I've been running games for a while now and have a pretty good grip on adjusting to the various shenanigans that players drop on you. This being said, I have never DM'd a Twilight cleric before.
I know that they have a ton of awesome abilities and that I will have to watch 'player interpretation' of these abilities.
Any advice on running a game with one of these OP-meta clerics?
I might suggest looking at this less as a problem that has to be handled or perhaps a challenge that needs met. You're probably going to get a whole panople of "don't do X, allow Y or give out Z" responses. All I'm suggesting is that you play a game with a group of people with the intent of having fun while doing it. If your fear is that player "interpretations" are going to become an issue, I would higly advise a full session 0 conversation about things of that nature. Regardless of PC class, race or level. Your task as DM is one of arbitration of player action and the degree of success or failure of that action, and how it impacts the scenario that it takes place in. I'm not immediately reminded of any suggestions in the DMG that urge a DM to be intentionally wary of OP-meta subclasses.
All of that said, if you don't agree with the subclass, you have the ability to constrict race, class and subclass in your game. Tell your player your reasoning behind your decision and allow them the opportunity to walk away from yout table. Be prepared for them to accept that opportunity.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
It's strong but dooable. For the most part the temp hit points are equal to about one attack absorption for the player level (1d6+ (1 * cleric level)). The cleric will have an aura of twilight around them. It will make the Cleric very obvious a powerful character. I would give intelligent creatures a DC 15 Insight check for the boss, and if he passes he'll direct all attacks at the Cleric to take the field down. Mention it to the cleric so he knows what is going on. A smart cleric will put sanctuary on themselves and when that field is up they are acting as a healer only, limiting their damage output but protecting them from the mobs IF the boss rolls a 15 or higher.
There's only two problems I see, and it depends entirely on how far the campaign goes/how long this character lasts. The 1st level feature Eyes of Night grants 300ft. darkvision, but there's always the overlooked consequence of dim light which is the disadvantage to Perception checks. As for the 6th level feature Steps of Night which grants flying speed, but flying means being knocked prone or having their speed reduced to zero means they come crashing down.
I think the other features are manageable, and their Domain spells are more about control than damage. Honestly, I reckon you'll do fine, but if you have any specific problems do raise them with the player.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
Just run your campaign exactly as normal. Don't cater it to taking into account a particular class's abilities. If you feel encounters are going too easy, then just up the CR of the encounters as the campaign goes on. The players will want the game to be challenging, that's where they have fun.
Just run your campaign exactly as normal. Don't cater it to taking into account a particular class's abilities. If you feel encounters are going too easy, then just up the CR of the encounters as the campaign goes on. The players will want the game to be challenging, that's where they have fun.
Wanted to add plus one to this.
The only difficulty in a powerful character is that perhaps it'll be hard to balance a fight around the rest of the party. One super-optimal character in a party of cheerful idiots can make everyone else feel a bit useless, and fights set to a level that challenges that-one-guy can be terribly risky for the others.
Twilight, though, is perfectly fine. The temp hp are party-wide, in effect. You're free to just balance the fights to be fun with the extra tankiness. Make the player proud they kept their peeps upright and in the fight. Give everyone cool things to do.
I thing the biggest issue with twilight cleric is twilight sanctuary. Most of the other features are strong but not OP.
The problem with twilight sanctuary is the party is MUCH stronger when it is up than when it is not. Before level 6 it can only be used once per short rest, if you set up a session with 1 or 2 relatively straight forward fights (no need for TS) and then a fight that will challenge them at the end and the cleric uses TS on an early fight your o ptions are
Allow a short rest which could result in a short rest after every combat if you are not careful
Significantly nerf the boss fight (probably best to have 2 set ups here)
Show no mercy for reckless use of CD, if it results in a tpk so be it.
2 Is probably the best option here but it is a lot more work for you. Targeting the cleric is a legitimate tactic but if it works and the cleric gets incapacitated (not necessarily unconcious hold person or stunning Strike work too) the party is then much weaker and you have to deal with that.
Recognize that each class has specialties. They will rule in that area. If the player has a Druid, it will do better in natural settings than a City campaign.
Twilight Cleric is heavily armored and going to be better perceiving things than most people. They will see in the dark very far, invisible creatures (Faerie Fire), shapechangers (Moonbeam), etc. Do not expect to sneak up on them.
In the big battle, they will be granting temp hitpoints left and right. The temp hitpoints can be very very annoying. The best way to deal with this is to incapacitate the cleric FIRST.
