I'll try to keep this as brief as possible. As the DM ikilled my first PC ever. I feel bad but at the same time he kept running after the bad guy when said bad guy was running away. The rogue kept using spells and Potions to bring the monk back followed by the monk getting up and steadily running after the bad guy to trip attack or regular attack. The bad guy knocked him out 3 times before he switched to knocking him out and stabbing an extra time to fail 2 death saves and repeatedly asking him to stop chasing him. After 2 rounds of this happening he got fed up knocked him down then stabbed him 2 more times killing him. That's 5 times I knocked him out so I don't feel it's unjustified.
The PC then had a brief cutscene of him in front of the demon he sold his soul 2, (I felt bad) and told the PC as the demon he could have one more chance if his fellow allies could find a way to res him that way he could finish the fulfillment of his contract.
This is where it gets complicated, they are only level 5 and can't cast reviving etc in my campaign I have the list of spellcasting services that can be bought including raise dead for a hefty fee that they can currently afford. One of my other players gets mad and is telling me it's bullshit that this can be done and gives no real meaning to PC "death" and is "threating" to just off himself repeatedly allowing the players to just pay to have him brought back to prove is meaning.
I've already told the monk (the dead PC) he can come back and the players already have this plan in place. Do I retcon and remove the spellcasting services to make it more of a problem? Do I let the player just off himself a bunch of times and keep it as normal? Do I just remove the pissed off player from the session? I'm at a loss as to what to do and our session is tomorrow!!!! Looking forward to the comments or suggestions thanks!
First off, the concept of character death is usually the kind of thing to discuss in a session 0. There's definitely a split in the community about whether or not characters should be able to die, and that's something to work out with your group. But since the ship has sailed on discussing this before it becomes an issue, I realize that isn't too helpful. So here goes with an actual answer.
Personally, I would not change any of the existing house rules about how easy or difficult it is to bring back a dead character. The character's actions should have consequences. if you bring him back at no cost, or change the rules because things got difficult, then there are no consequences. The character dies. There are the rules about how that works at your table, now its up to the players to figure out what's next within the context of those rules. If the rest of the party wants to mortgage the farm (or whatever) to get the monk raised, that's a choice they can make. If not, that's another choice they can make. Leave it up to them what they want to do. And as far as a hefty fee, that's a plot hook right there. "Well," says the cleric, "if you don't have the gold, you'll just have to do me a service instead."
You could let the player with the dead character roll up a short-time character so they have something to do while the party seeks out the raise dead. Or just hand wave/fast forward to the part where the rest of the party negotiates with the cleric. Then said cleric raises the monk, and the re-constituted party now goes off on whatever errand the cleric needs done.
Then, back to my original point. Maybe in a week or two, after people have cooled off, you have that out of character talk about character death, and get everyone on the same page..
Sheesh. What a mess. I feel like this should be a table discussion. Could be time for another session 0? You can talk about how the game will handle character death from now on, and maybe reset the game to just before the first character died.
I understand not wanting to kill a PC but the other player's concern about death not being serious is also valid.
First, I'd apologize to the players. While they might not be being at all kind about it, they have a right to be annoyed. Make it clear this was (in retrospect) a mistake, and it isn't something that'll happen again. Hopefully they show a little understanding: DMing is really hard, and besides it's just a game. If the upset player continues to be a jerk, then you'll have to think about whether he's a friend worth playing with. And make it clear that his "I'm gonna off myself" thing (a) won't work and (b) is just a rude thing to do, and just ruins the game for everyone else.
BUT, let the resurrection stand. It's not fair to the monk player if you don't (imagine the disappointment!), and besides, you'll be rewarding the upset player for being rude. Then he'll probably think it's okay to push you around, so you need to draw a hard line.
That said, I totally understand. Killing characters is a tough thing to do, and I've done the same thing as you in the past. Not to mention, both players in question were being idiots, and they put you in a bad situation. I hope everything works out for you and the group!
