In my last D&D session, my players (5 level 7 characters: Druid, Druid/Barbarian, Bard, Warlock, Paladin) complained about combat taking too long. They summoned two bears and a Barlgura, and faced a hag coven (with legendary and lair actions) plus minions (5 ghouls, 4 werewolves), totaling 20 combatants. I used Dwarven Forge terrain, requiring rulers for movement and ranged attacks, which slowed things down. One player (flying Warlock) mocked the pace, saying, “Watch how quick my turn is,” while simply staying airborne and casting Eldritch Blast. Another player often hides, adding complexity. Combat lasted three rounds (about 2.5–3 hours), and I ended it early by having the hags offer a deal due to the complaints.
I’m managing 12 NPCs plus legendary/lair actions, while players only handle their own characters. Reducing combatants risks them steamrolling encounters unless it’s a BBEG, and I already plan tactics in advance. How do you handle slow combat with large groups? How can I address players who don’t see the DM’s workload and complain about pacing?
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‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
That's a tough situation and I don't have any definitive answers. One suggestion I can make is that if you're going to rely on large numbers, you should probably cut Legendary and Lair actions. Legendary creatures are normally meant to be a threat on their own, which is why they get so many extra actions and ways to cheat their way out of really bad situations (Legendary Resistance.) Ultimately though it's probably better to rely on a small number of high CR monsters than to manage a dozen monsters and all of the resulting rolls, not just from their own actions but also when they get caught in area effects. You might also want to crack down on the player side of things and institute a time limit for players to declare their actions. They might chafe at that, but they'd probably prefer it to taking 1 turn per hour.
First off, I’d say 5 PCs isn’t all that large. But when they start summoning things, it really can be a mess. First thing is maybe to mention that to them, the number of summons will slow things down.
Measuring really also slows things. I have a couple suggestions there. Cut a couple lengths of string at 6” and let the players use that to determine how far they move. (If you have characters with move speeds other than 30’, cut appropriate length strings.) String is better than sticks as you can bend it around corners as such. Also, my group has some templates we got on Amazon with the basic spell shapes — clear plastic with 20’ radius, 10’ cube etc. that really helps figure out who is in a spell or not. But I have to say, I also play on dwarven forge, and we find it’s generally easy to see where the squares are and just use that built in grid.
Besides that general advice, there’s two more specific things. You, as the DM, should use fewer monsters. Use fewer, higher CR enemies and will speed things up dramatically, and if they’re higher CR the PCs still shouldn’t steamroll things. Because, your players have a point. In the DM’s chair, it’s easy to lose sight of how infrequently a player does much. You are constantly doing something, tracking monster hp, making attacks, making rulings; you as a DM are part of every turn everyone takes. In your example, in a 2.5-3 hour session, it lasted 3 rounds. Meaning while you were constantly doing something, each player got 3 turns (plus maybe a reaction or two or managing a summon) over the course of about 3 hours. Mostly though, they got to do one thing per hour. That’s a lot of time spent just kind of sitting there, waiting for a chance to do the cool thing you get to do as a player. Yes, they need to have patience, but there’s a limit to everything. So use fewer, tougher monsters, and see if they’ll maybe cool it on the summons.
But the issue of players not realizing the complexity of DMing is real which brings me to the second specific idea. About the only thing there is an out of combat talk about the challenges you face as a DM, and ask them to bear with you as you try to keep things moving.
One thing you didn’t say is if any individual turn is taking a long time. Are there issues with a player or two having analysis paralysis and taking unusually long turns? You might have a talk with them individually and ask if there’s anything you can do to help them make up their minds faster.
As mentioned it is a challenging situation. However, that said, both the DM and players can make it go much quicker.
As DM ...
1) Don't spend time finding the optimal response for the NPCs. When it is their turn pick an action, execute it, resolve effects, move on.
2) When resolving an NPCs actions, try to roll all the dice you need at once. Most DMs have lots of dice. If the veteran has 3 long sword attacks each doing d8+3 then roll three sets of colour coordinated dice .. d20 and d8 .. and apply the results. For large combats it is essential to get the die rolling and decision making time to an absolute minimum.
As a player .. the rules are the same :)
1) Don't spend a lot of time figuring out what to do. If you are thinking about casting a spell, you should look it up LONG before your turn comes around. Similarly, if the player has been playing for at least a few weeks, they shouldn't be referring back to their character sheet to find proficiency bonus, stat modifier, working out they have +7, then roll a d20 and count on their fingers to get a total of 19 after they roll a 12. If a player finds the mental math to be challenging (which is fine) then either the player or the DM should consider using/setting up an app that does the die rolls for them by clicking the correct button.
Combat is limited to 6 seconds - if a character wants to use a bonus action to hide then they roll a d20, add stealth skill, and the DM can say whether they successfully hide or not. With the 6 second limitation, players don't have a lot of time for complex actions that are challenging to resolve. If the DM is allowing the player to do lots of stuff on their turn then they need to consider whether those tasks can reasonably be accomplished in the time limit.
