I'm DMing a homebrew campaign and I'm a pretty chill DM who isn't out to TPK the party but have fun and make the characters FEEL the combat.
I think I'm pretty good at countering the standard classes but I've got a Level 7 Rune Knight tanking everything and controlling the battlefield more than I would like.
(4) Level 7 characters and an NPC with the Veteran stat block if it matters.
So, first of all, outright nerfing the character can easily lead to the player feeling picked on. Similarly if you engineer all the encounters to attack their weaknesses.
It's entirely possible the solution is social -- talking to the player, and reaching an agreement on how they're going to make sure the other players get to do their things.
It's also possible the character's fine, and you're constructing encounters that play into their strengths. You have a better idea than us of how much variety you have in your encounters, both within a single one (do you have different types of monsters?), and from fight to fight (are the tactical makeups always similar?).
Are the encounters simply too easy?
But let's assume the problem is not so easily solved.
Are the other players trying as hard in combat? If one player is using all their features cleverly, while the rest just roll their attacks and cast basic spells, there may be little to do. (Getting the RK's player to "help" other players use their abilities better rarely goes down well.)
Are the characters at a similar level of optimization? If the RK is running around with carefully coordinated feats and fighting styles, while everyone else just took what seemed cool at the time, then that's likely the problem. You may be able to convince the RK to de-optimize their character in the name of improving fun. Or, if the other players are up for it, help them tune their characters up. (But see previous point.)
Are the other players actually not having fun? If they're more in it for the drama, puzzles, or whatever, while RK likes to engage the fight mechanics, then you might not have a problem.
My players are really great so it isn't really a matter of trying to "nerf" anyone - just create a sense of danger to make fights exciting. I'm probably too much of a softie on them in general so there is that but after two big fights I've noticed that I seem to be able to hit the other characters hard enough to make it interesting/consume their resources enough to make it interesting but not the Rune Knight.
Example: I had a former player running a cleric who had made it tough on me (boring fights) with Spiritual Guardians but I countered with attacks that would trigger concentration checks to try to get it to drop and then have mobs get try to get close for melee once it dropped.
I'm looking for tactical things that I can do to challenge a Rune Knight if I need to, not pick on anyone or "win Dnd".
Is the AC of the Rune Knight far above what the other PCs have for AC? Is that the problem? High AC combined with damage resistance can be an issue (hard to challenge without wiping out those with the lower ACs and lower Hp) If so, adding in a few enemies that don't need attack rolls (magic missile, AoE spells, etc.) can help deliver damage while ignoring AC. Monsters with short range breathe weapons, enemy spellcasters, hold person spells. Heat metal spells - the bane of all front-line fighters. Just add in a few here and there, same with monsters that deal damage whenever someone is near them (Ice Trolls).
Then of course there's always the tried and true, just add more minions to the fight (each gets an attack roll which means another chance to crit even if they normally can't hit the AC). Rune Knight gets to feel powerful mowing down so many minions, but all those attack rolls means more hits get thru. Toss in stuff that gets pact tactics (advantage) on their attacks (doubles the chance for a crit on every attack since they're rolling twice).
If that doesn't do the trick, instead of one big baddie + minions, maybe go with 2 big baddies + minions.
My players are really great so it isn't really a matter of trying to "nerf" anyone - just create a sense of danger to make fights exciting. I'm probably too much of a softie on them in general so there is that but after two big fights I've noticed that I seem to be able to hit the other characters hard enough to make it interesting/consume their resources enough to make it interesting but not the Rune Knight.
Non-damaging effects are the standard way to slow down somebody who's hard to damage. They're typically save-based, and can disable or weaken a character. (And often give the others a chance to pull the victim's fat from the fire.)
But don't overdo it. Mix in some casters, but keep up the damage as well. And if somebody else is being a threat, the casters can target them instead.
Rune Knights are solidly good, but not super builds. They have the normal weaknesses of fighters -- they have no area options so swarms of minor foes are a problem, and assuming they're strength based, no particularly good ranged options. The problem might just be level 7 PCs, it's hard to meaningfully challenge higher level characters with anything close to recommended encounter budgets.