The problem with having the money to buy resurrections is, that the money buys the diamond the cleric had wisely stocked up on, as well as the service of the cleric. Here is your compromise. When the party brings the body of the monk to your cleric, there are already some wealthy customers being raised there and the cleric tells the group how lucky they are, he has one diamond left. From then one you make it clear to your party, that you decide when the next diamond arrives in the kingdom and you don't plan to reward stupidity again.
I'll try to keep this as brief as possible. As the DM ikilled my first PC ever. I feel bad but at the same time he kept running after the bad guy when said bad guy was running away. The rogue kept using spells and Potions to bring the monk back followed by the monk getting up and steadily running after the bad guy to trip attack or regular attack. The bad guy knocked him out 3 times before he switched to knocking him out and stabbing an extra time to fail 2 death saves and repeatedly asking him to stop chasing him. After 2 rounds of this happening he got fed up knocked him down then stabbed him 2 more times killing him. That's 5 times I knocked him out so I don't feel it's unjustified.
The PC then had a brief cutscene of him in front of the demon he sold his soul 2, (I felt bad) and told the PC as the demon he could have one more chance if his fellow allies could find a way to res him that way he could finish the fulfillment of his contract.
I may be reading a bit far into this but it sounds off to me. You outline what two of the party members are doing, but not the others. One PC is being what appears to be overzealous and the other is enabling/encouraging them to act recklessly but not directly involved in any risk. The rest of the party is just standing by and watching this happen? They are watching a companion get up, and *intentionally* run after the BBEG, and get handily defeated each time. Well, so.... Anyways....
This is where it gets complicated, they are only level 5 and can't cast reviving etc in my campaign I have the list of spellcasting services that can be bought including raise dead for a hefty fee that they can currently afford. One of my other players gets mad and is telling me it's bullshit that this can be done and gives no real meaning to PC "death" and is "threating" to just off himself repeatedly allowing the players to just pay to have him brought back to prove is meaning.
I've already told the monk (the dead PC) he can come back and the players already have this plan in place. Do I retcon and remove the spellcasting services to make it more of a problem? Do I let the player just off himself a bunch of times and keep it as normal? Do I just remove the pissed off player from the session? I'm at a loss as to what to do and our session is tomorrow!!!! Looking forward to the comments or suggestions thanks!
Players being mad and calling bullshit at a ruling or a house rule for your campaign means that their expectation did not match up to yours. As suggested a session 0 conversation could have helped this to not happen, you are still able to have a session 0.5 or session 0 pt.2. Probably should do this.
Players threatening to kill off their character to prove a point is being just plain meta. There's a hint at trying to control the table here simply on the grounds that they didn't get what they want. I would suggest a one-on-one conversation. Not so much a warning. You might let them know that their being annoyed at the situation is understandable, but metagaming and tantrum-like outbursts are unwelcome.
Spellcasting services for level 1 spells may have a cost associated with them. Higher level services might come at a steeper price. Like the need to complete a quest or procure the rare component for the spell. I can agree with your disgruntled player on this point. The DM decides how much gold to throw around, you decide the price of spellcasting services. This means that you decide if the PCs can be resurrected.
Giving a PC plot armor is not necessarily the best idea ever. Ever. No, the storyline that you had planned for the PC is not that important. The Demon made the deal to get the PCs soul upon their death. Why would the Demon wait another day? Said Demon would probably manipulate the environment around said person to hasten the closure of the contract. I don't see them acting with pity and remorse towards a marked soul. This is most likely where your problem lies.
Once you speak it into existence, it exists in your world. We have to be mindful of the things that we put into our game world because they should always have consequences. Choice without consequence is not a choice, there is no difference between good/bad or right/wrong. Consequence gives these things worth. My suggestion, have a private conversation with the Monk Player. This is gonna be tough. Tell them that you made a mistake and shouldn't have offered to allow their PC to come back, because that was the deal that they made with their backstory. Hold them to it. Hold yourself to it. If you find yourself unable to stick to the story that you and your players are engaged in, you'll discover that they don't have a say in what their PCs do. Any action that they take will be waved away by the mighty DM, because it doesn't fit with what you want.