2) Roll all your dice at once. In the example of the flying warlock cited above - their turn is going by quickly BECAUSE they know what they are going to do - not because they are only choosing to cast Eldritch blast. Eldritch blast requires as many dice as a typically martial character in tier 2 with extra attack. 80% of the time (or more) characters are just attacking on their turn. Every character should be just as quick as the warlock most of the time. Making their turn efficient can be done by rolling the d20 and d10 at the same time. After the first combat round, anyone who is paying attention will have a decent idea of what they need to roll to hit - they may not even need to ask the DM and can just say "I missed" or "I rolled a 21 for 12 damage". If a player doesn't have to ask the DM and the DM knows it ... why bother spending the time with that meaningless conversation?
As an example, I've played with some really nice people who aren't good at math, whose memory wasn't that great or they didn't want to memorize a few numbers ... so their combat round was ... roll d20 .. look at character sheet for modifier ... figure out final to hit number ... ask the DM if it hits ... if yes, search for the required damage die and roll it ... look at the character sheet for the damage modifier ... take a few seconds to add it up in their head then tell the DM "I did X damage" ... this entire process then repeated at the same pace ... on Each and Every combat round. Their turn typically took 5 times longer than mine just from rolling dice. Or as an example of what to do .. there was a character who played a druid using Conjure animals. They would summon up 2-4 Deinoychus ... each has 3 attacks. This can be a recipe for extremely slow play ... but in their case, they had LOTS of dice so they had colour coordinated d20 and damage dice for each bite and claw from each of their summoned creatures ... they also knew the to hit and damage modifiers ... so they rolled 12-24 dice all at the same time ... were able to rattle off all the to hit numbers just glancing at the d20s and then recite the damage for each by looking at the matching dice. Their turn was only somewhat longer than mine with just two attacks and far shorter than the player in the first example.
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In terms of additional DM work required to run such a battle - KNOW the NPCs/monsters before the fight starts - this requires preparation. If the DM has to look up each NPC stat block to figure out what the NPC will do that turn ... it takes time.
Have an efficient method for tracking initiative so that you aren't constantly referring to something else to figure out turn order and which of the NPCs goes next.
Have an efficient method for tracking hit points and status conditions for both NPCs and PCs.
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I've run many large combats when playing online. The reason they work is BECAUSE the VTT provides the efficiency in dice rolling, applying damage, recording status, and tracking initiative - leaving decision time as the primary slow down factor. Encouraging folks to be efficient and pay attention helps in both online and in person play but it is more difficult (but possible) to optimize the other aspects when playing in person.
P.S. You mentioned "I used Dwarven Forge terrain, requiring rulers for movement and ranged attacks, which slowed things down." ... this is one aspect you might want to work on making more efficient. Don't use a ruler ... the game is not a simulator. Have a piece of string that is the equivalent of 30', another for 60', 80' and any other important range for the scale of the map. Use the string to figure out how far a character can move ... or whether something is within normal or long range. If a target is closer than the length of the string then it is within range. If there is stuff in the way then the DM decides if it is 1/2 or 3/4 cover. If you have to pull out rulers ... then perhaps folks are taking the distance aspect a bit too seriously :).
I’m managing 12 NPCs plus legendary/lair actions, while players only handle their own characters. Reducing combatants risks them steamrolling encounters unless it’s a BBEG, and I already plan tactics in advance. How do you handle slow combat with large groups? How can I address players who don’t see the DM’s workload and complain about pacing?
Well, adjusting your encounters should simplify matters; you did choose monsters that are a bit sloggy. Replace 5 ghouls and 4 werewolves with 4 flameskulls and it will be a lot less sloggy.
Just to specify, by rulers I mean that we have a pre-cut “30 ft” spell effect that we use for measuring. What does slow things down with that is when their are characters flying and I have some players that will pull out the pythagorean theorem to measure…some very good ideas though that I will implement. Thanks.
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‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
Just to specify, by rulers I mean that we have a pre-cut “30 ft” spell effect that we use for measuring. What does slow things down with that is when their are characters flying and I have some players that will pull out the pythagorean theorem to measure…some very good ideas though that I will implement. Thanks.
For flying, just break math. Five feet up or down is five feet of movement. Horizontal movement is managed just like anybody else's. Do the same for ranges.
Does that give them a bit more movement? Yes, but it's countered by the increase of ranges.
Either that, or find somebody to 3d print you some kind of to-scale miniature stands, and use string like others have suggested.
1) Group enemies up into blocks, so e.g. you have an initiative tracker that looks like : player 1, player 2, all ghouls, player 3, all werewolves, player 4, player 5, all hags. 2) Don't roll initiative for the enemies, instead have the player roll initiative and stagger the enemies from highest Dex to lowest Dex between the player turns.
Reasons: breaking up player turns gives players more time to plan their turns while you are running enemies and ensure there is always about to be a player turn so the players aren't ever just sitting around for 30 minutes while the DM plays.