The other thing to consider is if the other players will be happy to have a twilight cleric in the party, you should certainly give them a heads up so they can change their character accordingly as twilight cleric makes pretty much all other sources of temporary hit point redundent. If I created a human bard nd gave him inspiring leader as a starting feat I would be pretty annoyed to find a twilight cleric in the party.
There is a tendency as a DM to want to make it so everyone gets wounded a bit. Twilight cleric (or similar tricks, such as artillerist artificer protector cannon) turns 'do light damage to everyone' into 'do no damage at all', so you want to avoid that; focus fire, or just do high damage to everyone.
I've been running games for a while now and have a pretty good grip on adjusting to the various shenanigans that players drop on you. This being said, I have never DM'd a Twilight cleric before.
I know that they have a ton of awesome abilities and that I will have to watch 'player interpretation' of these abilities.
Any advice on running a game with one of these OP-meta clerics?
Evan
I am DMing one, after 18months of playing he just reached level 5 in a party of 7,
From my perspective it isn’t as bad as people might make out, the 300 feet dark vision can be a little irritating but, as stated, remember dark vision is not the same as perfect vision in the dark. The ability to share that ability with other players means that I have found ways to illuminate many my subterranean areas (that and the party having a gloomstalker lol). With specific dark areas set up to allow them to make use of those skills and feel like they are worth something other then just irritating the DM.
The most irritating thing for me was the fact that the tier 1 BBEG is an Aboleth, and the cleric can remove the charm effect of enslaved. There was a long period where the party had no idea what was causing them problems but now they have worked it out the chances of me having a secret agent in the party has been negated, one character did get enslaved but within a day in game time the party had worked out something was wrong and it was removed.
The party having Lemonds tiny hut is also useful ( I like parties having a “safety” spell by level 6 so this works) as the only cleric in a party of 7 he is not OP for the party so things are ticking along nicely.
I thing the biggest issue with twilight cleric is twilight sanctuary. Most of the other features are strong but not OP.
The problem with twilight sanctuary is the party is MUCH stronger when it is up than when it is not. Before level 6 it can only be used once per short rest, if you set up a session with 1 or 2 relatively straight forward fights (no need for TS) and then a fight that will challenge them at the end and the cleric uses TS on an early fight your o ptions are
Allow a short rest which could result in a short rest after every combat if you are not careful
Significantly nerf the boss fight (probably best to have 2 set ups here)
Show no mercy for reckless use of CD, if it results in a tpk so be it.
2 Is probably the best option here but it is a lot more work for you. Targeting the cleric is a legitimate tactic but if it works and the cleric gets incapacitated (not necessarily unconcious hold person or stunning Strike work too) the party is then much weaker and you have to deal with that.
I never set up an encounter with the intention that the party will or won’t have used certain spells or skills, in fact I usually will set up encounters early on that day with the intention of burning resources and abilities so as to make the big fight tougher.
Twilight’s are fun, I played one to 14th level (twilight 12 / stary druid 2). They can be powerful for sure but not that op. Heavy armour isn’t a big thing, neither is martial weapons as if they specialise in healing then they won’t be in melee often. Target them with spells that use saving throws. The dark vision is great when it comes up, but if your underground lair has lots of twisty turny tunnels then vision gets blocked long before 300ft. Same with closed doors or barricades etc.
The sanctuary is awesome, once per short rest until level 6 assuming no multiclass. It means fights can be easier against cr appropriate enemies. 1d6+2 thp makes a big difference against a bunch of goblins at level 2, but if all you are doing is throwing basic mobs at them then that’s a dm failure not an op class. Use conditions, terrain etc, split them up - sanctuary has a 30 ft range. Ash zombies are excellent fun, dretches, all kind of monsters inflict conditions. Have fun with it and experiment instead of getting annoyed about it being op.
One of the most memorable fights ever was with a blue dragon. The party barbarian took over 400 damage in the fight but between my healing and his resistance was able to stay up and kill the dragon. The player of the barbarian was ecstatic, loved his moment in the spotlight and the whole group was loving it. Afterwards he thanked me for keeping him alive. The entire thing was an epic experience for all of us. A story to tell the grand kids.
I've been running games for a while now and have a pretty good grip on adjusting to the various shenanigans that players drop on you. This being said, I have never DM'd a Twilight cleric before.
I know that they have a ton of awesome abilities and that I will have to watch 'player interpretation' of these abilities.
Any advice on running a game with one of these OP-meta clerics?
Evan
There are a pair of guys on Youtube that are deep into D&D and have been critiquing it for years. Last year, they went over every single class and subclass (think the number was 133) that was currently in the game. The Twilight Cleric was rated as the most powerful, and that is saying something with the various OP subclasses that have been released over the years.
