I was wondering if it’s considered ethical in the Dungeons and Dragons community for a saving throw or something similar to be rigged to progress the story? Example say the BBEG is going to kill a very beloved NPC but the party has a great healer and the dm rigs the check to save their lives to progress the story, is that a step too far?
If it's necessary for the story, it should not have a dice roll. If there is potential for failure, there should be a dice roll. One of the low key most important things as a DM is to know when to ask for a roll and when not to.
THAT SAID, reconsider forcing certain events. If a player has invested time and skill into crafting a really good healer, they might be upset when a beloved NPC dies and suddenly none of their magic works. Player actions and choices should be able to impact the world around them and, yes, even the story you had planned. I try never to plan too far ahead for that reason, instead following along with player actions and deciding the BBEG's next logical move in response between sessions.
If the npc MUST die, try to make it either so the players find out about it indirectly, are incapacitated, or have it be the result of a choice made by either the npc (i.e. sacrificing themselves so XYZ can survive) or the players (i.e. they choose to go after goal A leaving home base temporarily undefended), and then the players won't feel railroaded by events, and they should be really really mad at your bad guy and not you because their sense of verisimilitude will have been preserved.
This isnt an upcoming event that I planned to happen I was just trying to convey what I was saying, but you do have a good point of if it’s necessary not giving it a dice roll.
The purpose of a DM's screen is to hide dice rolls.
Yes, yes, they have cool charts and useful tables and often key information and all that, but the purpose is to hide the dice rolls.
Why would dice rolls need to be hidden?
Way back in the original iterations, one of the examples of a common thing was player attempts to sneak by and the DM rolls the dice. The players do not know the roll. The DM is supposed to say what happens.
Another piece of advice is sometimes, just roll the dice, look at them, make a note, and keep going.
It is theater. It is not at all uncommon for folks who have played for a very long time to "fudge a roll" or roll a die that didn't need to be rolled, or whatever else. Hearing math rocks clack is integral to the game, and one of the tools in a DM's kit.
If it serves the story, the decision is always to serve the story. THis is one of the reasons that people like me discourage overly specific dungeon designs (they will do this and end up here and then this will happen) because we know that isn't how players work.
It is the story of the players, not the villain. Anything that happens should ultimately work out in the heroes favor -- but....
... sometimes loss is a part of the adventure and a reason in and of itself. Enki was dragged into the underworld and gilgamesh went to get his best friend. Literally one of the oldest extant stories is about the death of your closest friend -- and how such shaped the life of those left behind.
IF it is a death, make it a noble one. Make it a sacrifice. Do the whole death speech while chaos reigns, all that stuff.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Never put plot critical events behind a die roll; the dice will screw you.
And don't put characters in a situation where they can't affect the outcome. The PCs should never just be passive observers, that's why they've got all those skills and abilities and spells and such. (For example, if you need a villain to get away, but there's this tabaxi monk with boots of speed and someone willing to cast longstrider on him. Well, you better have an exit plan that doesn't involve just running.) Make sure you have an option for moving forward if the party fails or if they succeed, or even if there's something like a partial success/partial failure.
To what I think is the larger question, there's not really consensus on whether or not it's OK to fudge die rolls. Personally, I've done it from time to time, mostly to save a character who is getting screwed by the die (if I've got a really hot hand behind the screen), but never to save one getting screwed by their own bad choices. There are others who say its always OK, and others who say it never is. You just kind of have to find something that works for you.
You guys have really good points, and I really need to get better at not planning so far ahead in dming and letting the players drive the story not my notes, And dming as a whole.
Never put plot critical events behind a die roll; the dice will screw you.
And don't put characters in a situation where they can't affect the outcome. The PCs should never just be passive observers, that's why they've got all those skills and abilities and spells and such. (For example, if you need a villain to get away, but there's this tabaxi monk with boots of speed and someone willing to cast longstrider on him. Well, you better have an exit plan that doesn't involve just running.) Make sure you have an option for moving forward if the party fails or if they succeed, or even if there's something like a partial success/partial failure.
To what I think is the larger question, there's not really consensus on whether or not it's OK to fudge die rolls. Personally, I've done it from time to time, mostly to save a character who is getting screwed by the die (if I've got a really hot hand behind the screen), but never to save one getting screwed by their own bad choices. There are others who say its always OK, and others who say it never is. You just kind of have to find something that works for you.