Being a leader doesn't mean making the popular decision, it means that you make the tough one. Being a DM is being the leader of your table. You're gonna make mistakes, everyone will if they haven't already. <hops off soapbox>
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I'll try to keep this as brief as possible. As the DM ikilled my first PC ever. I feel bad but at the same time he kept running after the bad guy when said bad guy was running away. The rogue kept using spells and Potions to bring the monk back followed by the monk getting up and steadily running after the bad guy to trip attack or regular attack. The bad guy knocked him out 3 times before he switched to knocking him out and stabbing an extra time to fail 2 death saves and repeatedly asking him to stop chasing him. After 2 rounds of this happening he got fed up knocked him down then stabbed him 2 more times killing him. That's 5 times I knocked him out so I don't feel it's unjustified.
The PC then had a brief cutscene of him in front of the demon he sold his soul 2, (I felt bad) and told the PC as the demon he could have one more chance if his fellow allies could find a way to res him that way he could finish the fulfillment of his contract.
All of this is fine. It's your game. You can do whatever you want as DM.
This is where it gets complicated, they are only level 5 and can't cast reviving etc in my campaign I have the list of spellcasting services that can be bought including raise dead for a hefty fee that they can currently afford. One of my other players gets mad and is telling me it's bullshit that this can be done and gives no real meaning to PC "death" and is "threating" to just off himself repeatedly allowing the players to just pay to have him brought back to prove is meaning.
I've already told the monk (the dead PC) he can come back and the players already have this plan in place. Do I retcon and remove the spellcasting services to make it more of a problem? Do I let the player just off himself a bunch of times and keep it as normal? Do I just remove the pissed off player from the session? I'm at a loss as to what to do and our session is tomorrow!!!! Looking forward to the comments or suggestions thanks!
This is not fine.
Tell the player who is getting aggro that if he doesn't like the way that you DM the game, that's up to him and he doesn't have to play. He can find a new game. Threatening absurd behaviour like this is attempting to control the DM, and can't be allowed.
Having said that, what was the ruling before? Was it that the characters were effectively told "No resurrections" and then you changed the house rule? If so, then that's messing with player expectations, and shouldn't be done. It's a mistake. Discuss it with the two players and retcon if needed.
If you did previously forbid resurrection of any kind, then it shouldn't be allowed to happen. If you had never made that ruling, stick to the chance to resurrect.
Okay I didn’t read all the responses but my initial reactions:
- I don’t think you need to have another session 0. It should be plain that death can occur. - resurrection is fine but after the first one, consider flavoring it with a roll on the resurrector’s part. Maybe coming back with a defect or something. - actions have consequences. Mistakes can be made but that’s not what this was. This was a willful action despite all the warnings on your part. - guy who says it cheapens death is right, to an extent. See above. More than 1 resurrection could have consequences for the PC and the NPC or PC doing it.
DnD by its nature is a game that allows death and resurrection. Compared to many other roleplay systems it is relatively soft, for comparison. In Legend of the 5 rings, the published intro adventure could potentially see a character successfully compete the adventure and then, to save family face, have to kill themselves (Sepuuku).
Players die and at mid levels spells are regularly available to bring them back, at low levels I ensure there are NPCs available to bring back dead characters if they want to, but there isn’t a price list of stuff. Characters need to find the skilled NPC and there is usually a favour required to be done before or after.
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HELP
I'll try to keep this as brief as possible. As the DM ikilled my first PC ever. I feel bad but at the same time he kept running after the bad guy when said bad guy was running away. The rogue kept using spells and Potions to bring the monk back followed by the monk getting up and steadily running after the bad guy to trip attack or regular attack. The bad guy knocked him out 3 times before he switched to knocking him out and stabbing an extra time to fail 2 death saves and repeatedly asking him to stop chasing him. After 2 rounds of this happening he got fed up knocked him down then stabbed him 2 more times killing him. That's 5 times I knocked him out so I don't feel it's unjustified.