The best answer would be to ban that subclass, as many many other DM's have done. That being said, you are stuck with it. The only way to deal with it is to have the bad guys be intelligent monsters and NPC's, that recognize the most powerful char facing them, and gave them focus fire to neutralize that threat. If the player complains, ask them if the players ever focus fire?
I would point out that intentionally countering a PC simply because the player made optimal choices that the DM allowed is about as near to illusion of choice as it gets. A DM constricting choices and setting expectations prior to the game starting is when that is supposed to happen. Not after they've allowed choices that they now deem as problematic and then alter the world's construct to counter that player's choice. This advice is more about being an adversary to the player than running a fun or fair game.
Using intelligent opponents is a tactic that I frequently abdicate for. Keith Ammann's - The Monster's Know Blog is a great go-to for monster tactics, IMHO. I absolutely agree that monsters should be played as if they want to win. Regardless of party makeup. A fair referee of a game shouldn't focus an encounter on one of the party members, it's a group game. The challenges and obstacles are supposed to be given to a team to solve. They certainly shouldn't be provided to intentionally hinder one specific party member, time and time again.
A Twilight Cleric in the hands of a smart player (and group) can wreck your game [railroad].
FIFY.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
A twilight cleric makes mind-control plots non-viable (automatic dispel all charms, even ones that normally would require remove curse, repeatedly in a large area, is way OP for a channel divinity), and 300' darkvision pretty much finishes off the possibility of interesting outdoor encounters in open terrain (to be fair, sharpshooter already mostly did this). The other effects aren't super problematic, you just need to boost CR by a bit to challenge the PCs.
Using intelligent opponents is a tactic that I frequently abdicate for. Keith Ammann's - The Monster's Know Blog is a great go-to for monster tactics, IMHO. I absolutely agree that monsters should be played as if they want to win. Regardless of party makeup. A fair referee of a game shouldn't focus an encounter on one of the party members, it's a group game.
Monsters that want to win will in fact target a twilight cleric.
A twilight cleric makes mind-control plots non-viable (automatic dispel all charms, even ones that normally would require remove curse, repeatedly in a large area, is way OP for a channel divinity), and 300' darkvision pretty much finishes off the possibility of interesting outdoor encounters in open terrain (to be fair, sharpshooter already mostly did this). The other effects aren't super problematic, you just need to boost CR by a bit to challenge the PCs.
You counter your own argument so well. The OP-ness of any build is subjective to the environment that it is in at the moment of assessment. My point still stands that if a player makes a dedicated choice to build a strong character, intentionally countering specifically that PC, as the DM, is a lot of things... fun might not make the list.
Using intelligent opponents is a tactic that I frequently abdicate for. Keith Ammann's - The Monster's Know Blog is a great go-to for monster tactics, IMHO. I absolutely agree that monsters should be played as if they want to win. Regardless of party makeup. A fair referee of a game shouldn't focus an encounter on one of the party members, it's a group game.
Monsters that want to win will in fact target a twilightcleric.
See...works just as well that way. Subjective opinions are far from fact. I do agree that monsters that want to win might use a multitude of tactics, focusing fire on the PC healing the already downed PCs will likely become one of them. Regardless of subclass, or class for that matter.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Do party members have to stay within 10 feet to keep the darkvision?
Also, how long do the temp hit points last? Ability says that for 1 minute you can give them, so I'm taking from this that they only last 1 minute.
Next, since he has to be in dim light or darkness to fly, if someone casts light, does he fall?
The temp hitpoints last, as with all temp hit points, until either
the next long rest Another source of temp hitpoints is recieved The hitpoints are used.
You take the HIGHER of your current temp hit points or the newly received source of temp hitpoints (but it is true that they don't stack).
apologies yes I should have said another source of temp hit points you choose to replace your current ones is received. given that the spell lasts 10 rounds, that is 10 chances to get the max temp hit points, not 10 chances to stack temp hit points.
Hello,
I've been running games for a while now and have a pretty good grip on adjusting to the various shenanigans that players drop on you. This being said, I have never DM'd a Twilight cleric before.
I know that they have a ton of awesome abilities and that I will have to watch 'player interpretation' of these abilities.
Any advice on running a game with one of these OP-meta clerics?
Evan
Be fair, have fun!