3) Using #1 also allows the DM to use digital dice rollers to roll all the attacks & damage at once, then just go down the list of attacks while moving the enemies & determining who the victim is for each attack. -> digital dice rollers will also do the math for you again speeding things up. 4) Simplify the monsters, rather than having to look up the "to hit" and damage rolls for each individual monster / monster-type simplify them down, if the monsters you picked have +4/+5/+6 to hit, just give them all +5 to hit, if they have DC 14/DC15/DC16 abilities, just make all the DCs 15. Similarly, if the damage rolls for various monsters are 1d6+4, 1d8+3, 1d10+3 etc... just simplify it down to all being 1d8+3. Small difference like this do not matter in a few rounds of combat, so make your life easier. Same can be done for saving throw, rather than +2/+3/+4 saves just make them all +3.
5) As others have mentioned use string / bits of paper for measuring, but beyond what other have suggested : create templates for each size / area, and give them to each of the players and tell them that they are responsible for having the template for their spell at the ready for measuring. If they don't have it at the ready then you're going to make a quick guess at who is/isn't in it to keep the combat moving. Remember: people in life/death combat aren't going to be 100% perfectly precise, so perfect placement / measuring isn't realistic.
6) Don't worry about perfect strategy, again combat is mostly chaos NPCs aren't going to be making perfect strategic decisions either.
For flying, first I agree 100% with jl8e. Don’t worry about angles just count out the squares on the ground and call it good. Its close enough, and reducing the amount of geometry homework you do will really speed things up.
I’ve been using minis on top of legos lately for height. One brick =5 feet. It’s not to scale, but it’s been really easy to remember and easy to add and remove them to adjust heights. It will be a bit out of place on dwarven forge, but it might help.
I run a group of 9 players and a lot of the advice I'd offer is the same as above - less monsters encourage the players to plan ahead (especially the player(s) with summons), etc
Do you give the players a heads up before their turn to remind them to start planning - like ok it's werewolf B's turn, John you're on deck?
Some things I think I haven't been suggested that I [sometimes] do are:
Give the monsters/enemies less HP and up their damage - this will make the fights go faster & give it a nice edge of tension/doesn't feel like a steamroll.
Upgrade the monsters - rather than large groups, make the minions stronger.
Swarms - whenever I want to simulate my players fighting a large group of mobs, I make the monsters into a swarm. I tend to drop the BPS resistance & instead of doing half damage I reduce the number of attacks/damage for every 'enemy' killed (every 10th of HP one member of the swarm dies - this is to stop the swarm being too powerful & killing the players a lot more effectively than they would as individuals), I also multiply the damage & increase the CR but normally I don't increase the to hit bonus/saving throw because I find that tends to make them more powerful than they would be as individuals & => too dangerous.
Rather than dice rolling for monsters vs NPCs/summons, just remove say 2 werewolves & 2 bears from the fight & say they're fighting each other (and decide the outcome based on how the party does rather than dice rolling.
Offer suggestions if they're struggling - when my players are really unsure what to do, I point out what's happening around them & what they can do - that does help somewhat, but beware, it can sometimes add to the confusion by giving them more things to think about.
Track the monsters states/hp, etc & initiative on paper - i find this so much faster than clicking a button, clicking HP, pressing plus or minus, pressing the number keys, etc.
For the flying thing, I do want to say, I do what was suggested above. We used to do the whole complicated trigonometry thing in my group but our general experience was, the distance on the diagonal was generally roughly the same as it would be horizontally - so if they're say 40 away horizontally and then 30 ft in the air, I say they're 40ft away diagonally as well - not 100% sure is this accurate all the time, but it's a lot more efficient than trigonometry.
For the flying thing, I do want to say, I do what was suggested above. We used to do the whole complicated trigonometry thing in my group but our general experience was, the distance on the diagonal was generally roughly the same as it would be horizontally - so if they're say 40 away horizontally and then 30 ft in the air, I say they're 40ft away diagonally as well - not 100% sure is this accurate all the time, but it's a lot more efficient than trigonometry.
It's totally not accurate, but it's how things work if you're doing grid movement. (In actual trig, they're 50 feet away, but you usually aren't using the one triangle that everybody who remembers any trig remembers, so it's a lot harder than that one.)
For flying, first I agree 100% with jl8e. Don’t worry about angles just count out the squares on the ground and call it good. Its close enough, and reducing the amount of geometry homework you do will really speed things up.
I’ve been using minis on top of legos lately for height. One brick =5 feet. It’s not to scale, but it’s been really easy to remember and easy to add and remove them to adjust heights. It will be a bit out of place on dwarven forge, but it might help.
I often just put a dice under the mini - usually a d6 - and use the number to indicate height in 5' or 10' increments. I find it easier to just flip the die to a different side than try to find a stand of a different height :)
Also, as suggested, don't worry about accuracy on diagonals. If unrealistic diagonal geometry really bothers you ... you can always use the 1.5 to 1 suggestion in the DMG (2014 at least) and then just approximate it. The time required for accurate diagonal vertical movement isn't worth it (and many tables don't even bother with accurate 2D diagonal movement anyway).
