Not being all that creative, I'm wondering how you folks determine what happens in the lives of NPCs/countries/towns, etc., between interactions w/ the PCs, and how do you keep track of it? Tables, lists, charts? Are there utilities that work for you?
If you want to have a dynamic world that moves independently of the PCs - and kudos if you want to do this; it's a lotof work, but it makes for a much more immersive gaming world - then you need to work out a fair amount of detail in your setting.
When you design part of your setting - let's say a town - then you need to sketch out:
What are the power factions in the area ( temples, political factions in the ruling class, guilds, criminal organizations, etc. )? This can extend to powerful NPCs, and to NPCs that aren't super-significant to the overall local situation in the area, but are significant to the party.
For those factions, what resources do they have? What are their limits? What tactics do they like to use? What tactics will they use in extreme? What tactics would they never use?
What are the overall goals of the various factions? The local organized crime groups probably want to make money, and push each other our of business. The conservative faction in the Duke's council probably wants to keep the status quo ( possibly because they have lucrative industries and trade markets under their control, and want to keep it that way), while the expansionist faction wants to develop new ( and potentially economically disruptive ) trade deals and industries in the city.
What are the short term tactical goals of those factions?
How do all those short term goals conflict and interfere?
You - as the DM - figure out what will happen when everyone tries to make their next move - and figure out when the results will probably evolve. Maybe you just wing it; maybe you assign DC targets for the various factions' actions and roll for them; maybe you go so far as to break out a world building game like Microscopeor Dawn of Worlds and build your world events from those world-building games.
Figure out how what just happened looks to all those factions, and given that, figure out what they would try to do next, based on their goals, their resources, and their personalities.
Rinse, and repeat.
Some warnings here.
This can be a ludicrously deep rabbit hole, if you're not careful! You can bite off too much of trying to simulate an entire world at a fine-level of detail, and you'll burn out.
Only create as much detail as you need to make the world seem alive.
Only create as much detail as you need for the party - or for your story arc.
Which means that you might create detailed events for the city that the party is in right now, detailing interactions between various power groups within the city. However, outside the city, you might only need to create large scale general details about interactions between cities, and even more general high-level interactions between regions and states.
When the characters move into a new city, ( or region ) you can always retroactively figure out what has been happening there recently, using the same technique above - but you don't need to develop that history until the characters get there.
Don't forget to salt "world events" with random occurrences. The events of the city I was describing above might drastically change if the port city is hit by a hurricane, or a large fire which damages a lot of the city, or a plague. For this, random encounter tables can be used to great effect, but try not to overdo this.
Don't forget to factor in the actions of the party into evolving current events. Not only is it more realistic, but the party really likes noticing or hearing about events or developments which they influenced; it makes them feel significant in the world, which is what they want playing Heros ( or possibly Anti-Heroes - or even Anti-Villains ).
And don't be afraid to occasionally make specific "far away" events which might have indirect effects on local events: the city of Delens might be across the ocean, but it's trading partner with the city the party is in right now - so when the city is besieged by foreign armies, it will have an effect on local events as well.
It's work - but it creates highly realistic "current events" - plus the evolving events going on around the party are an excellent ready-made source of plot and adventure hooks.
And if you start small and local, and keep events outside the local area mostly general, and only create as much detail as you need - then you can keep the workload down.
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An easy/quick way to show that time has passed for NPCs is to give them something new that they wear, have, or can do. It's much smaller than the wonderful world-building laid out by Vedexent above, but might be a good base to jump from. I find personally that these smaller touches lead to bigger discoveries for me when coming up with what happened in the life of an important NPC or their world around them.
I had an NPC healer who got a new walking stick, crafted for her by her estranged grandson. Or a barkeep they met who had a nasty new cut over his eye since the last he saw them, but he won't tell them what it's from.
