New DM here and has a question about monsters perceiving party members. Is there a mechanic to determine if an NPC (in this case a monster) has become aware of a party member if the group is not actively trying to be stealthy. An example would be a goblin that is ransacking a room and a character walks in, not knowing the goblin is there. The character is not sneaking into the room, but at the same time the goblin is distracted as it is searching for goodies and not actively waiting to ambush anyone that comes into the room and in theory could not realize the player has entered.
No formal mechanism that I am aware of, but the game is designed to be flexible. Personally, I would still roll stealth to determine how silently the party member is able to enter and consider it more of a "how much noise is the party member passively making" roll. People that aren't actively trying to be stealthy can still end up not being noticed - like when you end up with someone spooking you at a supermarket because they're right behind you and you didn't even know they were approaching because you were focusing on looking for an item on your shopping list. Maybe even ask your player to roll stealth with disadvantage because they're not actively trying to be stealthy, and then contrast it with the NPC's passive perception (with a -5 to the NPC's passive perception because they're distracted too).
You could try passive stealth- 10+ skill modifier versus passive perception. If that seems too high, you could subtract 5 like if the character has disadvantage because they’re not trying.
New DM here and has a question about monsters perceiving party members. Is there a mechanic to determine if an NPC (in this case a monster) has become aware of a party member if the group is not actively trying to be stealthy. An example would be a goblin that is ransacking a room and a character walks in, not knowing the goblin is there. The character is not sneaking into the room, but at the same time the goblin is distracted as it is searching for goodies and not actively waiting to ambush anyone that comes into the room and in theory could not realize the player has entered.
The general rule is that creatures automatically notice each other if neither of them tries to be stealthy.
Hiding normally requires an action. A Passive check can also be used to represent the average result for a task done repeatedly or when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice.
A DM could always decide that a creature is too distracted to notice another, or use an active or passive Stealth vs Perception contest to randomly determine it.
Surprise: If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other
Is there a mechanic to determine if an NPC (in this case a monster) has become aware of a party member if the group is not actively trying to be stealthy.
Yep, there is - the person behind the GM screen. :-)
Just rule on the situation as appropriate to the situation.
For example, I have on occasion been so focused on searching a desk for things that my boss had to physically walk into the room and tap me on the shoulder (almost causing me to wet myself in fright).
So, is the creature that focused on its search? What is it looking for? How important is the object? The answers to these questions will determine the ruling.
New DM here and has a question about monsters perceiving party members. Is there a mechanic to determine if an NPC (in this case a monster) has become aware of a party member if the group is not actively trying to be stealthy. An example would be a goblin that is ransacking a room and a character walks in, not knowing the goblin is there. The character is not sneaking into the room, but at the same time the goblin is distracted as it is searching for goodies and not actively waiting to ambush anyone that comes into the room and in theory could not realize the player has entered.
The general rule is that creatures automatically notice each other if neither of them tries to be stealthy.
Hiding normally requires an action. A Passive check can also be used to represent the average result for a task done repeatedly or when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice.
A DM could always decide that a creature is too distracted to notice another, or use an active or passive Stealth vs Perception contest to randomly determine it.
Surprise: If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other
Note that this is specifically in order to determine surprise for the purpose of combat. It doesn't necessarily apply in non-combat situations. The players might walk into the room, see the goblin, and decide to walk back out. The Surprise rules don't say how this should be handled.
Note that this is specifically in order to determine surprise for the purpose of combat. It doesn't necessarily apply in non-combat situations. The players might walk into the room, see the goblin, and decide to walk back out. The Surprise rules don't say how this should be handled.
