So! Hi! I had a terribly cursed shower thought earlier today, so I'm here to share.
The thing is, my players have recently introduced me to Caesar cipher. And oh boy that was a mistake on their part. I thought about making a riddle out of it.... and things spiraled a bit from there. So, setting the scene a little bit:
Your players want to enter a place. This is a heavily guarded place, or perhaps a tomb, something like that. Anything that has a big aura to it. The only way to enter is through a magically locked door, on top of which is written "The statue is the answer". On a DC 15 Investigation, a player may notice that the word "Statue" is slightly altered from the rest of the text.
Indeed, on either side of the door, there is a colossal statue, which speaks a riddle when talked to. I'll let you come up with your own riddles ;) Each statue has a different riddle, the second one being harder than the first. The point is for the players to get the idea that one of them is supposed to be solved first, the order matters.
Once they start talking to a statue, they are interrupted by a magical hourglass turning, giving them a time limit. When they reach the time limit however (and they probably will), the door doesn't lock forever, it simply spawns an enemy, of increased difficulty if they reach the time limit multiple times. Because yes, once the encounter is done, the hourglass starts over.
Anyway, the statues! The first one, when its riddle is solved, says "An answer is 8". It will not say anything else from that point on. The second one, when its riddle is solved, goes mute, but spews out a decoding sheet. We'll come back to it later.
Once they have all that, they are supposed to have all the pieces. The solution is to apply Caesar cipher 8 to the word "Statue", and it becomes Rszstd. Once you have that, you use the decoding sheet, that translates R=D, S=I, Z=V, T=N, D=E. Throw in a bunch of other X=Y in that sheet so it's not obvious. Once you do that, the inscription reads "The divine is the answer". What does that mean? It means whatever divinity the owner of the place worships is the codeword! When the name (or title, whatever suits you) of the divinity is spoken aloud, the door opens.
As a little help, the encounters only have one monster type at a time. When you take out the first letter of each monster, it can spell out the solution. DC 20 Insight to hint that at them if they're struggling.
I know, it's a doozy, so I made an ugly Paint to schematize it. Feel free to use or give feedback! I know it's a REALLY hard and long one, its purpose is to fill a whole session, like a mini-dungeon. Use sparingly. Probably add a hint about Caesar cipher somehow.
PS: I clear myself of all responsibility towards any DMs murdered by their players after using this.
You only applied a Caesar Cipher 1 to your puzzle, not a Cipher 8 (see above--you shifted every letter to the left by 1, not 8). Properly it should be:
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
HIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZABCDEFG
-----
I have some problems with how this puzzle is designed--it doesn't seem hard, per se, it just seems kind of poorly designed. A true hard puzzle is hard because the logic and thought processes involved are difficult--but all the information you need to actually solve the puzzle is contained within the puzzle itself.
The only thing that makes your puzzle "hard" on its face (one could add hard riddles) are a few nonsensical portions in the middle that requires the players to infer what the DM is talking about, while the DM throws a needless distraction into the works. Specifically "the answer is 8" means absolutely nothing within the context of the puzzle--there would need to be some kind of meta knowledge on the part of the players (thus knowledge outside of the puzzle itself) about the type of cypher (which your clue really doesn't actually imply the existence of). This is further confused by the fact that (a) applying the cypher properly produces gibberish, which likely means the players will think there is a problem, (b) you are applying a double substitution cypher, so you are forcing your players to do the boring busywork of figuring out which cypher to use first, and (c) there is really no indication that "statue" is the base word that should be encrypted--your players will be inclined to think "we already got the answers from the statue, so that means we have 'used' that part of the riddle (point c is less problematic than points a and b).
I am still not overly fond of chaining different puzzles together (almost every group is going to have someone who does not enjoy puzzles, so spending an entire session on a puzzle can be boring for them), but here is a better way to accomplish what you set out to do, where everything is contained within the puzzle itself.
