I've been getting a lot of frustratingly bad etiquette from my players lately.
Cross talk from players when it's not their turn
Not knowing what to do on their turn, even when I prep them in advance that their turn is coming next
Not knowing basic player stats or their class specific rules
Interrupting the entire session to take a personal break, bathroom, smoke, food, drinks
Interrupting each other
Not taking notes or remembering basic things related to plot or NPCs
Not committing to show up
The only things that's improving is they're metagaming less, and when I tell them not to metagame, they stop because they realize they have more fun seeing the consequences of their decisive action. Everyone seems to be having FUN, except me, but not in any structured way and it is frustrating that there is no respect for the effort I'm putting in.
When my players become disruptive like that I do one of two things. I will stop talking and just wait for them to notice, it's no problem for me to let them waste their time. The content isn't going anywhere, the story is simply waiting for them to get back to it. Otherwise, I'll just speak up and tell them that they're being too loud. Generally they'll realize their mistake and tone it down.
Not knowing what to do on their turn, even when I prep them in advance that their turn is coming next
I told the players, after about 6 months of gaming, that I wasn't going to wait for them to look up spells and abilities. I explained that if they took too long I'd skip their turn, if there was a point of confusion, they need to ask me, otherwise it's their job to be ready. There's a little grace for a couple players who are a bit slower, but even they started to pick up the pace after losing 2 or 3 turns in a few combats.
Not knowing basic player stats or their class specific rules
I help my players out for the first 3 levels, giving them all the assistance they need to get comfortable with their characters. After level 3 I tell them that I'll be doing it less and less and at level 5 I would stop all together. I stuck to my guns, I'd wait until their turn was done or combat was over and point out the mistakes and triggers that were made. I'm still trying to get them to make educated decisions, but I'm no longer giving them the info. They are responsible for their characters, I'm too busy with everything else.
Interrupting the entire session to take a personal break, bathroom, smoke, food, drinks
If they're MIA then they miss turns, miss out on conversations, they simply miss out. If it's not a group break, where we all get up and stretch our legs, then I simply keep playing. Their party members can inform them of what they've missed. They made the decision to get up and wander off, or not come back with the rest of the group, they can catch up when they return.
Interrupting each other
That's between the players and they can handle it as they see fit. Until it becomes a problem with the whole table, just let it happen. Someone will eventually start to point it out, get frustrated and speak up, or it will just be the way the table works. If you are in the middle of talking with the player who's interrupted, then you simply tell the person who interrupted to hold on and go back to the person you were originally with.
Not taking notes or remembering basic things related to plot or NPCs
That's not your problem. If they don't take notes, don't remember things, forget important plot points, then they suffer for it. It's the players responsibility not yours.
Not committing to show up
I have no problem asking people if they're no longer interested in the game if they've missed 2 or 3 sessions. Sometimes other obligations interfere and it may be better to step out of the game. If there's no such interference then I simply tell them that if they continue to miss games I'll remove them. I've kicked my own brother out of a game because he missed 3 games in a row without saying a word to me.
Not everyone has the same play style or reasons for playing. If everyone's having fun but you, then that's not really their problem. They are getting what they want out of the game, and it could be the case you want a more serious experience and they're happy with a more casual one. So much of the success or failure of any given game comes down to whether people are on the same page with regard to what kind of experience they want. I have been in games where crosstalk is not accepted in the least, and I've been in games where crosstalk represents no less than 50% of what goes on in an entire session. They can both be good experiences as long as you go in with the right expectations.
As the DM in crosstalk-heavy, relatively non-serious games, I tend to do a lot less prep work, have low expectations for much getting accomplished in game, and just go with the flow. I end up improvising a lot. Those types of games aren't my preference, but they can be fun too, especially if I dial down my own effort level and save it for other groups that are more into the game and world building.
It's up to you what your criteria are for what represents a good game, but trying to impose those on other people who want different things out of the game is usually an exercise in futility and frustration. It's better to find out upfront what style of game people are looking for and hash it out in a session zero. If you want to try to nudge the group you have toward different behavior, you can try talking to them about it and saying you want to get more serious about the gaming aspect and see what they think.