In my last D&D session, my players (5 level 7 characters: Druid, Druid/Barbarian, Bard, Warlock, Paladin) complained about combat taking too long. They summoned two bears and a Barlgura, and faced a hag coven (with legendary and lair actions) plus minions (5 ghouls, 4 werewolves), totaling 20 combatants. I used Dwarven Forge terrain, requiring rulers for movement and ranged attacks, which slowed things down. One player (flying Warlock) mocked the pace, saying, “Watch how quick my turn is,” while simply staying airborne and casting Eldritch Blast. Another player often hides, adding complexity. Combat lasted three rounds (about 2.5–3 hours), and I ended it early by having the hags offer a deal due to the complaints.
I’m managing 12 NPCs plus legendary/lair actions, while players only handle their own characters. Reducing combatants risks them steamrolling encounters unless it’s a BBEG, and I already plan tactics in advance. How do you handle slow combat with large groups? How can I address players who don’t see the DM’s workload and complain about pacing?
The simple reality is that 5e combat feels slow because it is slow and a DM has a big workload when running 5e D&D because... thats the way it is.
I'm not suggesting there aren't ways to speed things up a bit, there are and there are certainly shortcuts you can take to lighten the load, because they do exist.. but it only takes a courtesy reading of the suggestions to realize that implementing these things that expedite the game, is to effectively not play the game as designed.
It's a bit like saying, you can play golf a lot faster if you play 9 holes instead of 18, and if you go over a par, you just pick up the ball and move on to the next hole. Sure you could do that, but are you still experiencing golf? Technically, you are.. but it's not exactly what I think people are looking for as an answer.. aka, gut the game so that you can play it faster.
In my experience what is "slow combat" is a matter of perception; every group is different. Some groups have more patience, some less. The same is true about DM workload, some DM love spending countless hours preparing, fine-tuning, tinkering, some don't.
My suggestion, which I think is going to be a bit controversial, but I think its the best approach is to not think of D&D as 5e D&D and just think of D&D as a fantasy adventure role-playing, something that can be achieved in a wide range of ways and there are many different D&D like systems that are going to be better suited for different groups.
I think the issue is that many people play only 5e D&D exclusively and they see any issues that they have in their game or in their group as something that must be solved in the scope of that system.
Remove that requirement and a whole new world opens up.
For example if you want a much faster combat system but still have class-based D&D, Castles and Crusades is an option. If you want more gritty D&D, faster with a much lighter loader but still 5e, Shadowdark might be a good option. Perhaps your favorite part about D&D isn't combat but narrative stories and you just want to get combat done quickly... Daggerheart might be for you.
There are a lot of systems out there that do D&D in a wide range of ways and I find typically for most 5e groups who find fault in the game, the solution isn't workarounds, and clever disections or heavy rules adaptions forced into a system and its just better to try out other system until you find one that works well for your groups style of play and preferences.
1) Group enemies up into blocks, so e.g. you have an initiative tracker that looks like : player 1, player 2, all ghouls, player 3, all werewolves, player 4, player 5, all hags.
I think the issue is that many people play only 5e D&D exclusively and they see any issues that they have in their game or in their group as something that must be solved in the scope of that system.
Telling people "play a different game system" is fairly unhelpful. Very few game systems will handle 20 combatants particularly well, finishing in 3 hours is pretty decent. That said, there certainly are things that you can do to streamline things.
Use glass cannon monsters; dead monsters are fast to resolve, and giving them high damage output means they still remain relevant (this may require custom monsters).
Discourage use of summons (ways of breaking concentration are generally desirable).
Use simple monsters; monsters with fewer attacks and fewer options are easier to resolve (this may also require custom monsters).
Consider limiting your use of crafted terrain. If you are going to use it, consider using string to measure distance (either have a set of strings of known length, or one string with knots at appropriate points).
Batch your rolls. If the same thing is happening five times, you can just roll 5d20 and count successes.
In the past, many times the players are the one slowing the combat, not the DM. The slowest players are usually the Mage classes.
So while their are things you can do, the players can be faster as well. Bring a chess clock. The players have to get their actions in before the time is spent. If they are fast like the warlock, then they leave time (which is lost) and the clock is reset. By getting the players to speed up, it will deflect the complaints about you. Some players may be thinking of what they want to do instead of thinking how long this takes.
Combat lasted three rounds (about 2.5–3 hours),
That is a very long time.
Another player often hides, adding complexity.
Actually it is not adding anything, if they hid and do nothing, then they are ignored and that portion is skipped and and completed very quickly.
How can I address players who don’t see the DM’s workload and complain about pacing?
They can be the target of the monsters.
You have 12 NPCs that help the party? In combat, they should cease to be of any assistance. Do not target them and have them move away. Combat is with the players and monsters. The other speed up is choosing the monsters choice of target. Just always choose the closest player to the weapon used. There is no wrong target, and you will do this with out thinking.
I think the issue is that many people play only 5e D&D exclusively and they see any issues that they have in their game or in their group as something that must be solved in the scope of that system.
