powerful than the EEG. Think the difference between Azathoth (Tharizdun) vs Cthulhu (EEG). There is also the fact the EEG's name doesn't refer to the Classical Elements (Earth, Water, Air, Fire) but Elemental as in Primordial.
Greyhawk doesn't really provide anything that Forgotten Realms doesn't already provide, short of the lore which is inconsistent at best. I wouldn't want to see dev cycles wasted on Greyhawk that can, and imo, should be used in more unique content such as planescape.
I say that as a fan of traditional, high fantasy settings such as Greyhawk and Forgotten realms. I am a big Dragonlance fan, and don't wish to see them return to Krynn either. Dragonlance and Greyhawk simply don't add anythign we NEED. Let's give the people who want the weird stuff what the want.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I mean the point of official releases is to appeal to the most amount of people and they have already released a lot of "weird stuff" lately with the MtG settings. Eberron is also "weird" compared to other high fantasy settings. Throw in the Acq Inc book and Wildemount and it could be argued that a large portion of their setting books have been catering to the "weird" or to specific fanbases. Sure the adventures are all set in FR but even FR doesn't have a good setting book, SCAG being widely considered one of the worst releases. Throwing in Greyhawk or Dragonlance or even a solid FR book feels necessary for those of us who don't want the "weird".
Oh I understand you. I hate that weird crap. I don't want it at all, personally. But, a lot of folks do.
FR doesn't have a campaign guide by design. They want it to be as nebulous as possible. They want as little locked into canon as possible. The reason why, is so that DMs feel more free to make the world their own. FR lore is the whole reason why I LIKE the realms, so I'm not keen on their plan, but I get it.
If you're looking for something good though, check out "The Border Kingdoms" in DMs guild. It's written by Ed Greenwood so its as canon as you can be without being from WOTC for FR, and there's a lot of good stuff in there. I have the PDF and the hardcover, the hardcover is very well done and professional. It's just lore and details, but it's very well done. No mechanics in there at all.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Well that's patently untrue. Greyhawk is VERY different from Forgotten Realms. For one thing, its a setting where there are vast wide open spaces on the maps EVERYWHERE. Its a continent with a human population density similar to Alaska (with a demi-human population even lower). You're supposed to adventure for a while and then carve out your own feudal fiefdom, etc. As I said, its literally a howling wilderness of darkness outside the few points of light keeping the flames of civilization alight. There are bandits everywhere. Humanoids raid towns and cults of Evil Chaos are all over the place when you get right down to it. The setting is more pulpy and less High Fantasy (let alone Heroic Fantasy like DragonLance).
The closest analogue to Greyhawk is probably Paizo's Kingmaker.
“Humankind is fragmented into isolationist realms, indifferent nations, evil lands, and states striving for good...Nomads, bandits, and barbarians raid southwards every spring and summer. Humanoid enclaves are strongly established and scattered throughout the continent, and wicked insanity rules in the Great Kingdom.” - World of Greyhawk (folio)
I like Dragonlance (my friend calls it soap opera fantasy lol) and Forgotten Realms (High fantasy), but I know nothing about Greyhawk. What makes it so special?
Well, for one thing, its where some of the most iconic elements of Dungeons & Dragons got their start (not all of them, mind you, but many of them). Despite claims to the contrary, its not a "typical fantasy world" and its certainly not the same as Forgotten Realms. It was designed from the beginning to not have an over-arcing MetaPlot that hamstrung DMs (that is until it was mangled by the post-Gygax TSR where they crammed The Greyhawk Wars down everyone's throats and put a metaplot in place).
Its a Swords & Sorcery setting (humanocentric) with a dash of High Fantasy (Tolkien-like fantasy races, and a "Dark Lord" in the form of the cambion demigod Iuz the Old) and Cosmic Horror (lots a Lovecraftian stuff: insane cults, Deep Ones analogues, etc). Its kind of a gonzo kitchen-sink setting as well: its got Fun-House type dungeon crawls (Castle Greyhawk, White Plume Mountain), mini campaigns (B1 In Search of the Unknown/B2 Keep on the Borderlands, The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth/The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun ), full-on campaigns (The Temple of Elemental Evil -> Scourge of the Slavelords -> Against the Giants, Descent into the Depths, Queen of the Demonweb Pits), crashed spaceships as "dungeon crawls" (Expedition to the Barrier Peaks) and so on.
Its a setting that is Post-Apocalyptic world where humanity is struggling to push back the darkness. Quite literally, outside of the major cities/settlements, its a howling wilderness of darkness full of not just humanoid monsters but human ones too (bandits made up of broken armies of whatever petty kingdoms/fiefdoms sprang up and were promptly squashed). Someone described it better than me as a sort of cross between 5th-8th Century Anglo-Saxon Britain (so not actualy Feudalism) with the aftermath of the horrors of The Black Death and The Hundred Years War in the 14th Century (basically, when Europe lost somewhere above 60% of its population).
