I'm in a group that is being run by a first time dm, ( and I don' begrudge him this were all new once) now this dm is a nice guy and he's really fun.... however he is really really bad a being a dm.
He's trying his best but the sessions allways end up unfulfilling and frustrating. We've tried giving him tips and stuff to help but it's really not helping.
The problem is that he created this awesome and detailed fantasy world ( he's apprently writing a book about it) but then didn't really consider actually incorporating the players characters.. he keeps trying to change the player characters, and true to "win" combat encounters.
Tldr: he's acting like an author, not a dm.
So we've come up with a plan. We're gonna try and convince him to run some modules rather than his original world. ( we are gonna say it' for practicing group cohesion) hopefully having him get some more practice just running a game will make him a better dm..
This is where you come in, I need some advice for good 5e modules for a larger end group of mostly 1-3 rd level characters. This dm dosent like what he terms "boring traditional fantasy tropes" so any adventures that are slightly uncommon would be appreciated.
I would forever be in your guys debt so thanks for any advice!
I disagree. The soul and center of being a DM is being an author. Just not in the traditional fashion. Truth be told, you are more like a primary author, while your players are your co-author. You tell the story of where their character are, what they see, and how the world around them reacts to their actions. They intern fill in the blanks of how the story's main characters (their PCs) behave.
You said he was trying to change the player characters to win encounters. How so?
My advice would be to go ahead and suggest/request the modules, but if this fantasy world is his baby, don't take that away from him. Ask him to modify a module you like so it will fit in the context of his own world.
The single best campaign I ever was part of, as a player, was in a similar world. A buddy of mine was writing a fantasy story, and set a D&D campaign in it in order to look for the gaps in his constructed world. The setting was amazing. The encounters were great. The currency and time systems were interesting. And our characters felt like true heroes. I will never forget those fishy-duck looking humanoids that were the dominant race in our starting area. Good times.
Look up "Core 1-1: A Scream in the Night" by M. Sean Molley. It would be a good "team building" adventure with lots of fun choices that also subverts an unexpectedly high number of D&D tropes. It also has two follow-up adventures if everyone is still having fun bu the end of it.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
I think the general consensus among players online and whom I've spoken to is that the best modules (for any DM; written by WoTC) are storm king's thunder, Curse of Strahd and Lost Mine of Phandelver. Generally, that's what I hear. LMoP is supposed to cap out at around lvl 4 (though it's easy enough to stretch past level 8 if you are a creative type). Curse of Strahd is gothic horror, so, although it starts at level 3 (making it perfect for your situation) it requires more investment/buy-in than high fantasy D&D does. It would be nearly impossible to fold Strahd into something that wasn't already strahd without some huge cataclysmic whiplash inducing event (which is a legitimate story-telling technique, and never let anyone tell you otherwise.)
I have not run SKT.
On the issue of how to take a poor DM and make him a good DM, here are my thoughts.
1. He needs to recognize that the table isn't having fun. Trying to con him into learning how to DM by putting him behind a module isn't a terrible thought, BUT it should come after a frank discussion of the situation.
2.Watching and learning isn't a bad suggestion either. Youtube is filled with great examples of DMs (although I'd recommend against him watching critical roll, MM is not to be replicated by the inexperienced) Personally, I think this is a better way to learn by osmosis, because, especially if you're new, it can be hard to see what the DM is thinking from a player's chair. Seeing it from the outside, you get a much better veiw of the pool, so to speak.
3. The issue you have described sounds to me like it's a cousin of "railroading." An "author" DM is generally someone who wants to shove how cool and detailed the world that he's built under your noses... "Railroading" occurs where the DM tries to rob the PCs of their agency (their ability to make choices). Putting them behind the wheel of a module will NOT solve this behavior. It will re-enforce it. Modules and 1 shots, by their very nature can only be written a certain way...and it tends to be very linear. Even the most flexible modules will still be limited in this regard. INSTEAD, he should borrow pieces from existing modules (dungeons, quests, NPCs) and throw them into his world. This will re-enforce the concept of a narrow adventure that occurs within a broader world/context that you want in a setting campaign, and will also give him stronger way points by which he can orient himself as a DM.** It will re-enforce the idea that the players are ALLOWED to be side-tracked and/or do what they want to do, and that he can still be prepared without writing dialogue for you and/or narrating cut-scenes that force a predetermined outcome.
**this is very important. Most people when they sit down to create a world, they start with features... like the mountains to the east or the desert to the south. Then they move on to where the biggest cities are, or what religions are practiced where... etc, etc. These things are basically useless to a DM trying to get his players engaged with his story. Not knowing what's important you can waste a lot of time, and a setting will just grow and grow and grow, and you'll never be any closer to actually running a campaign... but what happens if Gundred rockseeker's brother is at the local tavern and he's worried about his brother (LMoP)? Well, then, our heroes might try to follow his trail? And when they find evidence of a struggle near a goblin outpost? ... ... the adventure writes itself. What if they don't go to the bar? What if they go to the chapel instead? Well, that's fine because at the chapel there's another adventure plundered from somewhere else.
