This is really just a starting point for discussion. I was watching a video today that mentioned Sigmund Freud and his view on the healing of traumatic experiences. Now, I'm not educated on this, but my impression is that he basically said that you can heal trauma by revisiting or remembering the traumatic event(s). And if you've played Avernus then you might see where I'm going here. So, y'know, spoilers ahead for the adventure. Consider this whole thread to be a spoiler zone.
(Note: I think it's relevant that both Zariel and Lulu are, insofar as a divinely created warrior and a giant magic elephant can be, women, in the context of Freud's theories, but I don't think it's appropriate to discuss those parts of his theories here. So I won't.)
At the end of this adventure, you have a chance to redeem the evil angel Zariel. Now, what exactly made Zariel turn evil? Well, according to the adventure, she was betrayed by her army, got her hand chopped off, and was left to rot in Hell. Sounds a little traumatic. Okay, so, how would you go about redeeming her, if you were Sigmund Freud? You must need to heal her trauma, yes?
So, first you have to get her sword that she lost. Which requires you reliving one of her memories. Then you need to collect her old allies. Both of whom Then you need to go to her and basically ask her to come back to the light. If you have enough of the accoutrements of her trauma with you, then your chances go up.
It doesn't end here, though. You see, when I did a cursory search I found that someone had already written about Freud and a Descent into Avernus... Back in 1979? Yes, that's right, Avernus is not just something that exists in D&D. In fact, neither is Acheron, which Freud mentions by name in his "The Interpretation of Dreams." And this is where I would like to start the conversation. Because, interactions with Zariel don't really occur until the end of the adventure and they're pretty short, but there is one character with whom the players interact extensively, throughout the whole adventure, and who has a lot of buried memories that are explicitly uncovered through engaging with her dreams. That's right, it's Lulu.
I was going to link a public domain English translation of The Interpretation of Dreams here, but some of its contents are a bit... Questionable. It's a bit long and a bit, uh, Sigmund Freud, so I don't have a lot of motivation right now to dig into it. But I'm sure some of you are familiar with it already, or are more curious than I am. And I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on how it might have informed the design of this adventure and the things found therein. If indeed there is anything more to say. Is this adventure inspired by the works of Freud? Are there other works of his that shine through in it as well? Am I insane? Let's talk about it.
I'd like to point out that while Freud is recognized as one of the founders of psychology, that's pretty much all he actually contributed to the field. Most of his ideas have been tested and rejected as being unsupported by actual evidence.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I'd like to point out that while Freud is recognized as one of the founders of psychology, that's pretty much all he actually contributed to the field. Most of his ideas have been tested and rejected as being unsupported by actual evidence.
Oh yeah. I don't have a lot of respect for the guy or his work. But he's had enough influence that it's believable that something could be going on here, is the point. I just don't know his stuff closely enough to really say much more than I have.
This feels a lot like a correlation does not mean causation situation, to the point I highly doubt there was any real intentional reference.
Let’s go through a couple of the points you raise:
1. Traumatic backstories leading to a change in personality are hardly unique to Freud—they have been a literary staple for basically as long as we have had literature. And, for as long as we have had stories about good people falling to corruption, we have had stories of redemption.
Corruption and redemption arcs are particularly commonplace in the religious literature on which Avernus was very clearly based. Take, for example, Paradise Lost - in which Adam and Eve both fall to corruption but realise their mistake (also, in part, through dreams) and sue for and are granted a path to forgiveness.
2. Acheron is an extremely commonly used name—after Styx it is probably the most famous of the rivers in the Greek Underworld. It also is referenced by name by Marlow in Faustus (which is a pretty influential work in the whole demon literature thing); it is found in Virgil’s Aeneid (which Freud is quoting when he makes reference to it, and which also contains a journey to the underworld); it is found in countless dozens of other works and legends whose influence on D&D’s hell planes is very clearly noticeable.
3. Freud was really more about indirectly facing trauma through things like psychoanalysis - your classic image of a therapist talking to a patient to try and get the patient to metaphysically face their fears. I find it to be a bit of a stretch to connect “you help her literally face her past, in a way that is not uncommon in literature dating back centuries” to “inspired by a guy who talked about talking about your past trauma.”
Overall, I think Avernus seems more clearly inspired by other sources that seem to make a better fit and more direct connection to the campaign’s settings and themes. To the extent that there is a connection with Freud, that connection likely stems from two independent sources both looking at trauma and applying understandings that were already thousands of years old at the time of writing.
This feels a lot like a correlation does not mean causation situation, to the point I highly doubt there was any real intentional reference.
Let’s go through a couple of the points you raise:
3. Freud was really more about indirectly facing trauma through things like psychoanalysis - your classic image of a therapist talking to a patient to try and get the patient to metaphysically face their fears. I find it to be a bit of a stretch to connect “you help her literally face her past, in a way that is not uncommon in literature dating back centuries” to “inspired by a guy who talked about talking about your past trauma.”