You could have them meet somebody and have a newish relationship (or a rushed marriage, who knows!) or have them pick up a skill (they could've wanted to pick it up after meeting one of your PCs). That way, it doesn't necessarily have to be tied deeply into your full adventure, but gives them fullness as though time has passed. Plus, it'll give your PCs something to talk to them about off the bat.
In terms of keeping track of NPCs, I have a table I keep for each town they've been to and the notable NPCs there. I'll add in notes like "new walking stick" or "cagey about his cut" so I bring them to the PCs' attention, but I don't have to hold a million details in my mind about their day-to-day while the PCs have been gone.
I like to take a fairly loose approach to the idea, I have 24 cities, 3 major story arcs, and 5 player arcs, so trying to juggle all of that is nothing short of a nightmare. So what I do is I take it in 3 different thought processes:
1) What are the 4 major story arc players doing while the world turns. Are the players actively working on one of those arcs, then I just let things fall according to the player interaction and the goal of that arc. Every other arc just slowly moves closer to it's final goal with a "critical" point where the goal is finally to big to ignore, and then an end if the players completely ignore it.
Arc 1: has a druid in it that the players met early in the game, they ran across the druid's followers in another town, and, unknown to them, the druid infiltrated their group for a time. They have lost track of the druid since then, but he has been keeping tabs on them and in the near future will be making contact again due to choices the players have made.
Arc 2: The players have no clue about this arc, but they have already started in motion events that cause this to progress. There is a very strong possibility that they'll make their way toward this arc after arc 1 is finished as they have some intersecting NPCs that can give information.
Arc 3: The players have had information about this one handed to them, but they are unaware that this is a major arc, or even an arc at all. The information is vague enough that it has caused them to think about it but they haven't had a reason to dig very deep into it other than a character's personal story.
Arc 4: The players are just now going to be getting information on this arc, their current choices have led them to a point where this information will be rewarded based on how they interact with the various people and environments that they're going to come across. As well they've already met the major benefactor to this arc, they just don't know it yet.
2) I tried to see how the different arcs might intersect and interact with each other. By finding these points where they may meet up and bump into each other it gives me ways to push the story into the spot light even when it isn't the main goal of the players.
I have 5 players, used to be 6, each of them from the same town, each of them having been raised together as children. Each of them have different reasons for why they were raised in the local nursery/orphanage, but they are all looking for answers.
The Tiefling's story will take them to a place that Arc 3 is prominent and could completely derail that arc if the player chooses certain courses of action (I kinda hope she does). She is also loosely connected to both Arc 1 and 2 based on her class choice, however this is tangential and may not be a major driving force.
The Half-Drow's story is tied into Arc 3 directly, could thwart the Tiefling's interests or it could give the party an advantage. It also ties into the entire party as, depending on how she plays it, it could change the entire world and flip it on it's head.
The Dwarf's story is tied into the Half-Elf's story by accident, her personal goal being achieved she started up Arc 4 by in game choices.
And so on, I've tried to make it feel like everything they do is somehow connected or somehow related to events in the world and their choices.
3) Lastly I let the players give me prompts. It's really easy to see what is going to make them respond to the world by listening to them talk among themselves about different locations, NPCs, events, and so forth. By letting them talk, and taking my hands off the wheel as it were, I can easily tie in their conversations to the story at hand and make it feel like they're being shapers and movers in the world.
I recently had an NPC write a letter to one of the players. They saved him and his mother many months ago (real time) and had brought up that they might go back to visit and see how they were doing. I also used this to give me some time so I could figure out how to give them some more information about the major arc that they've been pursuing and the one that they've just started. The players all thought it was neat, and the way I presented it gave them pause to ask questions and start considering plot elements that I'd heard them bring up in previous sessions.
I'm simulationist, but I don't track these things. When it comes up, I have NPC's/Organizations advance as one might expect, and often roll a d20: high is good for them, low is bad (using my imagination, and what makes sense, to describe any extreme results).
Is anyone aware of any tables or charts that I could use? I'm envisioning something like: 1-10 = Regime change, 11-20 = Royal wedding, 21-30 = NPC killed, etc.