Telling people "play a different game system" is fairly unhelpful. Very few game systems will handle 20 combatants particularly well, finishing in 3 hours is pretty decent. That said, there certainly are things that you can do to streamline things.
The way I see it, when the system you're using doesn't deliver the kind of game you want, you have only 3 possible options to solve this issue.
1. You alter the game itself or method of playing it, as is being suggested by most here. 2. Accept it and live with it 3. Pick a system that creates the playstyle you're interested.
So far as I can see, everyone else has options 1 and 2 covered in their posts, I didn't see anyone mention alternative 3 which is actually, simplest and most direct way to solve the problem.
5e is what it is, it plays the way it plays. If that doesn't work for you, why tamper with it, why not just find a fantasy system that delivers what you are looking for? Why try to figure out a way to force a game to do something it's not designed to do? 5e has slow, tactical combat, it's how it's designed, this is not a bug, it's not a problem to solve, it's a feature of the game. Many people like it, the OP's players clearly don't.
Not ALL systems are designed to have fast combat and/or handle lots of combatants, but there are plenty to choose from that do. Really, I don't think its physically possible for anyone to describe a playstyle they are interested in that isn't covered by one of the many RPG's out there. D&D 5e is not the only D&D in the RPG hobby, there are lots of them out there, hell there are better versions of D&D 5e out there these days.
And for the record, I disagree wholeheartedly that 3 hours is an acceptable time frame for a D&D battle.. ever.. under any circumstance. That is absolutely ridiculous; that is effectively an entire session just doing combat. If I were in that group, I would be complaining too. I mean, he said 3 rounds of combat for 5 players in 3 hours. That means the average player was waiting 36 minutes to take an action, and in that 3-hour period got to take 3 actions; that is the stuff of RPG nightmares. That is not fun D&D
In my last D&D session, my players (5 level 7 characters: Druid, Druid/Barbarian, Bard, Warlock, Paladin) complained about combat taking too long. They summoned two bears and a Barlgura, and faced a hag coven (with legendary and lair actions) plus minions (5 ghouls, 4 werewolves), totaling 20 combatants. I used Dwarven Forge terrain, requiring rulers for movement and ranged attacks, which slowed things down. One player (flying Warlock) mocked the pace, saying, “Watch how quick my turn is,” while simply staying airborne and casting Eldritch Blast. Another player often hides, adding complexity. Combat lasted three rounds (about 2.5–3 hours), and I ended it early by having the hags offer a deal due to the complaints.
I’m managing 12 NPCs plus legendary/lair actions, while players only handle their own characters. Reducing combatants risks them steamrolling encounters unless it’s a BBEG, and I already plan tactics in advance. How do you handle slow combat with large groups? How can I address players who don’t see the DM’s workload and complain about pacing?
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
That's a tough situation and I don't have any definitive answers. One suggestion I can make is that if you're going to rely on large numbers, you should probably cut Legendary and Lair actions. Legendary creatures are normally meant to be a threat on their own, which is why they get so many extra actions and ways to cheat their way out of really bad situations (Legendary Resistance.) Ultimately though it's probably better to rely on a small number of high CR monsters than to manage a dozen monsters and all of the resulting rolls, not just from their own actions but also when they get caught in area effects. You might also want to crack down on the player side of things and institute a time limit for players to declare their actions. They might chafe at that, but they'd probably prefer it to taking 1 turn per hour.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
First off, I’d say 5 PCs isn’t all that large. But when they start summoning things, it really can be a mess. First thing is maybe to mention that to them, the number of summons will slow things down.
Measuring really also slows things. I have a couple suggestions there. Cut a couple lengths of string at 6” and let the players use that to determine how far they move. (If you have characters with move speeds other than 30’, cut appropriate length strings.) String is better than sticks as you can bend it around corners as such. Also, my group has some templates we got on Amazon with the basic spell shapes — clear plastic with 20’ radius, 10’ cube etc. that really helps figure out who is in a spell or not. But I have to say, I also play on dwarven forge, and we find it’s generally easy to see where the squares are and just use that built in grid.
Besides that general advice, there’s two more specific things. You, as the DM, should use fewer monsters. Use fewer, higher CR enemies and will speed things up dramatically, and if they’re higher CR the PCs still shouldn’t steamroll things. Because, your players have a point. In the DM’s chair, it’s easy to lose sight of how infrequently a player does much. You are constantly doing something, tracking monster hp, making attacks, making rulings; you as a DM are part of every turn everyone takes. In your example, in a 2.5-3 hour session, it lasted 3 rounds. Meaning while you were constantly doing something, each player got 3 turns (plus maybe a reaction or two or managing a summon) over the course of about 3 hours. Mostly though, they got to do one thing per hour. That’s a lot of time spent just kind of sitting there, waiting for a chance to do the cool thing you get to do as a player. Yes, they need to have patience, but there’s a limit to everything. So use fewer, tougher monsters, and see if they’ll maybe cool it on the summons.
But the issue of players not realizing the complexity of DMing is real which brings me to the second specific idea. About the only thing there is an out of combat talk about the challenges you face as a DM, and ask them to bear with you as you try to keep things moving.