1. They read "The Statue is will open the door" on the first statue.
2. "But only the virtuous can find the key" on the second statue.
3. The door itself is decorated with a bas relief from the god's life--some kind of event that shows the god him or herself and which is relevant to the story of the campaign. There is no discernable keyhole or doorknob on the door.
4. Keep the portion where the statues provide riddles.
5. Solving the riddle for statue one causes the word "Statue" to change into a 6 digit mechanism like a luggage lock, with "Statue" written on each of the six slots. These slots can be rotated A-Z.
6. Solving the riddle for statue two reveals an encrypted message that applies a cypher to "But only the virtuous...." in its entirety.
7. Each letter in "statue" is found somewhere in "But only the virtuous..." which would allow the party to figure out how to translate Statue into Divine. Once that is spelled, there is a click, like a lock unlocking. We are skipping having two layers of cypher since that just produces busywork and can lead to confusion for the sake of confusion (which is bad puzzle design). Once they apply the cypher, statue one will read "The Divine will open the door."
8. They now have used the "key" from the second statue to unlock the door; the clue from the first statue shows where the latch to open it is--pushing on the Divine in the bas-relief will push the Divine's depiction inward, unlatching the door and allowing it to open.
Similar to what you wanted to do, but everything you need to know is generally contained within the puzzle itself, and the clues where you have to make an inference remain somewhat vague, but no so vague that players who cannot read your mind would be taking shots in the dark.
If you are enjoying this, that’s great. For me, it seems too much like you are challenging the players and not the characters.
Yeah, that's always the case with puzzles in D&D. That is, in fact, the entire point of them. If that's not for you, that's obviously totally fine, but then there's not really any point of designing a puzzle encounter.
Yea I have to say I'm with Sage on this one, in our games the players want to be challenged not the characters. I'm going to assume (not having played in many campaigns), that there are the very story driven role-play heavy games where everything is in character, or like we tend to play, which is more of a game, it's roleplay to the extent of actions and speech etc, but puzzles and riddles are for the players not the characters.
I like this, although would have the statue present the answer in a visual way, have them turn a shield to reveal a letter, change their pose YMCA style etc, that adds a touch more flavour.
With my group though, this would be a 2 session puzzle!
To Caerwyn: My bad on the 8/1 thing, messed up with the translator!
You make a lot of good points, I'll try to add some of them in, rework it a bit. I do think however we have different goals about what the puzzle is, most notably in my idea it doubles as a mini dungeon, hence the encounters. Overall, your proposal is good, very good even, but almost entirely a different one.
Maybe just making the first statue say Caesar 8 instead of just 8 would already solve a good portion of the issue?
To Caerwyn: My bad on the 8/1 thing, messed up with the translator!
You make a lot of good points, I'll try to add some of them in, rework it a bit. I do think however we have different goals about what the puzzle is, most notably in my idea it doubles as a mini dungeon, hence the encounters. Overall, your proposal is good, very good even, but almost entirely a different one.
Maybe just making the first statue say Caesar 8 instead of just 8 would already solve a good portion of the issue?
That would solve neither of the problems with your original puzzle - (a) it would involve meta knowledge that some players might have but others might not and thus be based on something that their characters might not know and (b) you would still have the inherent design flaw of using two different substitution cyphers, which is just repetitive busywork and thus bad puzzle design.
Compare to something like a riddle - all the information to solve the riddle is contained inside the riddle itself. A player might be better at riddles than another player, but their character still has the information they need to solve it. Further anyone can solve a riddle if they think about it some - or at least a group working together could parcel out the clues as a team making it a fun group activity. A “do this specific type of cypher” is a bad puzzle because you are effectively saying “does any player know this one specific term? If so, it’s a boring puzzle for that player and that player alone (no one actually likes simple substitution cyphers as a puzzle - they’re not hard, they’re just annoying plugging in letters until you’re finished); if not, look at how much more knowledge I, the DM, are than you throwing out terms you peons don’t know” (that’s slight hyperbole, but it’s the exact kind of hyperbolic response players are inclined to use when you base a puzzle on a niche piece of real world knowledge).
