I have been Dungeon Mastering for over 20 years and this is the first edition (5e) that I have ran a few times now and I consistently kill the entire group with what I thought were balanced encounters. I usually start at level one for the party. I have used the rules from the DM guide and the new rules in Xanathars guide and still have the same result. Anyone have ideas or thoughts on what could be wrong or tips concerning 5e that I can use to balance these fights? I have also tried using Kobold Fight Club and it still is the same result. What am I doing wrong?
Okay, I had a party of 5 adventurers and it says that they should be able to handle 5 giant wolf spiders as a medium encounter. They died fairly quickly one by one. Is that right? Or is my math wrong there? I know the new mechanics are a little wonky with the multipliers and such
Well it might just be party composition. If they are all squishy wizards, for example, this might be harder. If they all have terrible constitution, or they are all new and don’t know what they’re doing, that could be a factor too. You’ve got to think about A:who are your players? Are they noobs, or 1E veterans? B:Party makeup. Decent makeup, or can they not take a hit? C:Scores and Abilities. A Barbarian might be able to take out a creature that focuses on anti magic properties, but all your sorcerers can’t.
Edit: of course, I don’t have a DMG in front of me. Wow, mongoose, I’m surprised you came up with that that quick!
My favorite are a lot of Stirges. Just send a bunch appropriate for their level and see their faces when they see giant mosquito bats in front of them.
Thank You Boboboombang. That is what I was thinking that unlike other editions I have ran, this one really seems like encounter creation is a very involved process. Like you really gotta look at the monsters and their abilities as well as the party’s abilities and stuff
Thank You All. I will try out that calculator you used mongoose. I think it will help me out a lot, and I will think about using striges and such there Bobo. I will also really take a closer look at the players and monsters from now on.
I threw 2 giant toads at one group, another group was 2 twig blights - 1 Vine blight and a Needle blight, yet another group fought an animated armor and animated sword as their first combat.
Each group was slightly different because of their experience and make up. The game I play with my kids and wife is a lot gentler than the game I play with my Saturday group of 5 experienced players. My Sunday group is almost as gentle as my kids' game because the entire table is made up of players who've never played before. My Wednesday group is a broad mix of experience but the classes they're playing has great synergy so I can make combat a little tougher.
The calculator that Metamongoose gave you is a great starting point, use that to help you fine tune your combats. As the players get more experienced with the game, and you get more familiar with what you can toss at them, you'll find that you can really start to flex your muscles soon enough.
Did you have the encounter happen with webs? Spiders and similar creatures can be tricky when calculating CR. The giant wolf spider's CR should be bumped up if the fight happens where webbing can affect players, similar to how lair effects boost dragon's and lich's CRs. Also remember that any time a monster has features like climb or fly that can be a real challenge to a party with limited ranged attacks.
For a low-level party played by inexperienced players, a fight between 5 party members against 5 monsters can be a recipe for disaster. Each party member will match up against one monster and then it’s just a matter of which side loses a member first. If a PC falls first, then another PC gets double teamed. If 2 fall, they are in serious trouble and once the third goes down, they are toast.
I would always give newbies the advantage of numbers for their first few battles so they get the feel for teamwork and begin to understand what they can and cannot do. Experienced players shouldn’t fall into the trap of matching up one-on-one, but low-level parties are going to be fragile and a few unlucky rolls can lead to a TPK.
Start at level 2! You will have more flexibility for building encounters and your player characters will have more versatility and survivability. You'll get a feel for what your party can handle and how they play their character as you progress into the campaign. In the beginning don't be afraid to test things out and if you throw too much at the party bring in an NPC to save the day. This can lead to interesting future encounters such as quests, friendship, or even rivalry. If a player character has a deity maybe some form of divine intervention is made on their behalf, only to be told it must be repaid. Don't be afraid to drop something completely random that sounds fun at a low level, you WILL want side quests as you progress through the campaign and dropping an early hook keeps players interested. If people start actively searching for more info on a hook you dropped you know you need to write something up for future sessions. If you wanna watch the party squirm in their seats you could TPK them on purpose Final Fantasy 2 style :P
I've said it many times before, by don't rely on the CR system at all. There are too many variables that influence the experience of any given situation.
1. How experienced are the players?
2. What is the play style of the group? If your group goes in gung-ho and triggers one group of enemies. Then blindly chases after the one that tried to get away...resulting in triggering the next group of enemies. Thus chaining multiple encounters and depleting their resources. Well in that case even the easiest encounters ramp up quickly in deadlyness. If you got a group that is more careful and deliberate, investigating, getting as much information as possible and prepare accordingly... Well they'll have a much easier time. You can throw harsher enemies at them, or have enemies use more advanced tactics to make the situation more challenging.