These rules are in the combat section yes, but noticing creatures is essentially the same during exploration. For the last pillar, it's rare you have a social interaction with creatures you would have not yet noticed ☺
Noticing Other Creatures: While exploring, characters might encounter other creatures. An important question in such a situation is who notices whom. Indoors, whether the sides can see one another usually depends on the configuration of rooms and passageways. Vision might also be limited by light sources. Outdoor visibility can be hampered by terrain, weather, and time of day. Creatures can be more likely to hear one another before they see anything. If neither side is being stealthy, creatures automatically notice each other once they are within sight or hearing range of one another. Otherwise, compare the Dexterity (Stealth) check results of the creatures in the group that is hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the other group, as explained in the Player's Handbook.
Note that this is specifically in order to determine surprise for the purpose of combat. It doesn't necessarily apply in non-combat situations. The players might walk into the room, see the goblin, and decide to walk back out. The Surprise rules don't say how this should be handled.
These rules are in the combat section yes, but noticing creatures is essentially the same during exploration. For the last pillar, it's rare you have a social interaction with creatures you would have not yet noticed ☺
Noticing Other Creatures: While exploring, characters might encounter other creatures. An important question in such a situation is who notices whom. Indoors, whether the sides can see one another usually depends on the configuration of rooms and passageways. Vision might also be limited by light sources. Outdoor visibility can be hampered by terrain, weather, and time of day. Creatures can be more likely to hear one another before they see anything. If neither side is being stealthy, creatures automatically notice each other once they are within sight or hearing range of one another. Otherwise, compare the Dexterity (Stealth) check results of the creatures in the group that is hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the other group, as explained in the Player's Handbook.
Good point! I had an argument about this on the rpg stackexchange once, where they told me the automatic noticing only applied to combat, and I believed them. Didn't know about the bit from the DMG you quoted!
You could try passive stealth- 10+ skill modifier versus passive perception. If that seems too high, you could subtract 5 like if the character has disadvantage because they’re not trying.
I am not saying this method is wrong, but I am saying I don't like the idea of using passive stealth for avoiding detection. If passive scores represent the average of something done repeatedly, your average stealth result might be fantastic, but you only need to mess up once and someone notices you. I can see maybe calling for a stealth ability check against a situational DC without necessarily making the character spend an action to do so.
You could try passive stealth- 10+ skill modifier versus passive perception. If that seems too high, you could subtract 5 like if the character has disadvantage because they’re not trying.
I am not saying this method is wrong, but I am saying I don't like the idea of using passive stealth for avoiding detection. If passive scores represent the average of something done repeatedly, your average stealth result might be fantastic, but you only need to mess up once and someone notices you. I can see maybe calling for a stealth ability check against a situational DC without necessarily making the character spend an action to do so.
Yeah, I agree that this is a problem with passive checks in general. How can they do worse then what they do when they aren’t trying?
Yeah, I agree that this is a problem with passive checks in general. How can they do worse then what they do when they aren’t trying?
In a Dragont Talk podcast, Jeremy Crawford once said that Passive Perception should be used as a threshold, serving as the minimum score an active Wisdom (Perception) check should give as a result.
Yeah, I agree that this is a problem with passive checks in general. How can they do worse then what they do when they aren’t trying?
In a Dragont Talk podcast, Jeremy Crawford once said that Passive Perception should be used as a threshold, serving as the minimum score an active Wisdom (Perception) check should give as a result.
The difference here is that with perception it only takes one good moment to make an overall success.
With stealth, it only takes one bad moment to make an overall failure. If anything, here the passive score should be the ceiling (but of course that would be cruel and game breaking)
The passive score should only be the floor for perception. If passive scores were the floor for all skill checks, the Rogue's "Reliable Talent" would be useless, as it does exactly that (but only for skills they are proficient in).
For stealth, you should measure an active stealth check against passive perception.
NEVER compare passive versus passive, though. That takes out randomness of the game and makes things deterministic. Someone with Dex + 1 should not automatically always succeed at hiding against someone with Wisdom +0...
