I’m a new DM trying to run a game for the first time with some friends of mine who haven’t played before but were interested. We are only 3 sessions in as of writing this but there from the start was an issue of them not respecting the NPCs and world I homebrewed and have spent countless hours working to get to a point where i thought I could start a game. Session 1 I start them in a tavern, introduce a bar keep and immediately they try to recruit him, no big deal i run with it. But after negotiations for gold they left to go buy manacles to chain this poor bar keep to one of the PCs so he doesn’t run. (I gave no indication he wanted to run up to this point). And so from then on they proceeded to bully and intimidate this Owlin barkeep and essentially kidnap him for no reason. I keep going, generally to every NPC it’s just a lot of aggressive behavior and “I want that” type mentality.
they haven’t Killed any NPCs but when this Barkeep resists being locked up they just knock him unconscious and carry him. I’ve tried to show them this isn’t beneficial as the Paladin has reduced movement because he is chained to another person. Idk what to do.
i also tried to introduce a NPC that could lead them to a larger story and plot that i have been planning involving competing Factions in the area. But I made the mistake of giving said NPC a magical Item that was powerful. My players saw that and immediately all hopes of talking to this person were out the window as they just wanted the item. Even when offered more gold then it would cost for the item and the job they were on.
I don’t feel great about what i did but i caved let them get the item after they attacked this non confrontational NPC just for his magical ring and got them to the point were they could negotiate with one of these Faction leaders or a member at least.
i just feel like it’s hard to have them respect the people i create and the world and storytelling I’m trying to do. It’s all just more gold more magical items. Idk what to do
i just feel like it’s hard to have them respect the people i create and the world and storytelling I’m trying to do. It’s all just more gold more magical items. Idk what to do
Tell them this.
Before the next game, talk to the players. If you can, do it away from the game table, to emphasise that it is an out-of-game conversation.
I feel bad when you don't respect the world I create. I put a lot of time and effort into planning this. If all you want to do is kill everyone and everything with no story or morals or repercussions then perhaps we play a different game or maybe you need to move to another table, because I don't want to GM that style of game.
Have a discussion. Get the players' thoughts on this issue. Make sure you let them know yours. This is a group activity, so the fun of everyone at the table is important. It's not "GM vs Players"; it's "a bunch of mates having fun."
It is possible that the only games they have played are DIablo and Doom and the like, and so they think this is how RPGs work.
Instead of D&D you play Heroquest or Munchkin.
Maybe the players do move to another table. After all, not playing games is better than playing bad games (especially for a GM).
Personally, I don't GM villains. I play hobbies to get away from crap in the real world, so the PCs in my games are required to not be the bad guys. They might not be the good guys, but they are never villains. Kidnapping a barkeep is villainous behaviour, and at my table, it would result in a PC instantly becoming an NPC and a player being invited to create another character. But that's my table. You and your group will have to have a conversation about the rules at your table.
I'll begin by saying that there are two ways you can go about most of the things here, especially as a new DM: one is to say "are you sure?" in a serious tone. If you do that, it implies there may be consequences that they won't like. It gives them a chance to rethink their actions. The other is to say "no." No is a complete sentence. It requires no context, debate or discussion. If you say no to something, the players drop it and think of something else. Both can get overused to the point where people are lost or simply don't want to play, but there is a healthy medium. "Yes, and" comes with experience and with players who have understood the clearly communicated expectations of the game you're supposed to lay out.
Above all else though, communication is key. Kudos to Greenstone_Walker for providing an example of how to communicate the problems you've listed. "This isn't the kind of game I want to run," and "can we come up with a different way of solving this without resorting to [x]" are basic ones, but not as helpful as the above. And maybe D&D isn't for them, or maybe it is but they want a dungeon crawl. You don't have to play a game you both dislike; you can quite simply say that D&D isn't an activity we're compatible for.
I’m a new DM trying to run a game for the first time with some friends of mine who haven’t played before but were interested. We are only 3 sessions in as of writing this but there from the start was an issue of them not respecting the NPCs and world I homebrewed and have spent countless hours working to get to a point where i thought I could start a game. Session 1 I start them in a tavern, introduce a bar keep and immediately they try to recruit him, no big deal i run with it. But after negotiations for gold they left to go buy manacles to chain this poor bar keep to one of the PCs so he doesn’t run. (I gave no indication he wanted to run up to this point). And so from then on they proceeded to bully and intimidate this Owlin barkeep and essentially kidnap him for no reason. I keep going, generally to every NPC it’s just a lot of aggressive behavior and “I want that” type mentality.
