I have a player who always questions me when I say I cast counter spell higher then 3rd level and accuses me of cheating (meta gaming). How would you handle it?
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‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
as a magic user, you can always argue how well versed you are with the properties of spell casting specific spells. especially if you've come across a spell before. now, if a wizard upcasts a fireball and you consistently cast counterspell at the same level, that's shady.
but if they cast disintegrate, and you can convince your DM that you are familiar with that spell in some way, then upcasting counterspell to meet the power of the spell, that's somewhat reasonable.
the DM may decide, you dont know this spell, you've never seen or felt this spell. You gotta guess what to cast counterspell at and potentially face a roll.
I’m the DM and we have a rule that you have to say you counter spell before you find out what spell it is (because of meta gaming). My group is also higher level (level 11), so I always have my npc’s start counter spell at 5th level (surprised they haven’t figured that out). But I’m still always questioned.
Edit: I rarely use counterspell, and typically start with 5th level counterspell (not always). And it’s my bbg’s (unferlings use standard counterspell).
I’m the DM and we have a rule that you have to say you counter spell before you find out what spell it is (because of meta gaming). My group is also higher level (level 11), so I always have my npc’s start counter spell at 5th level (surprised they haven’t figured that out). But I’m still always questioned.
First of all, there are casters who will be able to identify a spell as it's being cast, and those who can't, so I don't think mandating that everyone rolls blind is the solution.
But, more to the point, if you "always" have your NPCs start CS at maximum level, then you're going to be having that NPC burn a 5th level spell slot even if a player opens with a 1st level spell?
Well, if you do this frequently, I can understand why a player might feel like it's foul play. "DM always ruins our spells and never gives us a chance to succeed!" Even if it isn't true, people remember negative things more than positive things, so their perception can be skewed.
There's nothing more disappointing than having your whole turn wasted. Counterspell can feel like that on both sides of the DM screen. It has its uses, but it can do more harm than good to morale if it's overused.
Players want to feel like their actions matter. Bopping their cool spells down without even rolling for the bop can be demoralizing and frustrating if it constantly happens. And considering 5th level is nearly as powerful as the players' spells can get, you are pretty much always going to put the players in a position where they expend their resources for what feels like nothing, and without a hope of succeeding. "At least I made him use a spell slot" is about as poor a consolation prize as "at least I made him burn a legendary resistance."
I recommend that you start making baddies roll for Counterspell. It will add an element of unpredictability to the game and, more importantly, give the players more chances to feel victorious in combat.
I would be temped to change how counterspell works to make the issue moot, because the spell is kind of bad game play anyway. For example, make it always require a check, and change the check from an ability score check to a spell level check (this is generally a reduction in power).
I’m the DM and we have a rule that you have to say you counter spell before you find out what spell it is (because of meta gaming). My group is also higher level (level 11), so I always have my npc’s start counter spell at 5th level (surprised they haven’t figured that out). But I’m still always questioned.
I'd question that as a player too. How often have any of your NPCs burned a 5th-level slot countering a cantrip?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
“I recommend that you start making baddies roll for Counterspell. It will add an element of unpredictability to the game and, more importantly, give the players more chances to feel victorious in combat”
I think I will try this, thanks.
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‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
My table isn't as strict on me as the DM. If I counterspell something the players just have to trust that it's a "fair" move that keeps the fight interesting. As the DM I don't have to roll or anything because that's how things work. I'm there to keep the story interesting not to simply be a mindless flowchart of If Then statements managing the AI of the monsters they're there to kill.
As the DM there is almost no way to be "fair" here because you always need more information than the players. There is nearly no way to keep the fight going smoothly without turning the whole "counterspell" thing into a "write down your spell and reveal it after I decide to counter spell or not". If the NPC is sharp enough to counterspell real spells and not cantrips then they're probably sharp enough to know how hard to cast them.
I'd talk to the players about what they want to see as a "more fair" system here since of what I'm coming up with right now require a lot of writing and revealing in the magic system which feels needlessly tiring.
I also rarely use counterspell, and should re-edit, I typically start with 5th level counterspell (not always). And it’s my bbg’s (unferlings use standard counterspell).