I realize I've just started a table, but I was hoping there was something already out there. It seems like there used to be a National Events table for the Harn RPG, but I can't find it now.
The problem with purely random events is that they're purely random. Things happen without rhyme or reason. There's no sense of continuity or consequence, and the actions of the party have zero impact on events if you're relying purely on random events: "damn, we put all that effort into saving the King and foiling the plot to usurp the throne, and now there's been a Regime Change? Why?"
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Reading your approaches, to me it looks like you're doing a simpler version of what I'm describing.
MattV, I think the only place we differ is that you're summing up my attempts to figure out what each agency is going to do as " advance as one might expect". I break out all the steps in excruciating details trying to explain it - but I agree that generally I just ask myself "OK, what will the Dark Star Theives Guild try an do next", and roll a die ( sometimes a contested roll, if they're acting in opposition to another agency ), because I already know what they're like, and what they can do ( since I created them ). No need to go over an evaluation of every agency every iteration of the process - but I couldn't do a simplified "event loop" without having made that evaluation ( if just as as gut feel ) at some point.
DMThac0 - I think we do differ a bit here, but I get the impression from your entry that you have a pre-plotted "story web" - not a plot railroad ( although nothing wrong with a linear narrative railroad ), but a flowchart of where the plot could go ( even if it's just in your head ), and if the players aren't involved, you're just moving the "now pointer" to a later part of the flowchart. Am I reading that right? However, I still do this kind of thing for the currently played story arc, because that's how I figure out how "the bad guys" are going to do next. The Players are just another agency, although one I don't have to figure out the next action for.
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
DMThac0 - I think we do differ a bit here, but I get the impression from your entry that you have a pre-plotted "story web" - not a plot railroad ( although nothing wrong with a linear narrative railroad ), but a flowchart of where the plot could go ( even if it's just in your head ), and if the players aren't involved, you're just moving the "now pointer" to a later part of the flowchart. Am I reading that right? However, I still do this kind of thing for the currently played story arc, because that's how I figure out how "the bad guys" are going to do next. The Players are just another agency, although one I don't have to figure out the next action for.
You have the core of it pretty well defined. I'll shift closer to your method depending on the amount of agency needed, but for the most part you got it. I find it makes for a good middle ground approach so that I can put things on rails when needed or just let the party derail to their hearts content and still make sure the world events feel organic.
The problem with purely random events is that they're purely random. Things happen without rhyme or reason. There's no sense of continuity or consequence, and the actions of the party have zero impact on events if you're relying purely on random events: "damn, we put all that effort into saving the King and foiling the plot to usurp the throne, and now there's been a Regime Change? Why?"
You have the core of it pretty well defined. I'll shift closer to your method depending on the amount of agency needed, but for the most part you got it. I find it makes for a good middle ground approach so that I can put things on rails when needed or just let the party derail to their hearts content and still make sure the world events feel organic.
Cool :)
I have tended to view story webs ( or flowcharts ) as just a pre-calculation ofwhat I call an event loop - and I've preferred doing the event loop, due to player perversity :p
With the event loop, no matter what the party does, the narrative progresses without issue, as their actions are just figured into the next loop. With a story web, the party can run right off the pre-planned flowchart, into terra incognita, and either I have to revert to working out events by my event loop strategy, or I have to have create a means of steering the party back to one of the nodes on the flowchart. The latter feels like I'm taking consequence away from the party: no matter what they do, they'll get to the next story event, because if they can't find the way, I'll hand-hold them and lead them there anyways.
However, the pre-planned story web has some real advantages! You can create bottlenecks in the narrative flow, which means that you can craft really well thought out and polished scenes, as you're virtually guaranteed that the party will get there, and it allows you to plan building tension and action on the way there.
I guess I don't have any final answers - it's a question of how you rank the relative importance of player consequence, pre-planning and polished scenes with dramatic high points in the story, and story flexibility - and it's something I'm constantly struggling with myself.