Attack the character in weaker defenses. it sounds as though you're struggling to get through his AC. So, throw some magic using enemies at them that happen to attack his weaker saving throws.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Your players (including the RK) will have a tough time controlling the battlefield and dodging threats if they can't see. Introduce patches of darkness, heavy fog, flash grenade spells, baddies with cover, baddies with camouflage. Bonus points if they have pack tactics or clever strategy to take advantage of superior numbers.
Also, don't forget about mobility. It's harder to control a battlefield whose agents are constantly and unpredictably moving. Give your enemies teleportation abilities, concealment spells (like Blink, Greater Invisibility, Mirror Image, Invoke Duplicity), flyby, cunning actions, incorporeal movement, etc. Be slippery, stay slippery. And, when in doubt. hit the RK with a mind whammy and make them fight their friends or run away in fear.
As others have mentioned, pepper these changes in. Design some encounters to let the RK shine, design others that test the character's limits.
Another thing is to make sure all the RK abilities are being used correctly and are understood by both you and the player. There was another thread recently where someone was claiming Enlarge/Reduce was breaking their game, but on second glance it looked like the problem was entirely due to an erroneous reading of what the spell actually did.
Rune Knight specifically has a lot of noodley modular bits, so it might be a good idea to read up on the ones your player is using to make sure they're not exploiting a misread mechanic or something.
My players are really great so it isn't really a matter of trying to "nerf" anyone - just create a sense of danger to make fights exciting. I'm probably too much of a softie on them in general so there is that but after two big fights I've noticed that I seem to be able to hit the other characters hard enough to make it interesting/consume their resources enough to make it interesting but not the Rune Knight.
Example: I had a former player running a cleric who had made it tough on me (boring fights) with Spiritual Guardians but I countered with attacks that would trigger concentration checks to try to get it to drop and then have mobs get try to get close for melee once it dropped.
I'm looking for tactical things that I can do to challenge a Rune Knight if I need to, not pick on anyone or "win Dnd".
What about the Rune Knight is problematic? By design, Fighters in general don't have much in the way of "resources" to "use up", that's kind of the point of the class - they are always ready to fight and a pretty good at it. The main ways to "counter" them is just to deny them the ability to act in combat - hypnotize, charm, fear, paralyze etc.. - but you need to be careful doing that because it isn't fun like when a spellcaster has to change tactic because their big spell got dropped, it just means the player is sitting around doing nothing which is extremely unfun.
If your goal is to make them think creatively, or change up their tactics, you want to give the enemies more mobility or use terrain so that the fighter needs to figure out how to get to the enemies or make the enemies come to them. Flight, short-range teleporation, barriers / walls that the enemies shoot from behind, enemies that burrow or swim, patches of toxic swamp or quicksand, etc... are much better as a fun challenge for a fighter.
I too am curious as t owhat the Rune Knight is doing exactly which is making them a problem!
Rune knights tend to do decent damage, get large, and focus on melee, and have a high AC. If this is the case:
1: Use magic. Spells with saves, abilities with saves, anything saves and the AC becomes irrelevant. There should be a mix of this in the world. If you're playing low magic, then include other saves - nets which need saves to avoid or escape, sprays of caustic potions/chemicals, firebombs, that sort of thing.
2: Use maneuvrability. Flying enemies with Flyby are a real challenge if used correctly - and a good excercise in held actions for the players. Incorporeal creatures like Ghosts are also quite interesting.
3: Use abilities. There's nothing wrong with tailor-making a challenge for a particular player, provided that they aren't always the one being challenged. Examples might be an expert swordsperson who can disarm their enemies, or a creature with the ability to stun anything nearby like an electric eel. One of the most important things I aim for as a DM is building encounters which challenge the party to try different things, rather than their tried and tested approaches. I mix these in as about 40%ish, I'd say, of encounters, so they can still do the cool things their characters were built to do more than half the time, but sometimes they have to switch it up. A chief example was that their tactics were all about the barbarian charging forwards, so I had a wizard with dominate monster prepared. That made things a bit more of a challenge! Don't pull out anything that removes their agency too often though, or it'll suck for them. Focus on invalidating their normal tactics rather than their entire character!
For more detailed answers, you need to work out what it is you don't like about the rune knight - too hard to hit, too hard to survive? Or is it just that the monsters all swarm at the closest enemy? Why would a Goblin attack a giant knight if there's a squishy wizard behind them?
Thank you all so much for the input - this has been really helpful!