I have had the privilege of sitting in on an "Author" DM's game a few times, I am closely related to said DM, and I can't stand his style. That said, there is nothing wrong with this type of DM, they are just as enthusiastic about the creation as you. The problem that arises from this type of DM is, similar to what DIplomacy has said, it feels very restricted. Once you start to deviate from the path that the DM has envisioned we run into a video game trope "invisible walls". When you decide to look into something that piques your curiosity, and the DM hasn't put that in the itinerary for the day, something stops you dead in your tracks. If you choose to take an action that would remove/reduce the dramatic tension that the DM wants, that action fails in odd ways. This is very, very common with newer DMs and Author DMs, and it's just poorly implemented restrictions that they feel should be in place.
Modules are a good way to give this new DM perspective on pace, structure, design, and how to use the tools at their disposal, but they're not the solution. Learning by doing is another good way, but from what you've given, the DM may not be open to those criticisms that come from this approach. Research into plot development, narrative structure, screen play formats and other types of entertainment mediums will be a huge boon to this newer DM. Listening to the advice from podcasts, youtube, and watching other games will give perspective on how other DMs approach the game. However there is one caveat to all of this: You can led a horse to water but you can't force it to drink.
Communication is the first step to resolving your issue. Talking to the DM and expressing what you, all of you, as players would like from the game is a start. However you'll also have to ask, and listen to what the DM want's from the game as well. From there I'd suggest taking the end of each session and focusing on 1 thing about the night that you really enjoyed and why, as well as 1 thing you didn't enjoy and why. This should create a line of communication that will get everyone on the same wavelength and should promote both DM and Player growth. I had to start doing that with my table, 2 years of gaming, 32ish years of DMing, and I had to stop and open up my ears to my players because I didn't realize I'd been missing some key points that they wanted. I wish you all many successful adventures, and I hope your group grows well.
Not all author type DMs are that way though, and there are plenty of non-author DMs that restrict play to the flow that they deem to be correct. The DM you are describing it the control freak more so than the author. While often a DM that is one is also often the other, to describe them as being the same problem is glazing over those author DMs who write their fantasy world and then let the players run loose in it.
Heyo! I'm here cause I need a little help.
I'm in a group that is being run by a first time dm, ( and I don' begrudge him this were all new once) now this dm is a nice guy and he's really fun.... however he is really really bad a being a dm.
He's trying his best but the sessions allways end up unfulfilling and frustrating. We've tried giving him tips and stuff to help but it's really not helping.
The problem is that he created this awesome and detailed fantasy world ( he's apprently writing a book about it) but then didn't really consider actually incorporating the players characters.. he keeps trying to change the player characters, and true to "win" combat encounters.
Tldr: he's acting like an author, not a dm.
So we've come up with a plan. We're gonna try and convince him to run some modules rather than his original world. ( we are gonna say it' for practicing group cohesion) hopefully having him get some more practice just running a game will make him a better dm..
This is where you come in, I need some advice for good 5e modules for a larger end group of mostly 1-3 rd level characters. This dm dosent like what he terms "boring traditional fantasy tropes" so any adventures that are slightly uncommon would be appreciated.
I would forever be in your guys debt so thanks for any advice!
I disagree. The soul and center of being a DM is being an author. Just not in the traditional fashion. Truth be told, you are more like a primary author, while your players are your co-author. You tell the story of where their character are, what they see, and how the world around them reacts to their actions. They intern fill in the blanks of how the story's main characters (their PCs) behave.
You said he was trying to change the player characters to win encounters. How so?
My advice would be to go ahead and suggest/request the modules, but if this fantasy world is his baby, don't take that away from him. Ask him to modify a module you like so it will fit in the context of his own world.
The single best campaign I ever was part of, as a player, was in a similar world. A buddy of mine was writing a fantasy story, and set a D&D campaign in it in order to look for the gaps in his constructed world. The setting was amazing. The encounters were great. The currency and time systems were interesting. And our characters felt like true heroes. I will never forget those fishy-duck looking humanoids that were the dominant race in our starting area. Good times.
Ongoing Projects: The Mimic Book of Mimics :: SHARK WEEK
Completed Projects: The Trick-or-Treat Table
My Homebrews: Races :: Classes :: Spells :: Items :: Monsters
Look up "Core 1-1: A Scream in the Night" by M. Sean Molley. It would be a good "team building" adventure with lots of fun choices that also subverts an unexpectedly high number of D&D tropes. It also has two follow-up adventures if everyone is still having fun bu the end of it.
I think the general consensus among players online and whom I've spoken to is that the best modules (for any DM; written by WoTC) are storm king's thunder, Curse of Strahd and Lost Mine of Phandelver. Generally, that's what I hear. LMoP is supposed to cap out at around lvl 4 (though it's easy enough to stretch past level 8 if you are a creative type). Curse of Strahd is gothic horror, so, although it starts at level 3 (making it perfect for your situation) it requires more investment/buy-in than high fantasy D&D does. It would be nearly impossible to fold Strahd into something that wasn't already strahd without some huge cataclysmic whiplash inducing event (which is a legitimate story-telling technique, and never let anyone tell you otherwise.)