The PC then had a brief cutscene of him in front of the demon he sold his soul 2, (I felt bad) and told the PC as the demon he could have one more chance if his fellow allies could find a way to res him that way he could finish the fulfillment of his contract.
This is where it gets complicated, they are only level 5 and can't cast reviving etc in my campaign I have the list of spellcasting services that can be bought including raise dead for a hefty fee that they can currently afford. One of my other players gets mad and is telling me it's bullshit that this can be done and gives no real meaning to PC "death" and is "threating" to just off himself repeatedly allowing the players to just pay to have him brought back to prove is meaning.
I've already told the monk (the dead PC) he can come back and the players already have this plan in place. Do I retcon and remove the spellcasting services to make it more of a problem? Do I let the player just off himself a bunch of times and keep it as normal? Do I just remove the pissed off player from the session? I'm at a loss as to what to do and our session is tomorrow!!!! Looking forward to the comments or suggestions thanks!
First off, the concept of character death is usually the kind of thing to discuss in a session 0. There's definitely a split in the community about whether or not characters should be able to die, and that's something to work out with your group. But since the ship has sailed on discussing this before it becomes an issue, I realize that isn't too helpful. So here goes with an actual answer.
Personally, I would not change any of the existing house rules about how easy or difficult it is to bring back a dead character. The character's actions should have consequences. if you bring him back at no cost, or change the rules because things got difficult, then there are no consequences. The character dies. There are the rules about how that works at your table, now its up to the players to figure out what's next within the context of those rules. If the rest of the party wants to mortgage the farm (or whatever) to get the monk raised, that's a choice they can make. If not, that's another choice they can make. Leave it up to them what they want to do. And as far as a hefty fee, that's a plot hook right there. "Well," says the cleric, "if you don't have the gold, you'll just have to do me a service instead."
You could let the player with the dead character roll up a short-time character so they have something to do while the party seeks out the raise dead. Or just hand wave/fast forward to the part where the rest of the party negotiates with the cleric. Then said cleric raises the monk, and the re-constituted party now goes off on whatever errand the cleric needs done.
Then, back to my original point. Maybe in a week or two, after people have cooled off, you have that out of character talk about character death, and get everyone on the same page..
Sheesh. What a mess. I feel like this should be a table discussion. Could be time for another session 0? You can talk about how the game will handle character death from now on, and maybe reset the game to just before the first character died.
I understand not wanting to kill a PC but the other player's concern about death not being serious is also valid.
Anyway, let us know how it goes?
First, I'd apologize to the players. While they might not be being at all kind about it, they have a right to be annoyed. Make it clear this was (in retrospect) a mistake, and it isn't something that'll happen again. Hopefully they show a little understanding: DMing is really hard, and besides it's just a game. If the upset player continues to be a jerk, then you'll have to think about whether he's a friend worth playing with. And make it clear that his "I'm gonna off myself" thing (a) won't work and (b) is just a rude thing to do, and just ruins the game for everyone else.
BUT, let the resurrection stand. It's not fair to the monk player if you don't (imagine the disappointment!), and besides, you'll be rewarding the upset player for being rude. Then he'll probably think it's okay to push you around, so you need to draw a hard line.
That said, I totally understand. Killing characters is a tough thing to do, and I've done the same thing as you in the past. Not to mention, both players in question were being idiots, and they put you in a bad situation. I hope everything works out for you and the group!
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
The problem with having the money to buy resurrections is, that the money buys the diamond the cleric had wisely stocked up on, as well as the service of the cleric. Here is your compromise. When the party brings the body of the monk to your cleric, there are already some wealthy customers being raised there and the cleric tells the group how lucky they are, he has one diamond left. From then one you make it clear to your party, that you decide when the next diamond arrives in the kingdom and you don't plan to reward stupidity again.
I may be reading a bit far into this but it sounds off to me. You outline what two of the party members are doing, but not the others. One PC is being what appears to be overzealous and the other is enabling/encouraging them to act recklessly but not directly involved in any risk. The rest of the party is just standing by and watching this happen? They are watching a companion get up, and *intentionally* run after the BBEG, and get handily defeated each time. Well, so.... Anyways....