So! Hi! I had a terribly cursed shower thought earlier today, so I'm here to share.
The thing is, my players have recently introduced me to Caesar cipher. And oh boy that was a mistake on their part. I thought about making a riddle out of it.... and things spiraled a bit from there. So, setting the scene a little bit:
Your players want to enter a place. This is a heavily guarded place, or perhaps a tomb, something like that. Anything that has a big aura to it. The only way to enter is through a magically locked door, on top of which is written "The statue is the answer". On a DC 15 Investigation, a player may notice that the word "Statue" is slightly altered from the rest of the text.
Indeed, on either side of the door, there is a colossal statue, which speaks a riddle when talked to. I'll let you come up with your own riddles ;) Each statue has a different riddle, the second one being harder than the first. The point is for the players to get the idea that one of them is supposed to be solved first, the order matters.
Once they start talking to a statue, they are interrupted by a magical hourglass turning, giving them a time limit. When they reach the time limit however (and they probably will), the door doesn't lock forever, it simply spawns an enemy, of increased difficulty if they reach the time limit multiple times. Because yes, once the encounter is done, the hourglass starts over.
Anyway, the statues! The first one, when its riddle is solved, says "An answer is 8". It will not say anything else from that point on. The second one, when its riddle is solved, goes mute, but spews out a decoding sheet. We'll come back to it later.
Once they have all that, they are supposed to have all the pieces. The solution is to apply Caesar cipher 8 to the word "Statue", and it becomes Rszstd. Once you have that, you use the decoding sheet, that translates R=D, S=I, Z=V, T=N, D=E. Throw in a bunch of other X=Y in that sheet so it's not obvious. Once you do that, the inscription reads "The divine is the answer". What does that mean? It means whatever divinity the owner of the place worships is the codeword! When the name (or title, whatever suits you) of the divinity is spoken aloud, the door opens.
As a little help, the encounters only have one monster type at a time. When you take out the first letter of each monster, it can spell out the solution. DC 20 Insight to hint that at them if they're struggling.
I know, it's a doozy, so I made an ugly Paint to schematize it. Feel free to use or give feedback! I know it's a REALLY hard and long one, its purpose is to fill a whole session, like a mini-dungeon. Use sparingly. Probably add a hint about Caesar cipher somehow.
PS: I clear myself of all responsibility towards any DMs murdered by their players after using this.
The image: https://ibb.co/Fbf8BJh
If you are enjoying this, that’s great. For me, it seems too much like you are challenging the players and not the characters.
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
ZABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXY
You only applied a Caesar Cipher 1 to your puzzle, not a Cipher 8 (see above--you shifted every letter to the left by 1, not 8). Properly it should be:
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
HIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZABCDEFG
-----
I have some problems with how this puzzle is designed--it doesn't seem hard, per se, it just seems kind of poorly designed. A true hard puzzle is hard because the logic and thought processes involved are difficult--but all the information you need to actually solve the puzzle is contained within the puzzle itself.
The only thing that makes your puzzle "hard" on its face (one could add hard riddles) are a few nonsensical portions in the middle that requires the players to infer what the DM is talking about, while the DM throws a needless distraction into the works. Specifically "the answer is 8" means absolutely nothing within the context of the puzzle--there would need to be some kind of meta knowledge on the part of the players (thus knowledge outside of the puzzle itself) about the type of cypher (which your clue really doesn't actually imply the existence of). This is further confused by the fact that (a) applying the cypher properly produces gibberish, which likely means the players will think there is a problem, (b) you are applying a double substitution cypher, so you are forcing your players to do the boring busywork of figuring out which cypher to use first, and (c) there is really no indication that "statue" is the base word that should be encrypted--your players will be inclined to think "we already got the answers from the statue, so that means we have 'used' that part of the riddle (point c is less problematic than points a and b).