3. What is the character make up of the group? A group of spellcasters will experience situations differently then a group of melee. Spellcasters haven more battlefield control and AoE capacity. Throwing larger groups at them won't be too much of an issue. While a bruiser has mobility, but can still only fight a few at a time.
4. What is the environment like? Any environmental hazards or elements that can be interacted with? Any hazards like Quick Sand or explosive Swamp Gasses can make a fight vs some easy ogres a lot more deadly. Or can make it a lot more easy if its the players being smart enough to shove and drag those same ogres into those hazards. Or what about simple tables that players can use for increased cover to help them. All these things heavily influence the encounters, but don't have a CR attached to them.
5. What is the loot you've provided the group with thusfar? Depending on the game you run. It could be that you're front-loading the party with magical items, because of a scenario that is coming up in which they can't have easy access to stuff. That makes the players getting ahead of the difficulty curve as well. Doing more damage then they should or having more means to cope with situations than they should. Or you're simply not giving enough items to aid the players with extra resources. Although in 5e this is not really an easy for most of the levels since the game is, oddly enough for a high magic system, balanced around players NOT having such resources at all. It also works the other way...what resources do the enemies have to use against the players?
6. What are the enemies skills? A quasit might have a low CR, but don't trust it. Look at the skills it has and you'll see that it can give players of several levels higher still a heart attack. It has a mean AoE, it can summon 1 additional ally quasit, and on death it does AoE damage as well. Players of lvl 5 and lower will lose A LOT, if not all of their health. While it is listed as an "easy" encounter according to CR. Especially when you place a Quasit in a small room, which works even more to its advantage.
7. How tactically savvy does the DM play out the scenario vs how tactically savvy the players are? Are your players only capable of dealing with goblins that throw spears from a distance. Occasionally move in for a little stab. Or are your players able to deal with archer goblins taking the high ground and using Nimble Escape to hide in the underbush. While a warg riding goblin pins another player prone on the floor. Allowing 2 other goblins to attack scimitars with advantage on that character. And basically killing that lvl 1-2 character in 2 rounds if his buddies don't come to help.
8. How did the dice roll during the combat? Did the enemy roll surprisingly well while the players didn't? Did the DM fudge rolls to aid the players or not?
Now I've seen people say that balancing encounters around "Action Economy" is more effective. As in the group can perform 5 attacks per round. Then the enemy group should do that much as well. However this once again depends on many of the variables. In my group for example I'm using enemies with the max HP the enemy could have according to the manuals...and they have multi attacks. While the players are just lvl 3-4 and still make it out somehow...with massive injuries and use of most of their resources though.
In short. Use calculators like KoboldFightClub as a very very very loose guideline. Then play and get to know your group of players and their characters. Over time you'll learn how to tweak encounters to fit them like a glove. Only tip I can give from personal experience. Don't worry about balancing encounters. Make encounters that are interesting and "realistically plausible". Be fair and transparent in providing the characters information regarding what they're up to. Then simply watch how your players find creative ways on how to deal with it. Screw balanced encounters...they're boring as **** anyway. In my opinion just keep a few narrative reasons ready to justify enemies retreating or joining reinforcements to adjust difficulty on the fly.
what would be a usual 1st level encounter? Is it really just boring rats in a cellar? Are there interesting encounters for 1st level?
Define "usual"? After all it is possible to down level opponents. Meaning you could have players fight gnolls and ogres right from the start if you so desire.
For me it has been anything including Kobolds/Goblins/Bullywugs/Twig Blights the first 1-3 levels as the main monsters. Then you can flesh out the adventure and its environment with some spiders, toads, alligators etc. Rats don't have to be rats. They can be Giant Diseased Rats used for experimentation by some vile druid. And now this Rat is larger and can disease the characters. Or the rat even has some mutations allowing you to add elements of other creatures from the Underdark to the rat's repertoire. As DM you can change things up to keep it fresh and new.
I typically have lower level encounters work in one or two waves. That way, if the first wave goes sideways, I can adjust or eliminate the second wave on the fly. It's a bummer knowing mid-encounter that the party is not going to make it. In my experience, players know and don't like it when you pull punches either.
This is especially the case at low level when players are still often getting a feel for their PC and each other.
Am I the only one who ignores the CR system and just think "Do I want this to be an easy, medium, difficult or deadly encounter?" And then depending on my answer I just "kill off" creatures when it feels right based on that answer?
No, I do that often as well, but I do use the CR system to at least get a general sense of where a good starting point for an easy, medium, difficult or deadly encounter should be.
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I have been Dungeon Mastering for over 20 years and this is the first edition (5e) that I have ran a few times now and I consistently kill the entire group with what I thought were balanced encounters. I usually start at level one for the party. I have used the rules from the DM guide and the new rules in Xanathars guide and still have the same result. Anyone have ideas or thoughts on what could be wrong or tips concerning 5e that I can use to balance these fights? I have also tried using Kobold Fight Club and it still is the same result. What am I doing wrong?