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
you should never ever tell your pcs anything that's going on somewhere else, unless it will directly affect them or the local population in some quantifiable manner.
every time a chicken in quirm lays the same egg 3 times in a hurricane you should hear about it. taxes changing will be headline news, taxes going up will be headline news, goblins over running the town 100 miles away will be headline news, but only 1% of the times it's headline news will it actually have happened, by the time farmer maggot fell off his cart in a village 2000 miles away reaches your ears it will have turned into that countries king having been eaten by a dragon. by a process of Chinese whispers, medieval worlds revolve around ridiculous fake news and tedium to keep gossip flowing.
you should have lots of factions with aims and goals and if your pc's interact with them then they should become aware of something, clandestine organisations fail all the time, that's when they stop becoming clandestine. kings change, but not on a weekly basis, unless you're really unlucky and when they do the first thing you find out about it is a new coin for the new king that's already a year old, or there's a war that the local millers son is off to fight in.
you personally as DM, should know what's going on though obviously just don't tell your players
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All plans turn into, run into the room waving a sword and see what happens from there, once the first die gets rolled
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Not being all that creative, I'm wondering how you folks determine what happens in the lives of NPCs/countries/towns, etc., between interactions w/ the PCs, and how do you keep track of it? Tables, lists, charts? Are there utilities that work for you?
If you want to have a dynamic world that moves independently of the PCs - and kudos if you want to do this; it's a lot of work, but it makes for a much more immersive gaming world - then you need to work out a fair amount of detail in your setting.
When you design part of your setting - let's say a town - then you need to sketch out:
Rinse, and repeat.
Some warnings here.
This can be a ludicrously deep rabbit hole, if you're not careful! You can bite off too much of trying to simulate an entire world at a fine-level of detail, and you'll burn out.
Only create as much detail as you need to make the world seem alive.
Only create as much detail as you need for the party - or for your story arc.
Which means that you might create detailed events for the city that the party is in right now, detailing interactions between various power groups within the city. However, outside the city, you might only need to create large scale general details about interactions between cities, and even more general high-level interactions between regions and states.
When the characters move into a new city, ( or region ) you can always retroactively figure out what has been happening there recently, using the same technique above - but you don't need to develop that history until the characters get there.
Don't forget to salt "world events" with random occurrences. The events of the city I was describing above might drastically change if the port city is hit by a hurricane, or a large fire which damages a lot of the city, or a plague. For this, random encounter tables can be used to great effect, but try not to overdo this.
Don't forget to factor in the actions of the party into evolving current events. Not only is it more realistic, but the party really likes noticing or hearing about events or developments which they influenced; it makes them feel significant in the world, which is what they want playing Heros ( or possibly Anti-Heroes - or even Anti-Villains ).
And don't be afraid to occasionally make specific "far away" events which might have indirect effects on local events: the city of Delens might be across the ocean, but it's trading partner with the city the party is in right now - so when the city is besieged by foreign armies, it will have an effect on local events as well.
It's work - but it creates highly realistic "current events" - plus the evolving events going on around the party are an excellent ready-made source of plot and adventure hooks.
And if you start small and local, and keep events outside the local area mostly general, and only create as much detail as you need - then you can keep the workload down.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
An easy/quick way to show that time has passed for NPCs is to give them something new that they wear, have, or can do. It's much smaller than the wonderful world-building laid out by Vedexent above, but might be a good base to jump from. I find personally that these smaller touches lead to bigger discoveries for me when coming up with what happened in the life of an important NPC or their world around them.
I had an NPC healer who got a new walking stick, crafted for her by her estranged grandson. Or a barkeep they met who had a nasty new cut over his eye since the last he saw them, but he won't tell them what it's from.
You could have them meet somebody and have a newish relationship (or a rushed marriage, who knows!) or have them pick up a skill (they could've wanted to pick it up after meeting one of your PCs). That way, it doesn't necessarily have to be tied deeply into your full adventure, but gives them fullness as though time has passed. Plus, it'll give your PCs something to talk to them about off the bat.