I might suggest looking at this less as a problem that has to be handled or perhaps a challenge that needs met. You're probably going to get a whole panople of "don't do X, allow Y or give out Z" responses. All I'm suggesting is that you play a game with a group of people with the intent of having fun while doing it. If your fear is that player "interpretations" are going to become an issue, I would higly advise a full session 0 conversation about things of that nature. Regardless of PC class, race or level. Your task as DM is one of arbitration of player action and the degree of success or failure of that action, and how it impacts the scenario that it takes place in. I'm not immediately reminded of any suggestions in the DMG that urge a DM to be intentionally wary of OP-meta subclasses.
All of that said, if you don't agree with the subclass, you have the ability to constrict race, class and subclass in your game. Tell your player your reasoning behind your decision and allow them the opportunity to walk away from yout table. Be prepared for them to accept that opportunity.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
It's strong but dooable. For the most part the temp hit points are equal to about one attack absorption for the player level (1d6+ (1 * cleric level)). The cleric will have an aura of twilight around them. It will make the Cleric very obvious a powerful character. I would give intelligent creatures a DC 15 Insight check for the boss, and if he passes he'll direct all attacks at the Cleric to take the field down. Mention it to the cleric so he knows what is going on. A smart cleric will put sanctuary on themselves and when that field is up they are acting as a healer only, limiting their damage output but protecting them from the mobs IF the boss rolls a 15 or higher.
There's only two problems I see, and it depends entirely on how far the campaign goes/how long this character lasts. The 1st level feature Eyes of Night grants 300ft. darkvision, but there's always the overlooked consequence of dim light which is the disadvantage to Perception checks. As for the 6th level feature Steps of Night which grants flying speed, but flying means being knocked prone or having their speed reduced to zero means they come crashing down.
I think the other features are manageable, and their Domain spells are more about control than damage. Honestly, I reckon you'll do fine, but if you have any specific problems do raise them with the player.
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
- The Assemblage of Houses, World of Warcraft
Just run your campaign exactly as normal. Don't cater it to taking into account a particular class's abilities. If you feel encounters are going too easy, then just up the CR of the encounters as the campaign goes on. The players will want the game to be challenging, that's where they have fun.
Wanted to add plus one to this.
The only difficulty in a powerful character is that perhaps it'll be hard to balance a fight around the rest of the party. One super-optimal character in a party of cheerful idiots can make everyone else feel a bit useless, and fights set to a level that challenges that-one-guy can be terribly risky for the others.
Twilight, though, is perfectly fine. The temp hp are party-wide, in effect. You're free to just balance the fights to be fun with the extra tankiness. Make the player proud they kept their peeps upright and in the fight. Give everyone cool things to do.
Like usual. :)
I thing the biggest issue with twilight cleric is twilight sanctuary. Most of the other features are strong but not OP.
The problem with twilight sanctuary is the party is MUCH stronger when it is up than when it is not. Before level 6 it can only be used once per short rest, if you set up a session with 1 or 2 relatively straight forward fights (no need for TS) and then a fight that will challenge them at the end and the cleric uses TS on an early fight your o ptions are
2 Is probably the best option here but it is a lot more work for you. Targeting the cleric is a legitimate tactic but if it works and the cleric gets incapacitated (not necessarily unconcious hold person or stunning Strike work too) the party is then much weaker and you have to deal with that.
Recognize that each class has specialties. They will rule in that area. If the player has a Druid, it will do better in natural settings than a City campaign.
Twilight Cleric is heavily armored and going to be better perceiving things than most people. They will see in the dark very far, invisible creatures (Faerie Fire), shapechangers (Moonbeam), etc. Do not expect to sneak up on them.
In the big battle, they will be granting temp hitpoints left and right. The temp hitpoints can be very very annoying. The best way to deal with this is to incapacitate the cleric FIRST.
The other thing to consider is if the other players will be happy to have a twilight cleric in the party, you should certainly give them a heads up so they can change their character accordingly as twilight cleric makes pretty much all other sources of temporary hit point redundent. If I created a human bard nd gave him inspiring leader as a starting feat I would be pretty annoyed to find a twilight cleric in the party.
There is a tendency as a DM to want to make it so everyone gets wounded a bit. Twilight cleric (or similar tricks, such as artillerist artificer protector cannon) turns 'do light damage to everyone' into 'do no damage at all', so you want to avoid that; focus fire, or just do high damage to everyone.
I am DMing one, after 18months of playing he just reached level 5 in a party of 7,
From my perspective it isn’t as bad as people might make out, the 300 feet dark vision can be a little irritating but, as stated, remember dark vision is not the same as perfect vision in the dark. The ability to share that ability with other players means that I have found ways to illuminate many my subterranean areas (that and the party having a gloomstalker lol). With specific dark areas set up to allow them to make use of those skills and feel like they are worth something other then just irritating the DM.