Since the rules have changed in the intervening decades, it would need to bring back the Domain Play (Domain as in "Rule a stretch of land'), making it very similar to Pathfinder's Kingmaker. That's partially why the map wasn't full of cities/settlements in every single hex as the population density of most of the Flanaess was somewhere between modern Wyoming and Alaska (as in there is a TON of wilderness out there). There isn't so much a Good vs Evil struggle as a Law vs Chaos, with the "prime movers" (Mordenkainen, etc) trying for Balance between the powers (probably to keep humanity from being wiped off the map). In fact, in this regard its the polar opposite of Forgotten Realms: even when you're tasked with stopping some menace (the giants raiding from the Jotens or the Slavers of the Pomarj) or recovering something (Daoud's Wondrous Lanthorn, The Crook of Rao) its more to DENY the enemy a strategic victory. And as a PC you're the one doing it, not simply being sent on some side mission while "the real heroes" (aka Elminster, Drizzt etc) do the actual job. While it can kinda make some PCs like Murder Hobos (as your primary motivation will likely be gold, magical items and glory) you should have an actual impact on the plot of the story (unless your DM is a complete choad). And the reason you need all that money is to eventually get to the point where you go out to carve out a fiefdom for yourself, complete with small fortress and garrison so you can attract settlers to make a town to generate income.
To give modern comparisons, Greyhawk is kind of like the world of The Witcher and A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones in many ways. The Old Faith of Greyhawk is in many ways similar to the Old Gods of Westeros. The cult of R'hollor is kinda like the Blinding Light of Pholtus practiced by The Theocracy of the Pale. The Brotherhood without Banners (especially in A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons) is the model for a dispersed army formation turned to banditry found in Greyhawk.
Most of all, Greyhawk is a setting the DM is supposed to make his own.
Fascinating. I still prefer Dragonlance or Ravenloft, but it sounds like a cool setting. Definitely different than Forgotten Realms. For the record, I don’t own SCAG, but I looked thru it in Barnes and Noble one time and I defo liked it.
As the Mandalorian says, "This is the way".
I would love for this to happen. No time-jumps, no fast-forwards, just good old-fashioned Greyhawk, but for 5E. Update the rules, but not the setting. When I started 5E, it was set in the Forgotten Realms, but in the age of 3E. I do not like what was done with the timeline in 4E and 5E. Other than Mystara with the basic/expert sets, Greyhawk was really my first large D&D world back in 1983.
one thing about it i have the ghosts of saltmarsh book and it takes place in greyhawk
I am leader of the yep cult:https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/82135-yep-cult Pronouns are she/her
Specifically it takes place in southern Keoland, not that terribly far from The Hool Marshes. The Sheldomar Valley is a fun place with lots of classic AD&D adventures in it:
- B2: Keep on the Borderlands is supposed to be near the Jewel River either in The Principality of Ulek or just over the border in The Pomarj, and likely near to The Suss Forest according to Gygax (no clue why Return to the Keep on the Borderlands set it in The Yeomanry, also in The Sheldomar Valley, as it doesn't fit in any way the descriptions for the place).
- A0: Danger at Darkshelf Quarry/A1: Slave Pits of the Undercity/A2: Secret of the Slaver's Stockade/A3: Aerie of the Slave Lords/A4: In the Dungeons of the Slave Lords (collected as Scourge of the Slave Lords) and Lowdown in Highport and The Last Slave Lord all take place along The Wild Coast and in The Pomarj (which is technically part of the greater Sheldomar Valley).
- G1-3: Against the Giants/D1-2 Descent into the Depths of the Earth/D3: Vault of the Drow (collected as GDQ-1-7 Queen of the Spiders) and Against the Giants: The Liberation of Geoff all take place around The Grand Duchy of Geoff and the Earldom of Sterich
- N1: The Cult of the Reptile God takes place in The Gran March
- I2: Tomb of the Lizard King and I7: Baltron's Beacon were retroactively placed in The Hool Marshes in Keoland (originally they were just a generic setting)
- U1: The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh/U2: Danger at Dunwater/U3: The Final Enemy all take place in southern Keoland.
- UK1: Beyond the Crystal Cave technically takes place in The Sheldomar Valley since its in Jeklea Bay, just a mile from off the southern coast of Fairwind Isle
Fascinating. Once again idk all that. Thanks.
I’m beginning to get that Greyhawk has a very different feel than Forgotten Realms.
While I like the idea of Greyhawk, I don't really think it needs a setting book. From what I know of it (which is very little), it isn't very mechanically different than FR or Wildemount. That is, it has roughly the same species and subclasses. I would prefer something like Planescape to get a book first, because it is very mechanically different.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
It doesn't need a detailed setting book since that's the exact OPPOSITE of what the setting was intended for: a sandbox DMs could turn into their own. What it does need, however, is a hard reset BACK to Gygax's version. The World of Greyhawk is better as a setting if its grown through modules like those I listed. And more specifically, Greyhawk is better when the people writing it don't drek all over Gary's version for "reasons". Keeping the lore as it was written/stated during 1E (and Gygax left copious statements about it) is how you treat the setting with the respect it deserves. While almost no one could bring back true Gygaxian Greyhawk (since EGG is dead and his sons Ernie & Luke aren't involved with WotC), it at least stands to reason that the WotC could be more respectful of the setting than it has in the past.