Hi, Reading the Lost Mines of Phandelver module and I have a couple of questions regarding ability checks please.
Where it says (for example) "a successful DC10 wisdom (perception) check reveals..." does this mean that I'm asking everyone in the party to roll for the check? Or would I usually ask the character with the highest wisdom? For example if the party say "we search the corridor for secret passages" ?
Related to that - in the List Mines of Phandelver, page 30, Ruins of Thundertree, encounter 1 uses a passive check vs a stealth check to spot the Twig Blights and encounter 2 does not mention the check being passive, it calls for a successful wisdom (perception) check opposed by a stealth check. Is this just an error or am I missing something in how these checks should be conducted?
Perception (Wisdom) check is exception compared to most other rolls because it is passive check. Passive wisdom check is 10 + Wisdom modifier + Proficiency bonus. For example lvl 1 character with 15 Wisdom and proficiency with Perception has passive Perception of 14. (10+2+2=14) So there is no need to make an actual D20 roll for Perception check. So in your example (DC10) whole party can spot something hidden if even one of the party members have Wisdom of 10 or more. As dungeon master you can write passive perception number of each character to edge of paper and easily compare this number to all hidden things such as traps. Check Player's Handbook page 177 box with information about hiding.
Cheers , so do you mean that a perception check is always a passive check? I thought that searching for a hidden object for example would be an active roll of the dice.
If the players are actively looking for something, all players involved in the search will roll a d20 for the perception check. This is what is needed to find the hidden door. If they do not look for it, they don't find it.
Passive perception is used as the DC check that the monsters making a stealth check need to beat to sneak up on the party and surprise them. You can find the rules for surprise in combat rules, but here is a summary: all creatures trying to sneak roll stealth, they (individually) are hidden (unseen/totally obscured) from any creature with a passive perception less than its stealth roll, if a creature (player) has a passive perception lower than all enemy stealth checks they are surprised and skip their first turn of battle.
Thanks for the help, that does make sense. I'm a little puzzled by the variations in the instructions within the Thundertree Ruins part of LMoP.
There are three encounters that involve spotting Twig Blights, all requiring a perception check opposed by the Twig Blights stealth but all slightly different;
Area one says "... compare the results to the passive Wisdom (perception) scores of the players..." (so all players)
Area two says "Spotting them requires a successful Wisdom (perception) check..." (so one or perhaps all players?, active rolls?)
Area 12 says "Allow each character to attempt a Wisdom (perception) check... to avoid being surprised by them" (so all characters, rolling for it).
I wonder if this is just slightly sloppy writing or if there is any intention to these differences? Because some of these are clearly passive and some are active rolls.
I think I know why this is. Lost mine of phandelver is the starter kit adventure. It is teaching you (as a new DM) different ways to handle an ambush. Passive perception, active search before hand, and reactive (called for) roll.
You may notice other sections in the adventure that do the same situation differently in a short time.
Basically, it is all up to DM style and situation. If the creatures need to advance to get in range, rolling stealth against PC passive is probably the way to go. If it is a lying in wait kind if thing, the other two methods would be more appropriate (I would default to the reaction method for this unless a player says that are being watchful).
Cheers. I see that it's possibleto just use what feels right so I'll run with that. I didn't want to mess up something as important as perception during our first sessions.
LMoP is meant to teach both the players and the DM how to play the game. The reason it calls for active perception checks when you first walk into a situation (which an experienced DM would almost never do for an experienced party), is to teach the players to start searching around on their own. As you play, you'll learn to call for ability checks as your players say "I want to x."
The advanced technique is that perception is always passive unless a player asks what they can see or what they notice, or really any other situation in which they're using sight, sound, or smell actively. You should never call on them to make a perception check without cause, once they know how to play the game.
I will continue this thread with one more example from my project Clam Island.
"Roll Perception (Wisdom, passive) check, DC 13. If check fails characters do not spot the pressure plate at middle of the hallway. If character steps on it spears hit from wall causing 4d6 damage."
What do you think about this one? Is pressure plate trap passive or active check? Personally I think passive is better because if active check is required it is forcing players to do searching in every room and hallway just in case.
Hi, Reading the Lost Mines of Phandelver module and I have a couple of questions regarding ability checks please.