My intent is exactly what many of you commented on - create challenges, present a sense of danger, and create heroic moments.
I'm so focused on keeping combat moving that I can't say that I'm taking the time to assess exactly what is presenting the challenges but generally I find that AC and resistances are what I believe I'm struggling with.
Flyby, Misty Step, ranged attacks and saving throws that avoid Con are great suggestions.
DMs,
I'm DMing a homebrew campaign and I'm a pretty chill DM who isn't out to TPK the party but have fun and make the characters FEEL the combat.
I think I'm pretty good at countering the standard classes but I've got a Level 7 Rune Knight tanking everything and controlling the battlefield more than I would like.
(4) Level 7 characters and an NPC with the Veteran stat block if it matters.
Ideas?
So, first of all, outright nerfing the character can easily lead to the player feeling picked on. Similarly if you engineer all the encounters to attack their weaknesses.
It's entirely possible the solution is social -- talking to the player, and reaching an agreement on how they're going to make sure the other players get to do their things.
It's also possible the character's fine, and you're constructing encounters that play into their strengths. You have a better idea than us of how much variety you have in your encounters, both within a single one (do you have different types of monsters?), and from fight to fight (are the tactical makeups always similar?).
Are the encounters simply too easy?
But let's assume the problem is not so easily solved.
Are the other players trying as hard in combat? If one player is using all their features cleverly, while the rest just roll their attacks and cast basic spells, there may be little to do. (Getting the RK's player to "help" other players use their abilities better rarely goes down well.)
Are the characters at a similar level of optimization? If the RK is running around with carefully coordinated feats and fighting styles, while everyone else just took what seemed cool at the time, then that's likely the problem. You may be able to convince the RK to de-optimize their character in the name of improving fun. Or, if the other players are up for it, help them tune their characters up. (But see previous point.)
Are the other players actually not having fun? If they're more in it for the drama, puzzles, or whatever, while RK likes to engage the fight mechanics, then you might not have a problem.
Thanks for the input. I really appreciate it.
My players are really great so it isn't really a matter of trying to "nerf" anyone - just create a sense of danger to make fights exciting. I'm probably too much of a softie on them in general so there is that but after two big fights I've noticed that I seem to be able to hit the other characters hard enough to make it interesting/consume their resources enough to make it interesting but not the Rune Knight.
Example:
I had a former player running a cleric who had made it tough on me (boring fights) with Spiritual Guardians but I countered with attacks that would trigger concentration checks to try to get it to drop and then have mobs get try to get close for melee once it dropped.
I'm looking for tactical things that I can do to challenge a Rune Knight if I need to, not pick on anyone or "win Dnd".
Is the AC of the Rune Knight far above what the other PCs have for AC? Is that the problem? High AC combined with damage resistance can be an issue (hard to challenge without wiping out those with the lower ACs and lower Hp) If so, adding in a few enemies that don't need attack rolls (magic missile, AoE spells, etc.) can help deliver damage while ignoring AC. Monsters with short range breathe weapons, enemy spellcasters, hold person spells. Heat metal spells - the bane of all front-line fighters. Just add in a few here and there, same with monsters that deal damage whenever someone is near them (Ice Trolls).
Then of course there's always the tried and true, just add more minions to the fight (each gets an attack roll which means another chance to crit even if they normally can't hit the AC). Rune Knight gets to feel powerful mowing down so many minions, but all those attack rolls means more hits get thru. Toss in stuff that gets pact tactics (advantage) on their attacks (doubles the chance for a crit on every attack since they're rolling twice).
If that doesn't do the trick, instead of one big baddie + minions, maybe go with 2 big baddies + minions.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Non-damaging effects are the standard way to slow down somebody who's hard to damage. They're typically save-based, and can disable or weaken a character. (And often give the others a chance to pull the victim's fat from the fire.)
But don't overdo it. Mix in some casters, but keep up the damage as well. And if somebody else is being a threat, the casters can target them instead.
tell us what the rune knight is doing that’s so OP
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
Rune Knights are solidly good, but not super builds. They have the normal weaknesses of fighters -- they have no area options so swarms of minor foes are a problem, and assuming they're strength based, no particularly good ranged options. The problem might just be level 7 PCs, it's hard to meaningfully challenge higher level characters with anything close to recommended encounter budgets.