One thing you didn’t say is if any individual turn is taking a long time. Are there issues with a player or two having analysis paralysis and taking unusually long turns? You might have a talk with them individually and ask if there’s anything you can do to help them make up their minds faster.
As mentioned it is a challenging situation. However, that said, both the DM and players can make it go much quicker.
As DM ...
1) Don't spend time finding the optimal response for the NPCs. When it is their turn pick an action, execute it, resolve effects, move on.
2) When resolving an NPCs actions, try to roll all the dice you need at once. Most DMs have lots of dice. If the veteran has 3 long sword attacks each doing d8+3 then roll three sets of colour coordinated dice .. d20 and d8 .. and apply the results. For large combats it is essential to get the die rolling and decision making time to an absolute minimum.
As a player .. the rules are the same :)
1) Don't spend a lot of time figuring out what to do. If you are thinking about casting a spell, you should look it up LONG before your turn comes around. Similarly, if the player has been playing for at least a few weeks, they shouldn't be referring back to their character sheet to find proficiency bonus, stat modifier, working out they have +7, then roll a d20 and count on their fingers to get a total of 19 after they roll a 12. If a player finds the mental math to be challenging (which is fine) then either the player or the DM should consider using/setting up an app that does the die rolls for them by clicking the correct button.
Combat is limited to 6 seconds - if a character wants to use a bonus action to hide then they roll a d20, add stealth skill, and the DM can say whether they successfully hide or not. With the 6 second limitation, players don't have a lot of time for complex actions that are challenging to resolve. If the DM is allowing the player to do lots of stuff on their turn then they need to consider whether those tasks can reasonably be accomplished in the time limit.
2) Roll all your dice at once. In the example of the flying warlock cited above - their turn is going by quickly BECAUSE they know what they are going to do - not because they are only choosing to cast Eldritch blast. Eldritch blast requires as many dice as a typically martial character in tier 2 with extra attack. 80% of the time (or more) characters are just attacking on their turn. Every character should be just as quick as the warlock most of the time. Making their turn efficient can be done by rolling the d20 and d10 at the same time. After the first combat round, anyone who is paying attention will have a decent idea of what they need to roll to hit - they may not even need to ask the DM and can just say "I missed" or "I rolled a 21 for 12 damage". If a player doesn't have to ask the DM and the DM knows it ... why bother spending the time with that meaningless conversation?
As an example, I've played with some really nice people who aren't good at math, whose memory wasn't that great or they didn't want to memorize a few numbers ... so their combat round was ... roll d20 .. look at character sheet for modifier ... figure out final to hit number ... ask the DM if it hits ... if yes, search for the required damage die and roll it ... look at the character sheet for the damage modifier ... take a few seconds to add it up in their head then tell the DM "I did X damage" ... this entire process then repeated at the same pace ... on Each and Every combat round. Their turn typically took 5 times longer than mine just from rolling dice. Or as an example of what to do .. there was a character who played a druid using Conjure animals. They would summon up 2-4 Deinoychus ... each has 3 attacks. This can be a recipe for extremely slow play ... but in their case, they had LOTS of dice so they had colour coordinated d20 and damage dice for each bite and claw from each of their summoned creatures ... they also knew the to hit and damage modifiers ... so they rolled 12-24 dice all at the same time ... were able to rattle off all the to hit numbers just glancing at the d20s and then recite the damage for each by looking at the matching dice. Their turn was only somewhat longer than mine with just two attacks and far shorter than the player in the first example.
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In terms of additional DM work required to run such a battle - KNOW the NPCs/monsters before the fight starts - this requires preparation. If the DM has to look up each NPC stat block to figure out what the NPC will do that turn ... it takes time.
Have an efficient method for tracking initiative so that you aren't constantly referring to something else to figure out turn order and which of the NPCs goes next.
Have an efficient method for tracking hit points and status conditions for both NPCs and PCs.
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I've run many large combats when playing online. The reason they work is BECAUSE the VTT provides the efficiency in dice rolling, applying damage, recording status, and tracking initiative - leaving decision time as the primary slow down factor. Encouraging folks to be efficient and pay attention helps in both online and in person play but it is more difficult (but possible) to optimize the other aspects when playing in person.
P.S. You mentioned "I used Dwarven Forge terrain, requiring rulers for movement and ranged attacks, which slowed things down." ... this is one aspect you might want to work on making more efficient. Don't use a ruler ... the game is not a simulator. Have a piece of string that is the equivalent of 30', another for 60', 80' and any other important range for the scale of the map. Use the string to figure out how far a character can move ... or whether something is within normal or long range. If a target is closer than the length of the string then it is within range. If there is stuff in the way then the DM decides if it is 1/2 or 3/4 cover. If you have to pull out rulers ... then perhaps folks are taking the distance aspect a bit too seriously :).
Well, adjusting your encounters should simplify matters; you did choose monsters that are a bit sloggy. Replace 5 ghouls and 4 werewolves with 4 flameskulls and it will be a lot less sloggy.