I assume the NPCs are level one and have little to no fame to their names? How are the townspeople reacting to seeing the barkeep, likely a lifelong resident, being hauled away by people who have no signs of being guards? Were I one of the townsfolk seeing this happening, I'd be calling for help as bandits are in town, maybe even feeling brave enough to question what's happening.
If the player characters want to be bullies, they will feel the consequences. Shops will refuse them service, bounty hunters will pay them a visit, and quests will not be offered to them. Remind them of who they are and what their goals are, and ask them how their actions are helping them in this quest.
As said before though, and you've mentioned it yourself (it's good you recognise that you've caved), you need to tell your players "no, when you do [x] I feel [y]. There are other ways of doing [z]."
i also tried to introduce a NPC that could lead them to a larger story and plot that i have been planning involving competing Factions in the area. But I made the mistake of giving said NPC a magical Item that was powerful. My players saw that and immediately all hopes of talking to this person were out the window as they just wanted the item. Even when offered more gold then it would cost for the item and the job they were on.
I don’t feel great about what i did but i caved let them get the item after they attacked this non confrontational NPC just for his magical ring and got them to the point were they could negotiate with one of these Faction leaders or a member at least.
Again, they're making enemies of allies. Someone who can obtain a magical item by any means will have some skills: guile, spellcasting, influence... and all that contacts that come with it. The player characters can promptly expect to be arrested (or assassinated), and the players can then roll up characters more fitting for the game, should you still both want to play.
Hindsight is 20/20, but as soon as the NPCs became threatening I would've presented the following: "Might I remind you that you have a reputation for kidnapping and extortion? I'm going to give you one last chance, one that may even clear your names: either complete my task and take the generous amounts of money I have offered you, and if we can work together I can make contact with my enchanter, as and when I feel you need more powerful items. Take this offer, or leave. I assure you, your lives are not worth losing to this item." If they attack, so be it. If they die, so be it. If they live, so be it... and they'll have to deal with that NPC's contacts and allies. At that point life would be so miserable for them they may as well retire their characters.
i just feel like it’s hard to have them respect the people i create and the world and storytelling I’m trying to do. It’s all just more gold more magical items. Idk what to do
As the user I mentioned earlier suggests, it'd be best to have a sit down and just ask what the players' expectations were, and then tell them what yours were. It might've been that they under/overestimated tolerance towards certain behaviours, it might've been that there was insufficient communication from one or all parties involved, or it might've been that they were bored and wanted to play something different.
If I had to suggest something, it would be sending a message to each individual player asking, "how are you finding the game? Are you enjoying it, would you prefer to play something else, is there more I can do for you?" If you ask them as a group, that might make them too nervous to come out and say they're not enjoying certain things, or just let the more vocal member of the group do all the talking and agree. The group discussion should come up, but preferably once you've got the individual (anonymous) complaints, comments and compliments. And even then you might just have to say "thanks for all your feedback, but I no longer want to run this game." Don't feel pressured or obliged to play: when the fun stops, stop.
I wish you luck. If you continue DMing I might suggest starting off smaller rather than homebrew. There's plenty of free content out there that doesn't allow for this much deviation, especially into evil territory.
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Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
It sounds like the problem is that they're treating it like a videogame, and they need to be shown that it's not. NPCs will react negatively if they just go into houses and smash pottery to take the money hidden inside, and that reputation will follow them as traveling merchants tell other towns about the traveling thugs. If the party want to be seen as heroes, they have to act like heroes.
Just because it's a fantasy world doesn't mean they don't have consequences for their actions.
If a group of people wonder into town and chain up a moderately respected barkeep, people would tell the guards, and they'd come for the party. And even if the party defeated the local guards and escaped, the situation would escalate, and eventually high-level mercenaries (the sort the players hope to eventually be) would be hired to stop them, and the players' characters would get obliterated.
Also, set boundaries. Persuasion isn't mind control. A character with a thriving business and a family to take care of may not be willing to leave that behind for any price. If the players are trying to convince an NPC to do something that's against that NPC's character, tell them that there is no roll, because he's not going to do what they want. You can't convince a shopkeeper to give you products for less than he acquired them for, no matter how persuasive you are... shopkeepers need to make a living too.
This can happen with new people, and the reason isn't always because they are sociopaths. Playing this game and RPing with other for this first time can make people feel vulnerable and uncomfortable, and It's "safer" to act like a dik and be abusive or joke around and not be serious than it is to RP a kindhearted personality.
The best way to deal with this is to just explain that there are some unspoken rules, like this is a cooperative game and you shouldn't just attack your party, that you will make some effort to go along with the games plot, etc.