Attack the character in weaker defenses. it sounds as though you're struggling to get through his AC. So, throw some magic using enemies at them that happen to attack his weaker saving throws.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Hello Darkness, my old friend...
Your players (including the RK) will have a tough time controlling the battlefield and dodging threats if they can't see. Introduce patches of darkness, heavy fog, flash grenade spells, baddies with cover, baddies with camouflage. Bonus points if they have pack tactics or clever strategy to take advantage of superior numbers.
Also, don't forget about mobility. It's harder to control a battlefield whose agents are constantly and unpredictably moving. Give your enemies teleportation abilities, concealment spells (like Blink, Greater Invisibility, Mirror Image, Invoke Duplicity), flyby, cunning actions, incorporeal movement, etc. Be slippery, stay slippery. And, when in doubt. hit the RK with a mind whammy and make them fight their friends or run away in fear.
As others have mentioned, pepper these changes in. Design some encounters to let the RK shine, design others that test the character's limits.
Another thing is to make sure all the RK abilities are being used correctly and are understood by both you and the player. There was another thread recently where someone was claiming Enlarge/Reduce was breaking their game, but on second glance it looked like the problem was entirely due to an erroneous reading of what the spell actually did.
Rune Knight specifically has a lot of noodley modular bits, so it might be a good idea to read up on the ones your player is using to make sure they're not exploiting a misread mechanic or something.
What about the Rune Knight is problematic? By design, Fighters in general don't have much in the way of "resources" to "use up", that's kind of the point of the class - they are always ready to fight and a pretty good at it. The main ways to "counter" them is just to deny them the ability to act in combat - hypnotize, charm, fear, paralyze etc.. - but you need to be careful doing that because it isn't fun like when a spellcaster has to change tactic because their big spell got dropped, it just means the player is sitting around doing nothing which is extremely unfun.
If your goal is to make them think creatively, or change up their tactics, you want to give the enemies more mobility or use terrain so that the fighter needs to figure out how to get to the enemies or make the enemies come to them. Flight, short-range teleporation, barriers / walls that the enemies shoot from behind, enemies that burrow or swim, patches of toxic swamp or quicksand, etc... are much better as a fun challenge for a fighter.
I too am curious as t owhat the Rune Knight is doing exactly which is making them a problem!
Rune knights tend to do decent damage, get large, and focus on melee, and have a high AC. If this is the case:
1: Use magic. Spells with saves, abilities with saves, anything saves and the AC becomes irrelevant. There should be a mix of this in the world. If you're playing low magic, then include other saves - nets which need saves to avoid or escape, sprays of caustic potions/chemicals, firebombs, that sort of thing.
2: Use maneuvrability. Flying enemies with Flyby are a real challenge if used correctly - and a good excercise in held actions for the players. Incorporeal creatures like Ghosts are also quite interesting.
3: Use abilities. There's nothing wrong with tailor-making a challenge for a particular player, provided that they aren't always the one being challenged. Examples might be an expert swordsperson who can disarm their enemies, or a creature with the ability to stun anything nearby like an electric eel. One of the most important things I aim for as a DM is building encounters which challenge the party to try different things, rather than their tried and tested approaches. I mix these in as about 40%ish, I'd say, of encounters, so they can still do the cool things their characters were built to do more than half the time, but sometimes they have to switch it up. A chief example was that their tactics were all about the barbarian charging forwards, so I had a wizard with dominate monster prepared. That made things a bit more of a challenge! Don't pull out anything that removes their agency too often though, or it'll suck for them. Focus on invalidating their normal tactics rather than their entire character!
For more detailed answers, you need to work out what it is you don't like about the rune knight - too hard to hit, too hard to survive? Or is it just that the monsters all swarm at the closest enemy? Why would a Goblin attack a giant knight if there's a squishy wizard behind them?
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Thank you all so much for the input - this has been really helpful!
My intent is exactly what many of you commented on - create challenges, present a sense of danger, and create heroic moments.
I'm so focused on keeping combat moving that I can't say that I'm taking the time to assess exactly what is presenting the challenges but generally I find that AC and resistances are what I believe I'm struggling with.
Flyby, Misty Step, ranged attacks and saving throws that avoid Con are great suggestions.
Being a Rune Knight.
Seriously, my Goliath Rune Knight was op... And he wasnt optimized at all. If I had optimized him he would have been 10x worse.