Where it says (for example) "a successful DC10 wisdom (perception) check reveals..." does this mean that I'm asking everyone in the party to roll for the check? Or would I usually ask the character with the highest wisdom? For example if the party say "we search the corridor for secret passages" ?
Related to that - in the List Mines of Phandelver, page 30, Ruins of Thundertree, encounter 1 uses a passive check vs a stealth check to spot the Twig Blights and encounter 2 does not mention the check being passive, it calls for a successful wisdom (perception) check opposed by a stealth check. Is this just an error or am I missing something in how these checks should be conducted?
Perception (Wisdom) check is exception compared to most other rolls because it is passive check. Passive wisdom check is 10 + Wisdom modifier + Proficiency bonus. For example lvl 1 character with 15 Wisdom and proficiency with Perception has passive Perception of 14. (10+2+2=14) So there is no need to make an actual D20 roll for Perception check. So in your example (DC10) whole party can spot something hidden if even one of the party members have Wisdom of 10 or more. As dungeon master you can write passive perception number of each character to edge of paper and easily compare this number to all hidden things such as traps. Check Player's Handbook page 177 box with information about hiding.
Cheers , so do you mean that a perception check is always a passive check? I thought that searching for a hidden object for example would be an active roll of the dice.
If the players are actively looking for something, all players involved in the search will roll a d20 for the perception check. This is what is needed to find the hidden door. If they do not look for it, they don't find it.
Passive perception is used as the DC check that the monsters making a stealth check need to beat to sneak up on the party and surprise them. You can find the rules for surprise in combat rules, but here is a summary: all creatures trying to sneak roll stealth, they (individually) are hidden (unseen/totally obscured) from any creature with a passive perception less than its stealth roll, if a creature (player) has a passive perception lower than all enemy stealth checks they are surprised and skip their first turn of battle.
Hope that helps.
Thanks for the help, that does make sense. I'm a little puzzled by the variations in the instructions within the Thundertree Ruins part of LMoP.
There are three encounters that involve spotting Twig Blights, all requiring a perception check opposed by the Twig Blights stealth but all slightly different;
Area one says "... compare the results to the passive Wisdom (perception) scores of the players..." (so all players)
Area two says "Spotting them requires a successful Wisdom (perception) check..." (so one or perhaps all players?, active rolls?)
Area 12 says "Allow each character to attempt a Wisdom (perception) check... to avoid being surprised by them" (so all characters, rolling for it).
I wonder if this is just slightly sloppy writing or if there is any intention to these differences? Because some of these are clearly passive and some are active rolls.
I think I know why this is. Lost mine of phandelver is the starter kit adventure. It is teaching you (as a new DM) different ways to handle an ambush. Passive perception, active search before hand, and reactive (called for) roll.
You may notice other sections in the adventure that do the same situation differently in a short time.
Thanks for corrections. So Perception can be passive or active check depending on situation. A bit confusing.
Basically, it is all up to DM style and situation. If the creatures need to advance to get in range, rolling stealth against PC passive is probably the way to go. If it is a lying in wait kind if thing, the other two methods would be more appropriate (I would default to the reaction method for this unless a player says that are being watchful).
Cheers. I see that it's possibleto just use what feels right so I'll run with that. I didn't want to mess up something as important as perception during our first sessions.
LMoP is meant to teach both the players and the DM how to play the game. The reason it calls for active perception checks when you first walk into a situation (which an experienced DM would almost never do for an experienced party), is to teach the players to start searching around on their own. As you play, you'll learn to call for ability checks as your players say "I want to x."
The advanced technique is that perception is always passive unless a player asks what they can see or what they notice, or really any other situation in which they're using sight, sound, or smell actively. You should never call on them to make a perception check without cause, once they know how to play the game.
I will continue this thread with one more example from my project Clam Island.
"Roll Perception (Wisdom, passive) check, DC 13. If check fails characters do not spot the pressure plate at middle of the hallway. If character steps on it spears hit from wall causing 4d6 damage."
What do you think about this one? Is pressure plate trap passive or active check? Personally I think passive is better because if active check is required it is forcing players to do searching in every room and hallway just in case.
Again, it is largely up to the DM to decide. I would make noticing the pressure plate require an active check.