World's Okayest DM
Give me an example.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
Okay, I had a party of 5 adventurers and it says that they should be able to handle 5 giant wolf spiders as a medium encounter. They died fairly quickly one by one. Is that right? Or is my math wrong there? I know the new mechanics are a little wonky with the multipliers and such
World's Okayest DM
Your math is off. The adjusted difficulty on that encounter is Deadly.
I used this calculator.
Well it might just be party composition. If they are all squishy wizards, for example, this might be harder. If they all have terrible constitution, or they are all new and don’t know what they’re doing, that could be a factor too. You’ve got to think about A:who are your players? Are they noobs, or 1E veterans? B:Party makeup. Decent makeup, or can they not take a hit? C:Scores and Abilities. A Barbarian might be able to take out a creature that focuses on anti magic properties, but all your sorcerers can’t.
Edit: of course, I don’t have a DMG in front of me. Wow, mongoose, I’m surprised you came up with that that quick!
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
Ah okay so let me ask this...
what would be a usual 1st level encounter? Is it really just boring rats in a cellar? Are there interesting encounters for 1st level?
World's Okayest DM
I think you need to be a bit more rich on detail how the encounter went on.
Did your spiders all roll 20 while the players rolled 1 or 2 or?
Three giant wolf spiders would make for a Medium Encounter. (3 of any monster with a 1/4 CR would.)
Also 2 monsters of 1/2 CR would be a Medium, as would 6 monsters of 1/8 CR.
Also a 1 CR monster and a 1/4 CR monster minion.
My favorite are a lot of Stirges. Just send a bunch appropriate for their level and see their faces when they see giant mosquito bats in front of them.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
Thank You Boboboombang. That is what I was thinking that unlike other editions I have ran, this one really seems like encounter creation is a very involved process. Like you really gotta look at the monsters and their abilities as well as the party’s abilities and stuff
World's Okayest DM
Thank You All. I will try out that calculator you used mongoose. I think it will help me out a lot, and I will think about using striges and such there Bobo. I will also really take a closer look at the players and monsters from now on.
World's Okayest DM
I threw 2 giant toads at one group, another group was 2 twig blights - 1 Vine blight and a Needle blight, yet another group fought an animated armor and animated sword as their first combat.
Each group was slightly different because of their experience and make up. The game I play with my kids and wife is a lot gentler than the game I play with my Saturday group of 5 experienced players. My Sunday group is almost as gentle as my kids' game because the entire table is made up of players who've never played before. My Wednesday group is a broad mix of experience but the classes they're playing has great synergy so I can make combat a little tougher.
The calculator that Metamongoose gave you is a great starting point, use that to help you fine tune your combats. As the players get more experienced with the game, and you get more familiar with what you can toss at them, you'll find that you can really start to flex your muscles soon enough.
Thank You DMThaco. I appreciate the advice
World's Okayest DM
Did you have the encounter happen with webs? Spiders and similar creatures can be tricky when calculating CR. The giant wolf spider's CR should be bumped up if the fight happens where webbing can affect players, similar to how lair effects boost dragon's and lich's CRs. Also remember that any time a monster has features like climb or fly that can be a real challenge to a party with limited ranged attacks.
For a low-level party played by inexperienced players, a fight between 5 party members against 5 monsters can be a recipe for disaster. Each party member will match up against one monster and then it’s just a matter of which side loses a member first. If a PC falls first, then another PC gets double teamed. If 2 fall, they are in serious trouble and once the third goes down, they are toast.
I would always give newbies the advantage of numbers for their first few battles so they get the feel for teamwork and begin to understand what they can and cannot do. Experienced players shouldn’t fall into the trap of matching up one-on-one, but low-level parties are going to be fragile and a few unlucky rolls can lead to a TPK.
Start at level 2! You will have more flexibility for building encounters and your player characters will have more versatility and survivability. You'll get a feel for what your party can handle and how they play their character as you progress into the campaign. In the beginning don't be afraid to test things out and if you throw too much at the party bring in an NPC to save the day. This can lead to interesting future encounters such as quests, friendship, or even rivalry. If a player character has a deity maybe some form of divine intervention is made on their behalf, only to be told it must be repaid. Don't be afraid to drop something completely random that sounds fun at a low level, you WILL want side quests as you progress through the campaign and dropping an early hook keeps players interested. If people start actively searching for more info on a hook you dropped you know you need to write something up for future sessions. If you wanna watch the party squirm in their seats you could TPK them on purpose Final Fantasy 2 style :P
I've said it many times before, by don't rely on the CR system at all. There are too many variables that influence the experience of any given situation.