Players being mad and calling bullshit at a ruling or a house rule for your campaign means that their expectation did not match up to yours. As suggested a session 0 conversation could have helped this to not happen, you are still able to have a session 0.5 or session 0 pt.2. Probably should do this.
Players threatening to kill off their character to prove a point is being just plain meta. There's a hint at trying to control the table here simply on the grounds that they didn't get what they want. I would suggest a one-on-one conversation. Not so much a warning. You might let them know that their being annoyed at the situation is understandable, but metagaming and tantrum-like outbursts are unwelcome.
Spellcasting services for level 1 spells may have a cost associated with them. Higher level services might come at a steeper price. Like the need to complete a quest or procure the rare component for the spell. I can agree with your disgruntled player on this point. The DM decides how much gold to throw around, you decide the price of spellcasting services. This means that you decide if the PCs can be resurrected.
Giving a PC plot armor is not necessarily the best idea ever. Ever. No, the storyline that you had planned for the PC is not that important. The Demon made the deal to get the PCs soul upon their death. Why would the Demon wait another day? Said Demon would probably manipulate the environment around said person to hasten the closure of the contract. I don't see them acting with pity and remorse towards a marked soul. This is most likely where your problem lies.
Once you speak it into existence, it exists in your world. We have to be mindful of the things that we put into our game world because they should always have consequences. Choice without consequence is not a choice, there is no difference between good/bad or right/wrong. Consequence gives these things worth. My suggestion, have a private conversation with the Monk Player. This is gonna be tough. Tell them that you made a mistake and shouldn't have offered to allow their PC to come back, because that was the deal that they made with their backstory. Hold them to it. Hold yourself to it. If you find yourself unable to stick to the story that you and your players are engaged in, you'll discover that they don't have a say in what their PCs do. Any action that they take will be waved away by the mighty DM, because it doesn't fit with what you want.
Being a leader doesn't mean making the popular decision, it means that you make the tough one. Being a DM is being the leader of your table. You're gonna make mistakes, everyone will if they haven't already. <hops off soapbox>
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
All of this is fine. It's your game. You can do whatever you want as DM.
This is not fine.
Tell the player who is getting aggro that if he doesn't like the way that you DM the game, that's up to him and he doesn't have to play. He can find a new game. Threatening absurd behaviour like this is attempting to control the DM, and can't be allowed.
Having said that, what was the ruling before? Was it that the characters were effectively told "No resurrections" and then you changed the house rule? If so, then that's messing with player expectations, and shouldn't be done. It's a mistake. Discuss it with the two players and retcon if needed.
If you did previously forbid resurrection of any kind, then it shouldn't be allowed to happen. If you had never made that ruling, stick to the chance to resurrect.
Okay I didn’t read all the responses but my initial reactions:
- I don’t think you need to have another session 0. It should be plain that death can occur.
- resurrection is fine but after the first one, consider flavoring it with a roll on the resurrector’s part. Maybe coming back with a defect or something.
- actions have consequences. Mistakes can be made but that’s not what this was. This was a willful action despite all the warnings on your part.
- guy who says it cheapens death is right, to an extent. See above. More than 1 resurrection could have consequences for the PC and the NPC or PC doing it.
DM - And In The Darkness, Rot: The Sunless Citadel
DM - Our Little Lives Kept In Equipoise: Curse of Strahd
DM - Misprize Thou Not These Shadows That Belong: The Lost Mines of Phandelver
PC - Azzure - Tyranny of Dragons
DnD by its nature is a game that allows death and resurrection. Compared to many other roleplay systems it is relatively soft, for comparison. In Legend of the 5 rings, the published intro adventure could potentially see a character successfully compete the adventure and then, to save family face, have to kill themselves (Sepuuku).
Players die and at mid levels spells are regularly available to bring them back, at low levels I ensure there are NPCs available to bring back dead characters if they want to, but there isn’t a price list of stuff. Characters need to find the skilled NPC and there is usually a favour required to be done before or after.