And you it’s not that the players can’t change anything it’s really more of the plot needing to go one way and I’m trying to figure out how to get the party from screwing themselves even more.
Never put plot critical events behind a die roll; the dice will screw you.
And don't put characters in a situation where they can't affect the outcome. The PCs should never just be passive observers, that's why they've got all those skills and abilities and spells and such. (For example, if you need a villain to get away, but there's this tabaxi monk with boots of speed and someone willing to cast longstrider on him. Well, you better have an exit plan that doesn't involve just running.) Make sure you have an option for moving forward if the party fails or if they succeed, or even if there's something like a partial success/partial failure.
To what I think is the larger question, there's not really consensus on whether or not it's OK to fudge die rolls. Personally, I've done it from time to time, mostly to save a character who is getting screwed by the die (if I've got a really hot hand behind the screen), but never to save one getting screwed by their own bad choices. There are others who say its always OK, and others who say it never is. You just kind of have to find something that works for you.
And you it’s not that the players can’t change anything it’s really more of the plot needing to go one way and I’m trying to figure out how to get the party from screwing themselves even more.
Well, that’s the thing. The plot shouldn’t need to go one way anymore than real world events need to. Sometimes the good guys lose. You don’t stop the party from screwing themselves. You let them do it, and then present them with the consequences of their failures. If the BBEG wins because the party failed, so be it. Sets up an interesting backdrop for the next campaign.
You guys have really good points, and I really need to get better at not planning so far ahead in dming and letting the players drive the story not my notes, And dming as a whole.
Instead of planning a whole story in advance, what I do instead is look at the story from the villain (or villains)'s point of view. What is their plan? What are their resources? What are their methods? Once you have a decent idea of that, I will plan out what the first 3-4 steps of the Big Evil Plan are, as well as the macro Endgame. The idea is that steps 1-3 will probably be happening in the background of your world, gradually coming to the forefront the more the world feels the effects and more importantly, the more these effects are felt by the players. Come step 4ish, that's when I figure the players have actively involved themselves in resisting the bad guy and therefore any plans the BBEG had have to change anyways so any additional work you did as the DM would need to be thrown out. Now the villain has to factor the players into their plans and vice versa going forward, and that's when you can take the time between sessions to figure out what the next step is.
That doesn't necessarily mean you can only plan one week in advance either. I prepare content when I think of it, dungeons, plot hooks, etc, and I keep that in my notebook until the players come across it. If I know what the players are up to and can guess their future plans, I can plan accordingly and prepare stuff ahead. I've even included a scripted death here or there, but the important thing was that if one of the players was able to stop it with a spell or ability on their character sheet, then I kinda have to let it fly.
Tldr: think of the villain's evil plan, and how the heroes interrupt it
Thanks man, I think you guys definitely picked up on my lack of DM experience, I’m just going to see what the players do next session wether if they ride or die I’ll let them drive the story and like you said maybe they’ll set up the next story.
To me a DM should only roll to determine the outcome of a situation or event that contain uncertainty and if it instead wish to decides such outcome, it can do so without fudging rolls and lying to players about the result.
I was wondering if it’s considered ethical in the Dungeons and Dragons community for a saving throw or something similar to be rigged to progress the story? Example say the BBEG is going to kill a very beloved NPC but the party has a great healer and the dm rigs the check to save their lives to progress the story, is that a step too far?
Under mo circumstances are dice rolls to be "rigged". The essence of the game is rolling dice to see what happens. You take that away, you might as well as read a book to the players.
When I said rigged I meant it’s needlessly difficult but still possible, all in all I did a horrible job conveying what I was asking in this forum
I was wondering if it’s considered ethical in the Dungeons and Dragons community for a saving throw or something similar to be rigged to progress the story? Example say the BBEG is going to kill a very beloved NPC but the party has a great healer and the dm rigs the check to save their lives to progress the story, is that a step too far?
When I said rigged I meant it’s needlessly difficult but still possible, all in all I did a horrible job conveying what I was asking in this forum
How exactly did you rigged the BBEG check so it is needlessly difficult but still possible to kill the beloved NPCs so it can save their lives to progress the story?
You gave disadvantage or significant penalty to the BBEG attack roll or it was another check of some sort?
Well the BBEG is supposed to kill a beloved NPC to hopefully enrage the party into killing the BBEG in return so I’m rigging the healing to save them and the lore implications is that the BBEG has a necrotic sword which destroyes the soul.
and all I really wanted to know if this was acceptable and I apologize for my lack of communication I’m not very skilled with forums.