The most irritating thing for me was the fact that the tier 1 BBEG is an Aboleth, and the cleric can remove the charm effect of enslaved. There was a long period where the party had no idea what was causing them problems but now they have worked it out the chances of me having a secret agent in the party has been negated, one character did get enslaved but within a day in game time the party had worked out something was wrong and it was removed.
The party having Lemonds tiny hut is also useful ( I like parties having a “safety” spell by level 6 so this works) as the only cleric in a party of 7 he is not OP for the party so things are ticking along nicely.
I never set up an encounter with the intention that the party will or won’t have used certain spells or skills, in fact I usually will set up encounters early on that day with the intention of burning resources and abilities so as to make the big fight tougher.
Twilight’s are fun, I played one to 14th level (twilight 12 / stary druid 2). They can be powerful for sure but not that op. Heavy armour isn’t a big thing, neither is martial weapons as if they specialise in healing then they won’t be in melee often. Target them with spells that use saving throws. The dark vision is great when it comes up, but if your underground lair has lots of twisty turny tunnels then vision gets blocked long before 300ft. Same with closed doors or barricades etc.
The sanctuary is awesome, once per short rest until level 6 assuming no multiclass. It means fights can be easier against cr appropriate enemies. 1d6+2 thp makes a big difference against a bunch of goblins at level 2, but if all you are doing is throwing basic mobs at them then that’s a dm failure not an op class. Use conditions, terrain etc, split them up - sanctuary has a 30 ft range. Ash zombies are excellent fun, dretches, all kind of monsters inflict conditions. Have fun with it and experiment instead of getting annoyed about it being op.
One of the most memorable fights ever was with a blue dragon. The party barbarian took over 400 damage in the fight but between my healing and his resistance was able to stay up and kill the dragon. The player of the barbarian was ecstatic, loved his moment in the spotlight and the whole group was loving it. Afterwards he thanked me for keeping him alive. The entire thing was an epic experience for all of us. A story to tell the grand kids.
I would point out that intentionally countering a PC simply because the player made optimal choices that the DM allowed is about as near to illusion of choice as it gets. A DM constricting choices and setting expectations prior to the game starting is when that is supposed to happen. Not after they've allowed choices that they now deem as problematic and then alter the world's construct to counter that player's choice. This advice is more about being an adversary to the player than running a fun or fair game.
Using intelligent opponents is a tactic that I frequently abdicate for. Keith Ammann's - The Monster's Know Blog is a great go-to for monster tactics, IMHO. I absolutely agree that monsters should be played as if they want to win. Regardless of party makeup. A fair referee of a game shouldn't focus an encounter on one of the party members, it's a group game. The challenges and obstacles are supposed to be given to a team to solve. They certainly shouldn't be provided to intentionally hinder one specific party member, time and time again.
FIFY.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
A twilight cleric makes mind-control plots non-viable (automatic dispel all charms, even ones that normally would require remove curse, repeatedly in a large area, is way OP for a channel divinity), and 300' darkvision pretty much finishes off the possibility of interesting outdoor encounters in open terrain (to be fair, sharpshooter already mostly did this). The other effects aren't super problematic, you just need to boost CR by a bit to challenge the PCs.
Monsters that want to win will in fact target a twilight cleric.
You counter your own argument so well. The OP-ness of any build is subjective to the environment that it is in at the moment of assessment. My point still stands that if a player makes a dedicated choice to build a strong character, intentionally countering specifically that PC, as the DM, is a lot of things... fun might not make the list.
See...works just as well that way. Subjective opinions are far from fact. I do agree that monsters that want to win might use a multitude of tactics, focusing fire on the PC healing the already downed PCs will likely become one of them. Regardless of subclass, or class for that matter.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
OP here, thx everyone for the insight.
Next question.
Do party members have to stay within 10 feet to keep the darkvision?
Also, how long do the temp hit points last? Ability says that for 1 minute you can give them, so I'm taking from this that they only last 1 minute.
Next, since he has to be in dim light or darkness to fly, if someone casts light, does he fall?
The temp hitpoints last, as with all temp hit points, until either
the next long rest
Another source of temp hitpoints is recieved
The hitpoints are used.
The 300 foot dark vision no party members don't have to stay within 10 feet, once given then they just have it for the duration.
You take the HIGHER of your current temp hit points or the newly received source of temp hitpoints (but it is true that they don't stack).
apologies yes I should have said another source of temp hit points you choose to replace your current ones is received. given that the spell lasts 10 rounds, that is 10 chances to get the max temp hit points, not 10 chances to stack temp hit points.