In terms of keeping track of NPCs, I have a table I keep for each town they've been to and the notable NPCs there. I'll add in notes like "new walking stick" or "cagey about his cut" so I bring them to the PCs' attention, but I don't have to hold a million details in my mind about their day-to-day while the PCs have been gone.
I like to take a fairly loose approach to the idea, I have 24 cities, 3 major story arcs, and 5 player arcs, so trying to juggle all of that is nothing short of a nightmare. So what I do is I take it in 3 different thought processes:
1) What are the 4 major story arc players doing while the world turns. Are the players actively working on one of those arcs, then I just let things fall according to the player interaction and the goal of that arc. Every other arc just slowly moves closer to it's final goal with a "critical" point where the goal is finally to big to ignore, and then an end if the players completely ignore it.
Arc 1: has a druid in it that the players met early in the game, they ran across the druid's followers in another town, and, unknown to them, the druid infiltrated their group for a time. They have lost track of the druid since then, but he has been keeping tabs on them and in the near future will be making contact again due to choices the players have made.
Arc 2: The players have no clue about this arc, but they have already started in motion events that cause this to progress. There is a very strong possibility that they'll make their way toward this arc after arc 1 is finished as they have some intersecting NPCs that can give information.
Arc 3: The players have had information about this one handed to them, but they are unaware that this is a major arc, or even an arc at all. The information is vague enough that it has caused them to think about it but they haven't had a reason to dig very deep into it other than a character's personal story.
Arc 4: The players are just now going to be getting information on this arc, their current choices have led them to a point where this information will be rewarded based on how they interact with the various people and environments that they're going to come across. As well they've already met the major benefactor to this arc, they just don't know it yet.
2) I tried to see how the different arcs might intersect and interact with each other. By finding these points where they may meet up and bump into each other it gives me ways to push the story into the spot light even when it isn't the main goal of the players.
I have 5 players, used to be 6, each of them from the same town, each of them having been raised together as children. Each of them have different reasons for why they were raised in the local nursery/orphanage, but they are all looking for answers.
The Tiefling's story will take them to a place that Arc 3 is prominent and could completely derail that arc if the player chooses certain courses of action (I kinda hope she does). She is also loosely connected to both Arc 1 and 2 based on her class choice, however this is tangential and may not be a major driving force.
The Half-Drow's story is tied into Arc 3 directly, could thwart the Tiefling's interests or it could give the party an advantage. It also ties into the entire party as, depending on how she plays it, it could change the entire world and flip it on it's head.
The Dwarf's story is tied into the Half-Elf's story by accident, her personal goal being achieved she started up Arc 4 by in game choices.
And so on, I've tried to make it feel like everything they do is somehow connected or somehow related to events in the world and their choices.
3) Lastly I let the players give me prompts. It's really easy to see what is going to make them respond to the world by listening to them talk among themselves about different locations, NPCs, events, and so forth. By letting them talk, and taking my hands off the wheel as it were, I can easily tie in their conversations to the story at hand and make it feel like they're being shapers and movers in the world.
I recently had an NPC write a letter to one of the players. They saved him and his mother many months ago (real time) and had brought up that they might go back to visit and see how they were doing. I also used this to give me some time so I could figure out how to give them some more information about the major arc that they've been pursuing and the one that they've just started. The players all thought it was neat, and the way I presented it gave them pause to ask questions and start considering plot elements that I'd heard them bring up in previous sessions.
I'm simulationist, but I don't track these things. When it comes up, I have NPC's/Organizations advance as one might expect, and often roll a d20: high is good for them, low is bad (using my imagination, and what makes sense, to describe any extreme results).
Is anyone aware of any tables or charts that I could use? I'm envisioning something like: 1-10 = Regime change, 11-20 = Royal wedding, 21-30 = NPC killed, etc.