DnD is a very board game-like tabletop in comparison to many other systems, but at the end of the day, it's still a roleplaying game and therefore mostly a social event.
Each group of people is different, so any rules, rolls, mechanics, modifiers and the sort only serve to make a fun game for the participants.
Each group has their own etiquette and expectations. If the group enjoys and expects a more story-driven and narrative game, then they probably wouldn't mind bending rules and fudging rolls, if it's done to make the game more fun.
But if the players are more interested in a dungeon crawler board game and carefully balanced strategy, then they probably would expect to be able to rely on rules and rolls more.
So. The annoying answer is: There is no universal etiquette. You just need to either feel the vibe or have a chat.
If you're just going to rig the dice roll then don't roll the dice. Use an Unskippable Cut Scene instead and just narrate what happen.
And what does it mean "to progress the story"? In Romeo & Juliette, Romeo doesn't succeed his medicine check and the story progresses to a sad ending. Had he succeeded then the story would have progressed in another way and led to the happy ending. The characters don't have to win in order for it to be a great story.
I was wondering if it’s considered ethical in the Dungeons and Dragons community for a saving throw or something similar to be rigged to progress the story?
Example say the BBEG is going to kill a very beloved NPC but the party has a great healer and the dm rigs the check to save their lives to progress the story, is that a step too far?
If it's necessary for the story, it should not have a dice roll. If there is potential for failure, there should be a dice roll. One of the low key most important things as a DM is to know when to ask for a roll and when not to.
THAT SAID, reconsider forcing certain events. If a player has invested time and skill into crafting a really good healer, they might be upset when a beloved NPC dies and suddenly none of their magic works. Player actions and choices should be able to impact the world around them and, yes, even the story you had planned. I try never to plan too far ahead for that reason, instead following along with player actions and deciding the BBEG's next logical move in response between sessions.
If the npc MUST die, try to make it either so the players find out about it indirectly, are incapacitated, or have it be the result of a choice made by either the npc (i.e. sacrificing themselves so XYZ can survive) or the players (i.e. they choose to go after goal A leaving home base temporarily undefended), and then the players won't feel railroaded by events, and they should be really really mad at your bad guy and not you because their sense of verisimilitude will have been preserved.
This isnt an upcoming event that I planned to happen I was just trying to convey what I was saying, but you do have a good point of if it’s necessary not giving it a dice roll.
The purpose of a DM's screen is to hide dice rolls.
Yes, yes, they have cool charts and useful tables and often key information and all that, but the purpose is to hide the dice rolls.
Why would dice rolls need to be hidden?
Way back in the original iterations, one of the examples of a common thing was player attempts to sneak by and the DM rolls the dice. The players do not know the roll. The DM is supposed to say what happens.
Another piece of advice is sometimes, just roll the dice, look at them, make a note, and keep going.
It is theater. It is not at all uncommon for folks who have played for a very long time to "fudge a roll" or roll a die that didn't need to be rolled, or whatever else. Hearing math rocks clack is integral to the game, and one of the tools in a DM's kit.
If it serves the story, the decision is always to serve the story. THis is one of the reasons that people like me discourage overly specific dungeon designs (they will do this and end up here and then this will happen) because we know that isn't how players work.
It is the story of the players, not the villain. Anything that happens should ultimately work out in the heroes favor -- but....
... sometimes loss is a part of the adventure and a reason in and of itself. Enki was dragged into the underworld and gilgamesh went to get his best friend. Literally one of the oldest extant stories is about the death of your closest friend -- and how such shaped the life of those left behind.
IF it is a death, make it a noble one. Make it a sacrifice. Do the whole death speech while chaos reigns, all that stuff.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I second everything Charlestheplant said.
Never put plot critical events behind a die roll; the dice will screw you.
And don't put characters in a situation where they can't affect the outcome. The PCs should never just be passive observers, that's why they've got all those skills and abilities and spells and such. (For example, if you need a villain to get away, but there's this tabaxi monk with boots of speed and someone willing to cast longstrider on him. Well, you better have an exit plan that doesn't involve just running.) Make sure you have an option for moving forward if the party fails or if they succeed, or even if there's something like a partial success/partial failure.