Then explain what would happen if they do this kind of thing in the world. You can tell them that the world has laws and law enforcers, if you kidnap an innocent civilian and drag him around in chains there are more powerful people than that party who are going to take care of the problem.
If I was you I'd tell them this, then ask them to make new characters of the same level. Next session you reveal that their new PCs have been hired to go save the barkeeper.
i just feel like it’s hard to have them respect the people i create and the world and storytelling I’m trying to do. It’s all just more gold more magical items. Idk what to do
Tell them this.
Before the next game, talk to the players. If you can, do it away from the game table, to emphasise that it is an out-of-game conversation.
I feel bad when you don't respect the world I create. I put a lot of time and effort into planning this. If all you want to do is kill everyone and everything with no story or morals or repercussions then perhaps we play a different game or maybe you need to move to another table, because I don't want to GM that style of game.
Have a discussion. Get the players' thoughts on this issue. Make sure you let them know yours. This is a group activity, so the fun of everyone at the table is important. It's not "GM vs Players"; it's "a bunch of mates having fun."
It is possible that the only games they have played are DIablo and Doom and the like, and so they think this is how RPGs work.
Instead of D&D you play Heroquest or Munchkin.
Maybe the players do move to another table. After all, not playing games is better than playing bad games (especially for a GM).
Personally, I don't GM villains. I play hobbies to get away from crap in the real world, so the PCs in my games are required to not be the bad guys. They might not be the good guys, but they are never villains. Kidnapping a barkeep is villainous behaviour, and at my table, it would result in a PC instantly becoming an NPC and a player being invited to create another character. But that's my table. You and your group will have to have a conversation about the rules at your table.
I agree 100% here.
Most new players go through a phase like this before they realize 1) the amount of work a dm puts into making a world for which the game can take place in and 2) that the dm also needs to have fun otherwise what's the point for them?
Eventually, and this can take varying amounts of time depending relatively on the maturity of your players, they'll realize that they can have more fun by buying into the world and allowing meaning into the gameplay.
But, if you have that talk with the players as Greenstone recommend and the players don't respond or respect your feelings on the matter, then I wouldn't DM for them anymore. It's fine. Not every group of friends can be a good dnd group.
Ask if your players want a more combat focused (hack and slash) campaign. If they do, send them to a dungeon full of monsters and after 5-10 game sessions let them meet an NPC who wants to talk. Maybe it is a prisoner they can talk to and free. If they kill or enslave this NPC run another 10-15 sessions of combat. Or turn the town into a dungeon as the people turn into zombies and the players have to fight their way to freedom.
Hack and Slash does mean no role playing. In comic books the hero and villain often banter during their fights, so you can have the villains reveal some of the story that you want to tell as they are bragging or trying to intimidate the players. Even have them do some saving throws or become frightened of the villain after some mean remark. Make sure you specify it is the villain making a statement about a character, so no player feels attacked. If you know the players well, you can avoid any hot button touchy issues.
It is perfectly acceptable for you to have a conversation prior to the next session beginning where you explain that you have no interest in running an evil player-based campaign, that this kind of RPG is distinct from CRPGs in that there are very real consequences when individuals in-world do the kinds of things you describe and most all of those consequences involve the game being over fairly quickly for everyone. In my own game, I have had to remind players who wish to play more abrasive, arrogant, or condescending characters that the role-playing, while encouraged greatly, does have limits in that, if your character is so contrary that the rest of the party would not actually choose to continue to adventure with you, you could find yourself with nothing to do while the rest continue the adventure without you.
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I’m a new DM trying to run a game for the first time with some friends of mine who haven’t played before but were interested. We are only 3 sessions in as of writing this but there from the start was an issue of them not respecting the NPCs and world I homebrewed and have spent countless hours working to get to a point where i thought I could start a game. Session 1 I start them in a tavern, introduce a bar keep and immediately they try to recruit him, no big deal i run with it. But after negotiations for gold they left to go buy manacles to chain this poor bar keep to one of the PCs so he doesn’t run. (I gave no indication he wanted to run up to this point). And so from then on they proceeded to bully and intimidate this Owlin barkeep and essentially kidnap him for no reason. I keep going, generally to every NPC it’s just a lot of aggressive behavior and “I want that” type mentality.
they haven’t Killed any NPCs but when this Barkeep resists being locked up they just knock him unconscious and carry him. I’ve tried to show them this isn’t beneficial as the Paladin has reduced movement because he is chained to another person. Idk what to do.
i also tried to introduce a NPC that could lead them to a larger story and plot that i have been planning involving competing Factions in the area. But I made the mistake of giving said NPC a magical Item that was powerful. My players saw that and immediately all hopes of talking to this person were out the window as they just wanted the item. Even when offered more gold then it would cost for the item and the job they were on.