I realize I've just started a table, but I was hoping there was something already out there. It seems like there used to be a National Events table for the Harn RPG, but I can't find it now.
The problem with purely random events is that they're purely random. Things happen without rhyme or reason. There's no sense of continuity or consequence, and the actions of the party have zero impact on events if you're relying purely on random events: "damn, we put all that effort into saving the King and foiling the plot to usurp the throne, and now there's been a Regime Change? Why?"
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
@DMThac0 , @MattV
Reading your approaches, to me it looks like you're doing a simpler version of what I'm describing.
MattV, I think the only place we differ is that you're summing up my attempts to figure out what each agency is going to do as " advance as one might expect". I break out all the steps in excruciating details trying to explain it - but I agree that generally I just ask myself "OK, what will the Dark Star Theives Guild try an do next", and roll a die ( sometimes a contested roll, if they're acting in opposition to another agency ), because I already know what they're like, and what they can do ( since I created them ). No need to go over an evaluation of every agency every iteration of the process - but I couldn't do a simplified "event loop" without having made that evaluation ( if just as as gut feel ) at some point.
DMThac0 - I think we do differ a bit here, but I get the impression from your entry that you have a pre-plotted "story web" - not a plot railroad ( although nothing wrong with a linear narrative railroad ), but a flowchart of where the plot could go ( even if it's just in your head ), and if the players aren't involved, you're just moving the "now pointer" to a later part of the flowchart. Am I reading that right? However, I still do this kind of thing for the currently played story arc, because that's how I figure out how "the bad guys" are going to do next. The Players are just another agency, although one I don't have to figure out the next action for.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
You have the core of it pretty well defined. I'll shift closer to your method depending on the amount of agency needed, but for the most part you got it. I find it makes for a good middle ground approach so that I can put things on rails when needed or just let the party derail to their hearts content and still make sure the world events feel organic.
This is a very good point.
Cool :)
I have tended to view story webs ( or flowcharts ) as just a pre-calculation ofwhat I call an event loop - and I've preferred doing the event loop, due to player perversity :p
With the event loop, no matter what the party does, the narrative progresses without issue, as their actions are just figured into the next loop. With a story web, the party can run right off the pre-planned flowchart, into terra incognita, and either I have to revert to working out events by my event loop strategy, or I have to have create a means of steering the party back to one of the nodes on the flowchart. The latter feels like I'm taking consequence away from the party: no matter what they do, they'll get to the next story event, because if they can't find the way, I'll hand-hold them and lead them there anyways.
However, the pre-planned story web has some real advantages! You can create bottlenecks in the narrative flow, which means that you can craft really well thought out and polished scenes, as you're virtually guaranteed that the party will get there, and it allows you to plan building tension and action on the way there.
I guess I don't have any final answers - it's a question of how you rank the relative importance of player consequence, pre-planning and polished scenes with dramatic high points in the story, and story flexibility - and it's something I'm constantly struggling with myself.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
you should never ever tell your pcs anything that's going on somewhere else, unless it will directly affect them or the local population in some quantifiable manner.
every time a chicken in quirm lays the same egg 3 times in a hurricane you should hear about it. taxes changing will be headline news, taxes going up will be headline news, goblins over running the town 100 miles away will be headline news, but only 1% of the times it's headline news will it actually have happened, by the time farmer maggot fell off his cart in a village 2000 miles away reaches your ears it will have turned into that countries king having been eaten by a dragon. by a process of Chinese whispers, medieval worlds revolve around ridiculous fake news and tedium to keep gossip flowing.
you should have lots of factions with aims and goals and if your pc's interact with them then they should become aware of something, clandestine organisations fail all the time, that's when they stop becoming clandestine. kings change, but not on a weekly basis, unless you're really unlucky and when they do the first thing you find out about it is a new coin for the new king that's already a year old, or there's a war that the local millers son is off to fight in.
you personally as DM, should know what's going on though obviously just don't tell your players
All plans turn into, run into the room waving a sword and see what happens from there, once the first die gets rolled