Just to specify, by rulers I mean that we have a pre-cut “30 ft” spell effect that we use for measuring. What does slow things down with that is when their are characters flying and I have some players that will pull out the pythagorean theorem to measure…some very good ideas though that I will implement. Thanks.
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
For flying, just break math. Five feet up or down is five feet of movement. Horizontal movement is managed just like anybody else's. Do the same for ranges.
Does that give them a bit more movement? Yes, but it's countered by the increase of ranges.
Either that, or find somebody to 3d print you some kind of to-scale miniature stands, and use string like others have suggested.
Some tips:
1) Group enemies up into blocks, so e.g. you have an initiative tracker that looks like : player 1, player 2, all ghouls, player 3, all werewolves, player 4, player 5, all hags.
2) Don't roll initiative for the enemies, instead have the player roll initiative and stagger the enemies from highest Dex to lowest Dex between the player turns.
Reasons: breaking up player turns gives players more time to plan their turns while you are running enemies and ensure there is always about to be a player turn so the players aren't ever just sitting around for 30 minutes while the DM plays.
3) Using #1 also allows the DM to use digital dice rollers to roll all the attacks & damage at once, then just go down the list of attacks while moving the enemies & determining who the victim is for each attack. -> digital dice rollers will also do the math for you again speeding things up.
4) Simplify the monsters, rather than having to look up the "to hit" and damage rolls for each individual monster / monster-type simplify them down, if the monsters you picked have +4/+5/+6 to hit, just give them all +5 to hit, if they have DC 14/DC15/DC16 abilities, just make all the DCs 15. Similarly, if the damage rolls for various monsters are 1d6+4, 1d8+3, 1d10+3 etc... just simplify it down to all being 1d8+3. Small difference like this do not matter in a few rounds of combat, so make your life easier. Same can be done for saving throw, rather than +2/+3/+4 saves just make them all +3.
5) As others have mentioned use string / bits of paper for measuring, but beyond what other have suggested : create templates for each size / area, and give them to each of the players and tell them that they are responsible for having the template for their spell at the ready for measuring. If they don't have it at the ready then you're going to make a quick guess at who is/isn't in it to keep the combat moving. Remember: people in life/death combat aren't going to be 100% perfectly precise, so perfect placement / measuring isn't realistic.
6) Don't worry about perfect strategy, again combat is mostly chaos NPCs aren't going to be making perfect strategic decisions either.
For flying, first I agree 100% with jl8e. Don’t worry about angles just count out the squares on the ground and call it good. Its close enough, and reducing the amount of geometry homework you do will really speed things up.
I’ve been using minis on top of legos lately for height. One brick =5 feet. It’s not to scale, but it’s been really easy to remember and easy to add and remove them to adjust heights. It will be a bit out of place on dwarven forge, but it might help.
I run a group of 9 players and a lot of the advice I'd offer is the same as above - less monsters encourage the players to plan ahead (especially the player(s) with summons), etc
Do you give the players a heads up before their turn to remind them to start planning - like ok it's werewolf B's turn, John you're on deck?
Some things I think I haven't been suggested that I [sometimes] do are:
Give the monsters/enemies less HP and up their damage - this will make the fights go faster & give it a nice edge of tension/doesn't feel like a steamroll.
Upgrade the monsters - rather than large groups, make the minions stronger.
Swarms - whenever I want to simulate my players fighting a large group of mobs, I make the monsters into a swarm. I tend to drop the BPS resistance & instead of doing half damage I reduce the number of attacks/damage for every 'enemy' killed (every 10th of HP one member of the swarm dies - this is to stop the swarm being too powerful & killing the players a lot more effectively than they would as individuals), I also multiply the damage & increase the CR but normally I don't increase the to hit bonus/saving throw because I find that tends to make them more powerful than they would be as individuals & => too dangerous.
Rather than dice rolling for monsters vs NPCs/summons, just remove say 2 werewolves & 2 bears from the fight & say they're fighting each other (and decide the outcome based on how the party does rather than dice rolling.
Offer suggestions if they're struggling - when my players are really unsure what to do, I point out what's happening around them & what they can do - that does help somewhat, but beware, it can sometimes add to the confusion by giving them more things to think about.
Track the monsters states/hp, etc & initiative on paper - i find this so much faster than clicking a button, clicking HP, pressing plus or minus, pressing the number keys, etc.
For the flying thing, I do want to say, I do what was suggested above. We used to do the whole complicated trigonometry thing in my group but our general experience was, the distance on the diagonal was generally roughly the same as it would be horizontally - so if they're say 40 away horizontally and then 30 ft in the air, I say they're 40ft away diagonally as well - not 100% sure is this accurate all the time, but it's a lot more efficient than trigonometry.
Hope this helps.
It's totally not accurate, but it's how things work if you're doing grid movement. (In actual trig, they're 50 feet away, but you usually aren't using the one triangle that everybody who remembers any trig remembers, so it's a lot harder than that one.)
Accuracy is overrated, anyway.