I agree and personally, i'm not using that passive minimum threshold score for Perception or any other active checks. First, i only ask for a check when success is possible and the outcome is uncertain and that there is a meaningful consequence for failure. Most easy or time-free tasks therefore succeed without a roll. If a character can fail an ability check without consequence and can try again, he will eventually succeed. To speed things up, i assume that a character spending ten times the normal amount of time needed to complete a task automatically succeeds at that task. (DMG237)
When deciding whether to use a roll, ask yourself two questions: - Is a task so easy and so free of conflict and stress that there should be no chance of failure? - Is a task so inappropriate or impossible- such as hitting the moon with an arrow-that it can't work?
If the answer to both of these questions is no, some kind of roll is appropriate.
At my table i only use passive checks when i don't want to rely on any die rolls, mostly when i want to secretly determine success or failure of an outcome unbeknown to players or more rarely so to represent the average result for a task done repeatedly. Tasks done repeatedly, the first attempt will usualy be an active check, even the second so i almost never fall back on passive checks on such active tasks, only on tasks done effortlessly such as passive perception. And i'd certainly not use a sort of Take 10 on task i deem have uncertain outcome and meaningful consequence for failure, i will usually instead default to making an active check. Rolling dice feels more appropriate and also more fun!
No real wrong way to do this but my personal opinion is that if the party isn't being stealthy then the goblin just notices them as generally you have to actively be trying to stealth/hide for something to not notice you unless its unconscious.
Being unoticed is normally achieved through Stealth and surprised also relies on Stealth by default.
People often bring up being distracted to support not being noticed. The only reference in the rules about it is when you are already hidden though.
But a DM can always determine that a creature doesn't notice another due to being too distracted even though it's visible in plain view and not trying to be stealthy anyhow.
Stealth: However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen
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New DM here and has a question about monsters perceiving party members. Is there a mechanic to determine if an NPC (in this case a monster) has become aware of a party member if the group is not actively trying to be stealthy. An example would be a goblin that is ransacking a room and a character walks in, not knowing the goblin is there. The character is not sneaking into the room, but at the same time the goblin is distracted as it is searching for goodies and not actively waiting to ambush anyone that comes into the room and in theory could not realize the player has entered.
There is no formal mechanism, no.
No formal mechanism that I am aware of, but the game is designed to be flexible. Personally, I would still roll stealth to determine how silently the party member is able to enter and consider it more of a "how much noise is the party member passively making" roll. People that aren't actively trying to be stealthy can still end up not being noticed - like when you end up with someone spooking you at a supermarket because they're right behind you and you didn't even know they were approaching because you were focusing on looking for an item on your shopping list. Maybe even ask your player to roll stealth with disadvantage because they're not actively trying to be stealthy, and then contrast it with the NPC's passive perception (with a -5 to the NPC's passive perception because they're distracted too).
You could try passive stealth- 10+ skill modifier versus passive perception. If that seems too high, you could subtract 5 like if the character has disadvantage because they’re not trying.
Only spilt the party if you see something shiny.
Ariendela Sneakerson, Half-elf Rogue (8); Harmony Wolfsbane, Tiefling Bard (10); Agnomally, Gnomish Sorcerer (3); Breeze, Tabaxi Monk (8); Grace, Dragonborn Barbarian (7); DM, Homebrew- The Sequestered Lands/Underwater Explorers; Candlekeep
The general rule is that creatures automatically notice each other if neither of them tries to be stealthy.
Hiding normally requires an action. A Passive check can also be used to represent the average result for a task done repeatedly or when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice.
A DM could always decide that a creature is too distracted to notice another, or use an active or passive Stealth vs Perception contest to randomly determine it.
Yep, there is - the person behind the GM screen. :-)
Just rule on the situation as appropriate to the situation.
For example, I have on occasion been so focused on searching a desk for things that my boss had to physically walk into the room and tap me on the shoulder (almost causing me to wet myself in fright).
So, is the creature that focused on its search? What is it looking for? How important is the object? The answers to these questions will determine the ruling.