1. How experienced are the players?
2. What is the play style of the group?
If your group goes in gung-ho and triggers one group of enemies. Then blindly chases after the one that tried to get away...resulting in triggering the next group of enemies. Thus chaining multiple encounters and depleting their resources. Well in that case even the easiest encounters ramp up quickly in deadlyness. If you got a group that is more careful and deliberate, investigating, getting as much information as possible and prepare accordingly... Well they'll have a much easier time. You can throw harsher enemies at them, or have enemies use more advanced tactics to make the situation more challenging.
3. What is the character make up of the group?
A group of spellcasters will experience situations differently then a group of melee. Spellcasters haven more battlefield control and AoE capacity. Throwing larger groups at them won't be too much of an issue. While a bruiser has mobility, but can still only fight a few at a time.
4. What is the environment like? Any environmental hazards or elements that can be interacted with?
Any hazards like Quick Sand or explosive Swamp Gasses can make a fight vs some easy ogres a lot more deadly. Or can make it a lot more easy if its the players being smart enough to shove and drag those same ogres into those hazards. Or what about simple tables that players can use for increased cover to help them. All these things heavily influence the encounters, but don't have a CR attached to them.
5. What is the loot you've provided the group with thusfar?
Depending on the game you run. It could be that you're front-loading the party with magical items, because of a scenario that is coming up in which they can't have easy access to stuff. That makes the players getting ahead of the difficulty curve as well. Doing more damage then they should or having more means to cope with situations than they should. Or you're simply not giving enough items to aid the players with extra resources. Although in 5e this is not really an easy for most of the levels since the game is, oddly enough for a high magic system, balanced around players NOT having such resources at all. It also works the other way...what resources do the enemies have to use against the players?
6. What are the enemies skills?
A quasit might have a low CR, but don't trust it. Look at the skills it has and you'll see that it can give players of several levels higher still a heart attack. It has a mean AoE, it can summon 1 additional ally quasit, and on death it does AoE damage as well. Players of lvl 5 and lower will lose A LOT, if not all of their health. While it is listed as an "easy" encounter according to CR. Especially when you place a Quasit in a small room, which works even more to its advantage.
7. How tactically savvy does the DM play out the scenario vs how tactically savvy the players are?
Are your players only capable of dealing with goblins that throw spears from a distance. Occasionally move in for a little stab. Or are your players able to deal with archer goblins taking the high ground and using Nimble Escape to hide in the underbush. While a warg riding goblin pins another player prone on the floor. Allowing 2 other goblins to attack scimitars with advantage on that character. And basically killing that lvl 1-2 character in 2 rounds if his buddies don't come to help.
8. How did the dice roll during the combat? Did the enemy roll surprisingly well while the players didn't? Did the DM fudge rolls to aid the players or not?
Now I've seen people say that balancing encounters around "Action Economy" is more effective. As in the group can perform 5 attacks per round. Then the enemy group should do that much as well. However this once again depends on many of the variables. In my group for example I'm using enemies with the max HP the enemy could have according to the manuals...and they have multi attacks. While the players are just lvl 3-4 and still make it out somehow...with massive injuries and use of most of their resources though.
In short. Use calculators like KoboldFightClub as a very very very loose guideline. Then play and get to know your group of players and their characters. Over time you'll learn how to tweak encounters to fit them like a glove. Only tip I can give from personal experience. Don't worry about balancing encounters. Make encounters that are interesting and "realistically plausible". Be fair and transparent in providing the characters information regarding what they're up to. Then simply watch how your players find creative ways on how to deal with it. Screw balanced encounters...they're boring as **** anyway. In my opinion just keep a few narrative reasons ready to justify enemies retreating or joining reinforcements to adjust difficulty on the fly.
Define "usual"? After all it is possible to down level opponents. Meaning you could have players fight gnolls and ogres right from the start if you so desire.
For me it has been anything including Kobolds/Goblins/Bullywugs/Twig Blights the first 1-3 levels as the main monsters. Then you can flesh out the adventure and its environment with some spiders, toads, alligators etc. Rats don't have to be rats. They can be Giant Diseased Rats used for experimentation by some vile druid. And now this Rat is larger and can disease the characters. Or the rat even has some mutations allowing you to add elements of other creatures from the Underdark to the rat's repertoire. As DM you can change things up to keep it fresh and new.
I typically have lower level encounters work in one or two waves. That way, if the first wave goes sideways, I can adjust or eliminate the second wave on the fly. It's a bummer knowing mid-encounter that the party is not going to make it. In my experience, players know and don't like it when you pull punches either.
This is especially the case at low level when players are still often getting a feel for their PC and each other.
Am I the only one who ignores the CR system and just think "Do I want this to be an easy, medium, difficult or deadly encounter?" And then depending on my answer I just "kill off" creatures when it feels right based on that answer?
No, I do that often as well, but I do use the CR system to at least get a general sense of where a good starting point for an easy, medium, difficult or deadly encounter should be.