I don’t feel great about what i did but i caved let them get the item after they attacked this non confrontational NPC just for his magical ring and got them to the point were they could negotiate with one of these Faction leaders or a member at least.
i just feel like it’s hard to have them respect the people i create and the world and storytelling I’m trying to do. It’s all just more gold more magical items. Idk what to do
Tell them this.
Before the next game, talk to the players. If you can, do it away from the game table, to emphasise that it is an out-of-game conversation.
I feel bad when you don't respect the world I create. I put a lot of time and effort into planning this. If all you want to do is kill everyone and everything with no story or morals or repercussions then perhaps we play a different game or maybe you need to move to another table, because I don't want to GM that style of game.
Have a discussion. Get the players' thoughts on this issue. Make sure you let them know yours. This is a group activity, so the fun of everyone at the table is important. It's not "GM vs Players"; it's "a bunch of mates having fun."
It is possible that the only games they have played are DIablo and Doom and the like, and so they think this is how RPGs work.
Instead of D&D you play Heroquest or Munchkin.
Maybe the players do move to another table. After all, not playing games is better than playing bad games (especially for a GM).
Personally, I don't GM villains. I play hobbies to get away from crap in the real world, so the PCs in my games are required to not be the bad guys. They might not be the good guys, but they are never villains. Kidnapping a barkeep is villainous behaviour, and at my table, it would result in a PC instantly becoming an NPC and a player being invited to create another character. But that's my table. You and your group will have to have a conversation about the rules at your table.
I'll begin by saying that there are two ways you can go about most of the things here, especially as a new DM: one is to say "are you sure?" in a serious tone. If you do that, it implies there may be consequences that they won't like. It gives them a chance to rethink their actions. The other is to say "no." No is a complete sentence. It requires no context, debate or discussion. If you say no to something, the players drop it and think of something else. Both can get overused to the point where people are lost or simply don't want to play, but there is a healthy medium. "Yes, and" comes with experience and with players who have understood the clearly communicated expectations of the game you're supposed to lay out.
Above all else though, communication is key. Kudos to Greenstone_Walker for providing an example of how to communicate the problems you've listed. "This isn't the kind of game I want to run," and "can we come up with a different way of solving this without resorting to [x]" are basic ones, but not as helpful as the above. And maybe D&D isn't for them, or maybe it is but they want a dungeon crawl. You don't have to play a game you both dislike; you can quite simply say that D&D isn't an activity we're compatible for.
I assume the NPCs are level one and have little to no fame to their names? How are the townspeople reacting to seeing the barkeep, likely a lifelong resident, being hauled away by people who have no signs of being guards? Were I one of the townsfolk seeing this happening, I'd be calling for help as bandits are in town, maybe even feeling brave enough to question what's happening.
If the player characters want to be bullies, they will feel the consequences. Shops will refuse them service, bounty hunters will pay them a visit, and quests will not be offered to them. Remind them of who they are and what their goals are, and ask them how their actions are helping them in this quest.
As said before though, and you've mentioned it yourself (it's good you recognise that you've caved), you need to tell your players "no, when you do [x] I feel [y]. There are other ways of doing [z]."
Again, they're making enemies of allies. Someone who can obtain a magical item by any means will have some skills: guile, spellcasting, influence... and all that contacts that come with it. The player characters can promptly expect to be arrested (or assassinated), and the players can then roll up characters more fitting for the game, should you still both want to play.
Hindsight is 20/20, but as soon as the NPCs became threatening I would've presented the following: "Might I remind you that you have a reputation for kidnapping and extortion? I'm going to give you one last chance, one that may even clear your names: either complete my task and take the generous amounts of money I have offered you, and if we can work together I can make contact with my enchanter, as and when I feel you need more powerful items. Take this offer, or leave. I assure you, your lives are not worth losing to this item." If they attack, so be it. If they die, so be it. If they live, so be it... and they'll have to deal with that NPC's contacts and allies. At that point life would be so miserable for them they may as well retire their characters.
As the user I mentioned earlier suggests, it'd be best to have a sit down and just ask what the players' expectations were, and then tell them what yours were. It might've been that they under/overestimated tolerance towards certain behaviours, it might've been that there was insufficient communication from one or all parties involved, or it might've been that they were bored and wanted to play something different.