I often just put a dice under the mini - usually a d6 - and use the number to indicate height in 5' or 10' increments. I find it easier to just flip the die to a different side than try to find a stand of a different height :)
Also, as suggested, don't worry about accuracy on diagonals. If unrealistic diagonal geometry really bothers you ... you can always use the 1.5 to 1 suggestion in the DMG (2014 at least) and then just approximate it. The time required for accurate diagonal vertical movement isn't worth it (and many tables don't even bother with accurate 2D diagonal movement anyway).
The simple reality is that 5e combat feels slow because it is slow and a DM has a big workload when running 5e D&D because... thats the way it is.
I'm not suggesting there aren't ways to speed things up a bit, there are and there are certainly shortcuts you can take to lighten the load, because they do exist.. but it only takes a courtesy reading of the suggestions to realize that implementing these things that expedite the game, is to effectively not play the game as designed.
It's a bit like saying, you can play golf a lot faster if you play 9 holes instead of 18, and if you go over a par, you just pick up the ball and move on to the next hole. Sure you could do that, but are you still experiencing golf? Technically, you are.. but it's not exactly what I think people are looking for as an answer.. aka, gut the game so that you can play it faster.
In my experience what is "slow combat" is a matter of perception; every group is different. Some groups have more patience, some less. The same is true about DM workload, some DM love spending countless hours preparing, fine-tuning, tinkering, some don't.
My suggestion, which I think is going to be a bit controversial, but I think its the best approach is to not think of D&D as 5e D&D and just think of D&D as a fantasy adventure role-playing, something that can be achieved in a wide range of ways and there are many different D&D like systems that are going to be better suited for different groups.
I think the issue is that many people play only 5e D&D exclusively and they see any issues that they have in their game or in their group as something that must be solved in the scope of that system.
Remove that requirement and a whole new world opens up.
For example if you want a much faster combat system but still have class-based D&D, Castles and Crusades is an option. If you want more gritty D&D, faster with a much lighter loader but still 5e, Shadowdark might be a good option. Perhaps your favorite part about D&D isn't combat but narrative stories and you just want to get combat done quickly... Daggerheart might be for you.
There are a lot of systems out there that do D&D in a wide range of ways and I find typically for most 5e groups who find fault in the game, the solution isn't workarounds, and clever disections or heavy rules adaptions forced into a system and its just better to try out other system until you find one that works well for your groups style of play and preferences.
That's how the rules say to do it.
There is also Nimble 5e which was specifically designed to streamline and speed up 5e, which is worth considering.
Telling people "play a different game system" is fairly unhelpful. Very few game systems will handle 20 combatants particularly well, finishing in 3 hours is pretty decent. That said, there certainly are things that you can do to streamline things.
In the past, many times the players are the one slowing the combat, not the DM. The slowest players are usually the Mage classes.
So while their are things you can do, the players can be faster as well. Bring a chess clock. The players have to get their actions in before the time is spent. If they are fast like the warlock, then they leave time (which is lost) and the clock is reset. By getting the players to speed up, it will deflect the complaints about you. Some players may be thinking of what they want to do instead of thinking how long this takes.
That is a very long time.
Actually it is not adding anything, if they hid and do nothing, then they are ignored and that portion is skipped and and completed very quickly.
They can be the target of the monsters.
You have 12 NPCs that help the party? In combat, they should cease to be of any assistance. Do not target them and have them move away. Combat is with the players and monsters. The other speed up is choosing the monsters choice of target. Just always choose the closest player to the weapon used. There is no wrong target, and you will do this with out thinking.
The way I see it, when the system you're using doesn't deliver the kind of game you want, you have only 3 possible options to solve this issue.
1. You alter the game itself or method of playing it, as is being suggested by most here.
2. Accept it and live with it
3. Pick a system that creates the playstyle you're interested.
So far as I can see, everyone else has options 1 and 2 covered in their posts, I didn't see anyone mention alternative 3 which is actually, simplest and most direct way to solve the problem.
5e is what it is, it plays the way it plays. If that doesn't work for you, why tamper with it, why not just find a fantasy system that delivers what you are looking for? Why try to figure out a way to force a game to do something it's not designed to do? 5e has slow, tactical combat, it's how it's designed, this is not a bug, it's not a problem to solve, it's a feature of the game. Many people like it, the OP's players clearly don't.
Not ALL systems are designed to have fast combat and/or handle lots of combatants, but there are plenty to choose from that do. Really, I don't think its physically possible for anyone to describe a playstyle they are interested in that isn't covered by one of the many RPG's out there. D&D 5e is not the only D&D in the RPG hobby, there are lots of them out there, hell there are better versions of D&D 5e out there these days.
And for the record, I disagree wholeheartedly that 3 hours is an acceptable time frame for a D&D battle.. ever.. under any circumstance. That is absolutely ridiculous; that is effectively an entire session just doing combat. If I were in that group, I would be complaining too. I mean, he said 3 rounds of combat for 5 players in 3 hours. That means the average player was waiting 36 minutes to take an action, and in that 3-hour period got to take 3 actions; that is the stuff of RPG nightmares. That is not fun D&D