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‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
I’m the DM and we have a rule that you have to say you counter spell before you find out what spell it is (because of meta gaming). My group is also higher level (level 11), so I always have my npc’s start counter spell at 5th level (surprised they haven’t figured that out). But I’m still always questioned.
I'd question that as a player too. How often have any of your NPCs burned a 5th-level slot countering a cantrip?
Probably not very often. You can only counterspell the spells the PCs actually try to cast. Also, high level spellcasters are glass cannons, if you're only going to be in the battle for two rounds (after which you're either dead or it's time to run away) might as well use pretty high level slots.
I’ve been DM’ing for a couple of years and I’ve only used Counterspell once or twice. It is a great spell, but I don’t always use spell casters and my spell casters don’t always have it prepared so they can’t always use it.
My general feeling is that unless some effort is made to hide the spell being cast people generally have a decent idea of the power level. If they want to try and hide a spell they can roll a contested deception ( illusions assumed to contain some kind of deception) or use an ability like subtle spell. Alternatively I sometimes use creature specific rules for counter spell based on the enemy so that counter spell is more of a trait than a spell. Its easier for Cr calculation and deciding what to do in combat but it should also stop accusations of meta gaming because you decide the level of the counter spell and when it triggers before hand.
Here is an example for a fire dragon:
Fiery counterspell (3 day or use breath weapon)
The dragon can produce the effects of counterspell cast at 5th level when it is targeted a spell that deals cold damage or produces an effect that can be burned away with fire such as the web or a flammable object launched with catapult.
So that dragon always casts it at 5th level and with specific spells. It can do it 3 times or use it's breath weapon and can't stop spells like lightning bolt that wouldn't be effected by heat or fire; or spells that don't target them like healing and buffs.
To avoid the accusation of metagaming, use playing cards.
Whenever anyone casts a spell, they grab a number card matching the slot used, and hold it out face down. They say, "Casting a spell" (they don't say which spell) and slow count to five. If anyone wants to counterspell, they have that count of five to say "Counterspell." They then grab a card with the slot level used and hold it out face down. Both parties reveal their cards at the same time, and then roll an ability check if required. Finally, the caster reveals what spell it is. That's the point the counterspeller learns if they used a fifth level slot to counter a cantrip. :-)
I figure that casters use their biggest spells on the first round, since they can't guarantee surviving for long, so as a GM I have my casting foes counterspell anything and everything they can on the first round. My players have learnt to be sneaky and use only cantrips on the first round, which stops thjeir big spells being countered but also means they have to wait a round for the big effects. Choice and consequence is good.
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I have a player who always questions me when I say I cast counter spell higher then 3rd level and accuses me of cheating (meta gaming). How would you handle it?
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
as a magic user, you can always argue how well versed you are with the properties of spell casting specific spells. especially if you've come across a spell before. now, if a wizard upcasts a fireball and you consistently cast counterspell at the same level, that's shady.
but if they cast disintegrate, and you can convince your DM that you are familiar with that spell in some way, then upcasting counterspell to meet the power of the spell, that's somewhat reasonable.
the DM may decide, you dont know this spell, you've never seen or felt this spell. You gotta guess what to cast counterspell at and potentially face a roll.
I’m the DM and we have a rule that you have to say you counter spell before you find out what spell it is (because of meta gaming). My group is also higher level (level 11), so I always have my npc’s start counter spell at 5th level (surprised they haven’t figured that out). But I’m still always questioned.
Edit: I rarely use counterspell, and typically start with 5th level counterspell (not always). And it’s my bbg’s (unferlings use standard counterspell).
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
First of all, there are casters who will be able to identify a spell as it's being cast, and those who can't, so I don't think mandating that everyone rolls blind is the solution.
But, more to the point, if you "always" have your NPCs start CS at maximum level, then you're going to be having that NPC burn a 5th level spell slot even if a player opens with a 1st level spell?
Well, if you do this frequently, I can understand why a player might feel like it's foul play. "DM always ruins our spells and never gives us a chance to succeed!" Even if it isn't true, people remember negative things more than positive things, so their perception can be skewed.
There's nothing more disappointing than having your whole turn wasted. Counterspell can feel like that on both sides of the DM screen. It has its uses, but it can do more harm than good to morale if it's overused.