If I had to suggest something, it would be sending a message to each individual player asking, "how are you finding the game? Are you enjoying it, would you prefer to play something else, is there more I can do for you?" If you ask them as a group, that might make them too nervous to come out and say they're not enjoying certain things, or just let the more vocal member of the group do all the talking and agree. The group discussion should come up, but preferably once you've got the individual (anonymous) complaints, comments and compliments. And even then you might just have to say "thanks for all your feedback, but I no longer want to run this game." Don't feel pressured or obliged to play: when the fun stops, stop.
I wish you luck. If you continue DMing I might suggest starting off smaller rather than homebrew. There's plenty of free content out there that doesn't allow for this much deviation, especially into evil territory.
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
- The Assemblage of Houses, World of Warcraft
It sounds like the problem is that they're treating it like a videogame, and they need to be shown that it's not. NPCs will react negatively if they just go into houses and smash pottery to take the money hidden inside, and that reputation will follow them as traveling merchants tell other towns about the traveling thugs. If the party want to be seen as heroes, they have to act like heroes.
Just because it's a fantasy world doesn't mean they don't have consequences for their actions.
If a group of people wonder into town and chain up a moderately respected barkeep, people would tell the guards, and they'd come for the party. And even if the party defeated the local guards and escaped, the situation would escalate, and eventually high-level mercenaries (the sort the players hope to eventually be) would be hired to stop them, and the players' characters would get obliterated.
Also, set boundaries. Persuasion isn't mind control. A character with a thriving business and a family to take care of may not be willing to leave that behind for any price. If the players are trying to convince an NPC to do something that's against that NPC's character, tell them that there is no roll, because he's not going to do what they want. You can't convince a shopkeeper to give you products for less than he acquired them for, no matter how persuasive you are... shopkeepers need to make a living too.
This can happen with new people, and the reason isn't always because they are sociopaths. Playing this game and RPing with other for this first time can make people feel vulnerable and uncomfortable, and It's "safer" to act like a dik and be abusive or joke around and not be serious than it is to RP a kindhearted personality.
The best way to deal with this is to just explain that there are some unspoken rules, like this is a cooperative game and you shouldn't just attack your party, that you will make some effort to go along with the games plot, etc.
Then explain what would happen if they do this kind of thing in the world. You can tell them that the world has laws and law enforcers, if you kidnap an innocent civilian and drag him around in chains there are more powerful people than that party who are going to take care of the problem.
If I was you I'd tell them this, then ask them to make new characters of the same level. Next session you reveal that their new PCs have been hired to go save the barkeeper.
I agree 100% here.
Most new players go through a phase like this before they realize 1) the amount of work a dm puts into making a world for which the game can take place in and 2) that the dm also needs to have fun otherwise what's the point for them?
Eventually, and this can take varying amounts of time depending relatively on the maturity of your players, they'll realize that they can have more fun by buying into the world and allowing meaning into the gameplay.
But, if you have that talk with the players as Greenstone recommend and the players don't respond or respect your feelings on the matter, then I wouldn't DM for them anymore. It's fine. Not every group of friends can be a good dnd group.
One of my friends suggested that you make the barkeep turn into a dragon and fly away taking the pc with him.
I know what you're thinking, did he use up all his Ki points or does he still have one, well, are you feeling lucky punk?
Ask if your players want a more combat focused (hack and slash) campaign. If they do, send them to a dungeon full of monsters and after 5-10 game sessions let them meet an NPC who wants to talk. Maybe it is a prisoner they can talk to and free. If they kill or enslave this NPC run another 10-15 sessions of combat. Or turn the town into a dungeon as the people turn into zombies and the players have to fight their way to freedom.
Hack and Slash does mean no role playing. In comic books the hero and villain often banter during their fights, so you can have the villains reveal some of the story that you want to tell as they are bragging or trying to intimidate the players. Even have them do some saving throws or become frightened of the villain after some mean remark. Make sure you specify it is the villain making a statement about a character, so no player feels attacked. If you know the players well, you can avoid any hot button touchy issues.
It is perfectly acceptable for you to have a conversation prior to the next session beginning where you explain that you have no interest in running an evil player-based campaign, that this kind of RPG is distinct from CRPGs in that there are very real consequences when individuals in-world do the kinds of things you describe and most all of those consequences involve the game being over fairly quickly for everyone. In my own game, I have had to remind players who wish to play more abrasive, arrogant, or condescending characters that the role-playing, while encouraged greatly, does have limits in that, if your character is so contrary that the rest of the party would not actually choose to continue to adventure with you, you could find yourself with nothing to do while the rest continue the adventure without you.