Note that this is specifically in order to determine surprise for the purpose of combat. It doesn't necessarily apply in non-combat situations. The players might walk into the room, see the goblin, and decide to walk back out. The Surprise rules don't say how this should be handled.
These rules are in the combat section yes, but noticing creatures is essentially the same during exploration. For the last pillar, it's rare you have a social interaction with creatures you would have not yet noticed ☺
Good point! I had an argument about this on the rpg stackexchange once, where they told me the automatic noticing only applied to combat, and I believed them. Didn't know about the bit from the DMG you quoted!
I am not saying this method is wrong, but I am saying I don't like the idea of using passive stealth for avoiding detection. If passive scores represent the average of something done repeatedly, your average stealth result might be fantastic, but you only need to mess up once and someone notices you. I can see maybe calling for a stealth ability check against a situational DC without necessarily making the character spend an action to do so.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yeah, I agree that this is a problem with passive checks in general. How can they do worse then what they do when they aren’t trying?
Only spilt the party if you see something shiny.
Ariendela Sneakerson, Half-elf Rogue (8); Harmony Wolfsbane, Tiefling Bard (10); Agnomally, Gnomish Sorcerer (3); Breeze, Tabaxi Monk (8); Grace, Dragonborn Barbarian (7); DM, Homebrew- The Sequestered Lands/Underwater Explorers; Candlekeep
The official DM Screen had a chart:
https://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/dungeon-masters-screen
Audible Distance
Trying to be quiet 2d6 × 5 feet
Normal noise level 2d6 × 10 feet
Very loud 2d6 × 50 feet
In a Dragont Talk podcast, Jeremy Crawford once said that Passive Perception should be used as a threshold, serving as the minimum score an active Wisdom (Perception) check should give as a result.
EDIT 24:15 https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/james-haeck-dd-writing
The difference here is that with perception it only takes one good moment to make an overall success.
With stealth, it only takes one bad moment to make an overall failure. If anything, here the passive score should be the ceiling (but of course that would be cruel and game breaking)
The passive score should only be the floor for perception. If passive scores were the floor for all skill checks, the Rogue's "Reliable Talent" would be useless, as it does exactly that (but only for skills they are proficient in).
For stealth, you should measure an active stealth check against passive perception.
NEVER compare passive versus passive, though. That takes out randomness of the game and makes things deterministic. Someone with Dex + 1 should not automatically always succeed at hiding against someone with Wisdom +0...
I agree and personally, i'm not using that passive minimum threshold score for Perception or any other active checks. First, i only ask for a check when success is possible and the outcome is uncertain and that there is a meaningful consequence for failure. Most easy or time-free tasks therefore succeed without a roll. If a character can fail an ability check without consequence and can try again, he will eventually succeed. To speed things up, i assume that a character spending ten times the normal amount of time needed to complete a task automatically succeeds at that task. (DMG237)
At my table i only use passive checks when i don't want to rely on any die rolls, mostly when i want to secretly determine success or failure of an outcome unbeknown to players or more rarely so to represent the average result for a task done repeatedly. Tasks done repeatedly, the first attempt will usualy be an active check, even the second so i almost never fall back on passive checks on such active tasks, only on tasks done effortlessly such as passive perception. And i'd certainly not use a sort of Take 10 on task i deem have uncertain outcome and meaningful consequence for failure, i will usually instead default to making an active check. Rolling dice feels more appropriate and also more fun!
No real wrong way to do this but my personal opinion is that if the party isn't being stealthy then the goblin just notices them as generally you have to actively be trying to stealth/hide for something to not notice you unless its unconscious.
Being unoticed is normally achieved through Stealth and surprised also relies on Stealth by default.
People often bring up being distracted to support not being noticed. The only reference in the rules about it is when you are already hidden though.
But a DM can always determine that a creature doesn't notice another due to being too distracted even though it's visible in plain view and not trying to be stealthy anyhow.
Perception can be tricky as we can often see in various attention test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGQmdoK_ZfY