To what I think is the larger question, there's not really consensus on whether or not it's OK to fudge die rolls. Personally, I've done it from time to time, mostly to save a character who is getting screwed by the die (if I've got a really hot hand behind the screen), but never to save one getting screwed by their own bad choices. There are others who say its always OK, and others who say it never is. You just kind of have to find something that works for you.
You guys have really good points, and I really need to get better at not planning so far ahead in dming and letting the players drive the story not my notes, And dming as a whole.
And you it’s not that the players can’t change anything it’s really more of the plot needing to go one way and I’m trying to figure out how to get the party from screwing themselves even more.
Well, that’s the thing. The plot shouldn’t need to go one way anymore than real world events need to. Sometimes the good guys lose. You don’t stop the party from screwing themselves. You let them do it, and then present them with the consequences of their failures. If the BBEG wins because the party failed, so be it. Sets up an interesting backdrop for the next campaign.
Yeah your right, I think I should just stop planing everything and enjoy dnd
Instead of planning a whole story in advance, what I do instead is look at the story from the villain (or villains)'s point of view. What is their plan? What are their resources? What are their methods? Once you have a decent idea of that, I will plan out what the first 3-4 steps of the Big Evil Plan are, as well as the macro Endgame. The idea is that steps 1-3 will probably be happening in the background of your world, gradually coming to the forefront the more the world feels the effects and more importantly, the more these effects are felt by the players. Come step 4ish, that's when I figure the players have actively involved themselves in resisting the bad guy and therefore any plans the BBEG had have to change anyways so any additional work you did as the DM would need to be thrown out. Now the villain has to factor the players into their plans and vice versa going forward, and that's when you can take the time between sessions to figure out what the next step is.
That doesn't necessarily mean you can only plan one week in advance either. I prepare content when I think of it, dungeons, plot hooks, etc, and I keep that in my notebook until the players come across it. If I know what the players are up to and can guess their future plans, I can plan accordingly and prepare stuff ahead. I've even included a scripted death here or there, but the important thing was that if one of the players was able to stop it with a spell or ability on their character sheet, then I kinda have to let it fly.
Tldr: think of the villain's evil plan, and how the heroes interrupt it
Thanks man, I think you guys definitely picked up on my lack of DM experience, I’m just going to see what the players do next session wether if they ride or die I’ll let them drive the story and like you said maybe they’ll set up the next story.
To me a DM should only roll to determine the outcome of a situation or event that contain uncertainty and if it instead wish to decides such outcome, it can do so without fudging rolls and lying to players about the result.
When I said rigged I meant it’s needlessly difficult but still possible, all in all I did a horrible job conveying what I was asking in this forum
How exactly did you rigged the BBEG check so it is needlessly difficult but still possible to kill the beloved NPCs so it can save their lives to progress the story?
You gave disadvantage or significant penalty to the BBEG attack roll or it was another check of some sort?
Well the BBEG is supposed to kill a beloved NPC to hopefully enrage the party into killing the BBEG in return so I’m rigging the healing to save them and the lore implications is that the BBEG has a necrotic sword which destroyes the soul.
and all I really wanted to know if this was acceptable and I apologize for my lack of communication I’m not very skilled with forums.
It's fine don't worry. It's acceptable in the sense that the end justify the means to ensure the beloved NPC keep progressing the story.
DnD is a very board game-like tabletop in comparison to many other systems, but at the end of the day, it's still a roleplaying game and therefore mostly a social event.
Each group of people is different, so any rules, rolls, mechanics, modifiers and the sort only serve to make a fun game for the participants.
Each group has their own etiquette and expectations. If the group enjoys and expects a more story-driven and narrative game, then they probably wouldn't mind bending rules and fudging rolls, if it's done to make the game more fun.
But if the players are more interested in a dungeon crawler board game and carefully balanced strategy, then they probably would expect to be able to rely on rules and rolls more.
So. The annoying answer is: There is no universal etiquette. You just need to either feel the vibe or have a chat.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
I’ve never felt more enlightened by the words of a strangers on the internet in my life, thanks for all the help guys.
If you're just going to rig the dice roll then don't roll the dice. Use an Unskippable Cut Scene instead and just narrate what happen.
And what does it mean "to progress the story"? In Romeo & Juliette, Romeo doesn't succeed his medicine check and the story progresses to a sad ending. Had he succeeded then the story would have progressed in another way and led to the happy ending. The characters don't have to win in order for it to be a great story.
thanks for all the help guys, I really appreciate it I’m about the run out next session so hopefully it goes well.