I have not run SKT.
On the issue of how to take a poor DM and make him a good DM, here are my thoughts.
1. He needs to recognize that the table isn't having fun. Trying to con him into learning how to DM by putting him behind a module isn't a terrible thought, BUT it should come after a frank discussion of the situation.
2.Watching and learning isn't a bad suggestion either. Youtube is filled with great examples of DMs (although I'd recommend against him watching critical roll, MM is not to be replicated by the inexperienced) Personally, I think this is a better way to learn by osmosis, because, especially if you're new, it can be hard to see what the DM is thinking from a player's chair. Seeing it from the outside, you get a much better veiw of the pool, so to speak.
3. The issue you have described sounds to me like it's a cousin of "railroading." An "author" DM is generally someone who wants to shove how cool and detailed the world that he's built under your noses... "Railroading" occurs where the DM tries to rob the PCs of their agency (their ability to make choices). Putting them behind the wheel of a module will NOT solve this behavior. It will re-enforce it. Modules and 1 shots, by their very nature can only be written a certain way...and it tends to be very linear. Even the most flexible modules will still be limited in this regard. INSTEAD, he should borrow pieces from existing modules (dungeons, quests, NPCs) and throw them into his world. This will re-enforce the concept of a narrow adventure that occurs within a broader world/context that you want in a setting campaign, and will also give him stronger way points by which he can orient himself as a DM.** It will re-enforce the idea that the players are ALLOWED to be side-tracked and/or do what they want to do, and that he can still be prepared without writing dialogue for you and/or narrating cut-scenes that force a predetermined outcome.
**this is very important. Most people when they sit down to create a world, they start with features... like the mountains to the east or the desert to the south. Then they move on to where the biggest cities are, or what religions are practiced where... etc, etc. These things are basically useless to a DM trying to get his players engaged with his story. Not knowing what's important you can waste a lot of time, and a setting will just grow and grow and grow, and you'll never be any closer to actually running a campaign... but what happens if Gundred rockseeker's brother is at the local tavern and he's worried about his brother (LMoP)? Well, then, our heroes might try to follow his trail? And when they find evidence of a struggle near a goblin outpost? ... ... the adventure writes itself. What if they don't go to the bar? What if they go to the chapel instead? Well, that's fine because at the chapel there's another adventure plundered from somewhere else.
I have had the privilege of sitting in on an "Author" DM's game a few times, I am closely related to said DM, and I can't stand his style. That said, there is nothing wrong with this type of DM, they are just as enthusiastic about the creation as you. The problem that arises from this type of DM is, similar to what DIplomacy has said, it feels very restricted. Once you start to deviate from the path that the DM has envisioned we run into a video game trope "invisible walls". When you decide to look into something that piques your curiosity, and the DM hasn't put that in the itinerary for the day, something stops you dead in your tracks. If you choose to take an action that would remove/reduce the dramatic tension that the DM wants, that action fails in odd ways. This is very, very common with newer DMs and Author DMs, and it's just poorly implemented restrictions that they feel should be in place.
Modules are a good way to give this new DM perspective on pace, structure, design, and how to use the tools at their disposal, but they're not the solution. Learning by doing is another good way, but from what you've given, the DM may not be open to those criticisms that come from this approach. Research into plot development, narrative structure, screen play formats and other types of entertainment mediums will be a huge boon to this newer DM. Listening to the advice from podcasts, youtube, and watching other games will give perspective on how other DMs approach the game. However there is one caveat to all of this: You can led a horse to water but you can't force it to drink.
Communication is the first step to resolving your issue. Talking to the DM and expressing what you, all of you, as players would like from the game is a start. However you'll also have to ask, and listen to what the DM want's from the game as well. From there I'd suggest taking the end of each session and focusing on 1 thing about the night that you really enjoyed and why, as well as 1 thing you didn't enjoy and why. This should create a line of communication that will get everyone on the same wavelength and should promote both DM and Player growth. I had to start doing that with my table, 2 years of gaming, 32ish years of DMing, and I had to stop and open up my ears to my players because I didn't realize I'd been missing some key points that they wanted. I wish you all many successful adventures, and I hope your group grows well.
Not all author type DMs are that way though, and there are plenty of non-author DMs that restrict play to the flow that they deem to be correct. The DM you are describing it the control freak more so than the author. While often a DM that is one is also often the other, to describe them as being the same problem is glazing over those author DMs who write their fantasy world and then let the players run loose in it.
Ongoing Projects: The Mimic Book of Mimics :: SHARK WEEK
Completed Projects: The Trick-or-Treat Table
My Homebrews: Races :: Classes :: Spells :: Items :: Monsters