Players want to feel like their actions matter. Bopping their cool spells down without even rolling for the bop can be demoralizing and frustrating if it constantly happens. And considering 5th level is nearly as powerful as the players' spells can get, you are pretty much always going to put the players in a position where they expend their resources for what feels like nothing, and without a hope of succeeding. "At least I made him use a spell slot" is about as poor a consolation prize as "at least I made him burn a legendary resistance."
I recommend that you start making baddies roll for Counterspell. It will add an element of unpredictability to the game and, more importantly, give the players more chances to feel victorious in combat.
I would be temped to change how counterspell works to make the issue moot, because the spell is kind of bad game play anyway. For example, make it always require a check, and change the check from an ability score check to a spell level check (this is generally a reduction in power).
I'd question that as a player too. How often have any of your NPCs burned a 5th-level slot countering a cantrip?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
“I recommend that you start making baddies roll for Counterspell. It will add an element of unpredictability to the game and, more importantly, give the players more chances to feel victorious in combat”
I think I will try this, thanks.
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
My table isn't as strict on me as the DM. If I counterspell something the players just have to trust that it's a "fair" move that keeps the fight interesting. As the DM I don't have to roll or anything because that's how things work. I'm there to keep the story interesting not to simply be a mindless flowchart of If Then statements managing the AI of the monsters they're there to kill.
As the DM there is almost no way to be "fair" here because you always need more information than the players. There is nearly no way to keep the fight going smoothly without turning the whole "counterspell" thing into a "write down your spell and reveal it after I decide to counter spell or not". If the NPC is sharp enough to counterspell real spells and not cantrips then they're probably sharp enough to know how hard to cast them.
I'd talk to the players about what they want to see as a "more fair" system here since of what I'm coming up with right now require a lot of writing and revealing in the magic system which feels needlessly tiring.
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I also rarely use counterspell, and should re-edit, I typically start with 5th level counterspell (not always). And it’s my bbg’s (unferlings use standard counterspell).
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
Probably not very often. You can only counterspell the spells the PCs actually try to cast. Also, high level spellcasters are glass cannons, if you're only going to be in the battle for two rounds (after which you're either dead or it's time to run away) might as well use pretty high level slots.
I’ve been DM’ing for a couple of years and I’ve only used Counterspell once or twice. It is a great spell, but I don’t always use spell casters and my spell casters don’t always have it prepared so they can’t always use it.
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My general feeling is that unless some effort is made to hide the spell being cast people generally have a decent idea of the power level. If they want to try and hide a spell they can roll a contested deception ( illusions assumed to contain some kind of deception) or use an ability like subtle spell. Alternatively I sometimes use creature specific rules for counter spell based on the enemy so that counter spell is more of a trait than a spell. Its easier for Cr calculation and deciding what to do in combat but it should also stop accusations of meta gaming because you decide the level of the counter spell and when it triggers before hand.
Here is an example for a fire dragon:
Fiery counterspell (3 day or use breath weapon)
The dragon can produce the effects of counterspell cast at 5th level when it is targeted a spell that deals cold damage or produces an effect that can be burned away with fire such as the web or a flammable object launched with catapult.
So that dragon always casts it at 5th level and with specific spells. It can do it 3 times or use it's breath weapon and can't stop spells like lightning bolt that wouldn't be effected by heat or fire; or spells that don't target them like healing and buffs.
To avoid the accusation of metagaming, use playing cards.
Whenever anyone casts a spell, they grab a number card matching the slot used, and hold it out face down. They say, "Casting a spell" (they don't say which spell) and slow count to five. If anyone wants to counterspell, they have that count of five to say "Counterspell." They then grab a card with the slot level used and hold it out face down. Both parties reveal their cards at the same time, and then roll an ability check if required. Finally, the caster reveals what spell it is. That's the point the counterspeller learns if they used a fifth level slot to counter a cantrip. :-)
I figure that casters use their biggest spells on the first round, since they can't guarantee surviving for long, so as a GM I have my casting foes counterspell anything and everything they can on the first round. My players have learnt to be sneaky and use only cantrips on the first round, which stops thjeir big spells being countered but also means they have to wait a round for the big effects. Choice and consequence is good.