Overall, I think Avernus seems more clearly inspired by other sources that seem to make a better fit and more direct connection to the campaign’s settings and themes. To the extent that there is a connection with Freud, that connection likely stems from two independent sources both looking at trauma and applying understandings that were already thousands of years old at the time of writing.
Speaking of which, Freud had the most indecipherably , scribbly handwriting ever scrawled on paper.
Who could ever make sense of his pyschoanalysis'findings'?
This is really just a starting point for discussion. I was watching a video today that mentioned Sigmund Freud and his view on the healing of traumatic experiences. Now, I'm not educated on this, but my impression is that he basically said that you can heal trauma by revisiting or remembering the traumatic event(s). And if you've played Avernus then you might see where I'm going here. So, y'know, spoilers ahead for the adventure. Consider this whole thread to be a spoiler zone.
(Note: I think it's relevant that both Zariel and Lulu are, insofar as a divinely created warrior and a giant magic elephant can be, women, in the context of Freud's theories, but I don't think it's appropriate to discuss those parts of his theories here. So I won't.)
At the end of this adventure, you have a chance to redeem the evil angel Zariel. Now, what exactly made Zariel turn evil? Well, according to the adventure, she was betrayed by her army, got her hand chopped off, and was left to rot in Hell. Sounds a little traumatic. Okay, so, how would you go about redeeming her, if you were Sigmund Freud? You must need to heal her trauma, yes?
So, first you have to get her sword that she lost. Which requires you reliving one of her memories. Then you need to collect her old allies. Both of whom Then you need to go to her and basically ask her to come back to the light. If you have enough of the accoutrements of her trauma with you, then your chances go up.
It doesn't end here, though. You see, when I did a cursory search I found that someone had already written about Freud and a Descent into Avernus... Back in 1979? Yes, that's right, Avernus is not just something that exists in D&D. In fact, neither is Acheron, which Freud mentions by name in his "The Interpretation of Dreams." And this is where I would like to start the conversation. Because, interactions with Zariel don't really occur until the end of the adventure and they're pretty short, but there is one character with whom the players interact extensively, throughout the whole adventure, and who has a lot of buried memories that are explicitly uncovered through engaging with her dreams. That's right, it's Lulu.
I was going to link a public domain English translation of The Interpretation of Dreams here, but some of its contents are a bit... Questionable. It's a bit long and a bit, uh, Sigmund Freud, so I don't have a lot of motivation right now to dig into it. But I'm sure some of you are familiar with it already, or are more curious than I am. And I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on how it might have informed the design of this adventure and the things found therein. If indeed there is anything more to say. Is this adventure inspired by the works of Freud? Are there other works of his that shine through in it as well? Am I insane? Let's talk about it.
I'd like to point out that while Freud is recognized as one of the founders of psychology, that's pretty much all he actually contributed to the field. Most of his ideas have been tested and rejected as being unsupported by actual evidence.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Oh yeah. I don't have a lot of respect for the guy or his work. But he's had enough influence that it's believable that something could be going on here, is the point. I just don't know his stuff closely enough to really say much more than I have.
This feels a lot like a correlation does not mean causation situation, to the point I highly doubt there was any real intentional reference.
Let’s go through a couple of the points you raise:
1. Traumatic backstories leading to a change in personality are hardly unique to Freud—they have been a literary staple for basically as long as we have had literature. And, for as long as we have had stories about good people falling to corruption, we have had stories of redemption.
Corruption and redemption arcs are particularly commonplace in the religious literature on which Avernus was very clearly based. Take, for example, Paradise Lost - in which Adam and Eve both fall to corruption but realise their mistake (also, in part, through dreams) and sue for and are granted a path to forgiveness.
2. Acheron is an extremely commonly used name—after Styx it is probably the most famous of the rivers in the Greek Underworld. It also is referenced by name by Marlow in Faustus (which is a pretty influential work in the whole demon literature thing); it is found in Virgil’s Aeneid (which Freud is quoting when he makes reference to it, and which also contains a journey to the underworld); it is found in countless dozens of other works and legends whose influence on D&D’s hell planes is very clearly noticeable.
3. Freud was really more about indirectly facing trauma through things like psychoanalysis - your classic image of a therapist talking to a patient to try and get the patient to metaphysically face their fears. I find it to be a bit of a stretch to connect “you help her literally face her past, in a way that is not uncommon in literature dating back centuries” to “inspired by a guy who talked about talking about your past trauma.”
Overall, I think Avernus seems more clearly inspired by other sources that seem to make a better fit and more direct connection to the campaign’s settings and themes. To the extent that there is a connection with Freud, that connection likely stems from two independent sources both looking at trauma and applying understandings that were already thousands of years old at the time of writing.
Speaking of which, Freud had the most indecipherably , scribbly handwriting ever scrawled on paper.
Who could ever make sense of his pyschoanalysis'findings'?
That's the kind of informed reply I was hoping for! Thanks! /gen
Well, that's probably why he was taken seriously in the medical field for so long. He fit right in!
When Freud become popular in the 20th century, he and his cohorts were sharply criticized as 'quacks' for their so-called theories on sexuality.