I am still not overly fond of chaining different puzzles together (almost every group is going to have someone who does not enjoy puzzles, so spending an entire session on a puzzle can be boring for them), but here is a better way to accomplish what you set out to do, where everything is contained within the puzzle itself.
1. They read "The Statue is will open the door" on the first statue.
2. "But only the virtuous can find the key" on the second statue.
3. The door itself is decorated with a bas relief from the god's life--some kind of event that shows the god him or herself and which is relevant to the story of the campaign. There is no discernable keyhole or doorknob on the door.
4. Keep the portion where the statues provide riddles.
5. Solving the riddle for statue one causes the word "Statue" to change into a 6 digit mechanism like a luggage lock, with "Statue" written on each of the six slots. These slots can be rotated A-Z.
6. Solving the riddle for statue two reveals an encrypted message that applies a cypher to "But only the virtuous...." in its entirety.
7. Each letter in "statue" is found somewhere in "But only the virtuous..." which would allow the party to figure out how to translate Statue into Divine. Once that is spelled, there is a click, like a lock unlocking. We are skipping having two layers of cypher since that just produces busywork and can lead to confusion for the sake of confusion (which is bad puzzle design). Once they apply the cypher, statue one will read "The Divine will open the door."
8. They now have used the "key" from the second statue to unlock the door; the clue from the first statue shows where the latch to open it is--pushing on the Divine in the bas-relief will push the Divine's depiction inward, unlatching the door and allowing it to open.
Similar to what you wanted to do, but everything you need to know is generally contained within the puzzle itself, and the clues where you have to make an inference remain somewhat vague, but no so vague that players who cannot read your mind would be taking shots in the dark.
Yeah, that's always the case with puzzles in D&D. That is, in fact, the entire point of them. If that's not for you, that's obviously totally fine, but then there's not really any point of designing a puzzle encounter.
Yea I have to say I'm with Sage on this one, in our games the players want to be challenged not the characters. I'm going to assume (not having played in many campaigns), that there are the very story driven role-play heavy games where everything is in character, or like we tend to play, which is more of a game, it's roleplay to the extent of actions and speech etc, but puzzles and riddles are for the players not the characters.
I like this, although would have the statue present the answer in a visual way, have them turn a shield to reveal a letter, change their pose YMCA style etc, that adds a touch more flavour.
With my group though, this would be a 2 session puzzle!
To Caerwyn: My bad on the 8/1 thing, messed up with the translator!
You make a lot of good points, I'll try to add some of them in, rework it a bit. I do think however we have different goals about what the puzzle is, most notably in my idea it doubles as a mini dungeon, hence the encounters. Overall, your proposal is good, very good even, but almost entirely a different one.
Maybe just making the first statue say Caesar 8 instead of just 8 would already solve a good portion of the issue?
That would solve neither of the problems with your original puzzle - (a) it would involve meta knowledge that some players might have but others might not and thus be based on something that their characters might not know and (b) you would still have the inherent design flaw of using two different substitution cyphers, which is just repetitive busywork and thus bad puzzle design.
Compare to something like a riddle - all the information to solve the riddle is contained inside the riddle itself. A player might be better at riddles than another player, but their character still has the information they need to solve it. Further anyone can solve a riddle if they think about it some - or at least a group working together could parcel out the clues as a team making it a fun group activity. A “do this specific type of cypher” is a bad puzzle because you are effectively saying “does any player know this one specific term? If so, it’s a boring puzzle for that player and that player alone (no one actually likes simple substitution cyphers as a puzzle - they’re not hard, they’re just annoying plugging in letters until you’re finished); if not, look at how much more knowledge I, the DM, are than you throwing out terms you peons don’t know” (that’s slight hyperbole, but it’s the exact kind of hyperbolic response players are inclined to use when you base a puzzle on a niche piece of real world knowledge).
Fair enough, I'll think about a V2.