All that said, at the very least people should show up when they say they will. Regardless of what style of game someone likes, that's just rude and has nothing to do with gaming preferences. At least call and say you won't be there, and try to give some notice when that happens. Can't really see myself tolerating too much of that from anyone who doesn't have a great reason for it.
The not knowing stats and class stuff is pretty common. Unless someone is really enthusiastic about the game, and or they're new, they won't have it memorized for a while. It takes more or less time for different people to.
My players using DND Beyond on their phone has really helped them keep up with Stats, Abilities, and HP. I pay for the DM package which allows all my players to have access to everything I've purchased. Asking them to slip you a couple $1's for Subclasses/Races/Spells that they want is a great way to offset the cost and you get to keep those things forever. Also, splitting up the subscription 5 ways isn't a bad idea either.
That won't solve your social problems. I actually use a stupid bell that my players call the Annoyed DM Bell. I just ring it when they aren't paying attention or cross talking. The important thing is to be smiling or grinning light heartedly when you admonishing them so as not to sour the atmosphere.
I think some context would be helpful here. How new are these players? How many players are there? How long are your game sessions typically?
2 of us have played weekly for about two years between 2e/5e. 3 have played weekly for about 6 months, but with long breaks in between campaigns. One player is new to these sessions but had experience beforehand with 5e and picked up the game quickly. I noticed there are a few bad player combinations. We had five, then one dropped and things significantly improved. We had only three for a while. When I couldn't even get the session started we had five, including this new player. Timewise... I have to leave work at 4 to pick up people, then get to the host's house by 6. We usually start playing around 7/730, then 'play' until 10/1030. We then leave around 12. So I'd say we hang out for six hours, play for three of those hours, but only get about an actual 90 minutes of playtime.
The cross talk is very frustrating because I will often give wisdom or description of a place to a player based on where they are. And then everyone not listening completely loses this information. They don't listen to each other's turns. And then try metagaming based on what happened on another player's turn... they'll ask "Wait which hobgoblin was already injured!?" and then the other players will inform them which ones to target, and I have to tell them not to metagame, then they'll argue that their character would have just known which have already been injured... and it goes on and on.
As far as disrupting the game, I think it's fine if someone has to take a bathroom break or wants to run to the fridge. The issue is they'll yell 'Don't stop for me! I'll be right back! Does anyone want a beer!? Anyone? No!?" And then when they come back to sit down, one says 'Yes, I'll have a beer!' and then they begin talking about how good the freaking beer.
And to me, it is my problem if they don't take notes. Sometimes they'll ask each other 'Wait, why are we helping this questgiver out?' or 'Who is this person we're supposed to be rescuing?' and I have to remind them or they will simply decide to do something else, even though they committed to helping the session before!
Not knowing stats is very frustrating for me, because I know pretty much every single player's stats and abilities and rules, and most player's don't even know their own rules. The party received a magic staff I customized, just had to find someone to identify it, and had to spend 100g on a pearl to cast the spell. It's now been 6 sessions and they still haven't bothered identifying it yet. And every session, they're like "Wait why don't I have this awesome staff equipped yet!?"
Asking 'which Hobgoblin was already injured' isn't metagaming at all. The PC was there. Unless he was blinded or something, he knows which hobgoblin got injured because he was right there bloody watching it get injured. They're 100% correct on that score; that is NOT metagaming; the gaming 'sin' there is simply not paying attention.
Anyways, IMHO, the correct solution here is to have a non-session ... when everybody shows up, don't start the game, and politely but firmly bring all of these problems to light and have a mature discussion about it. The simple fact of the matter is, they may not be into the game as much as you are, and if that's the case, it might simply be best to dissolve the group.
Straight up, gotta talk to them. I'm about to this myself because I'm not having fun running Princes of the Apocalypse for a comic shop.
My problems include: players just leaving unannounced to buy Magic cards and a Monster, players sorting through character sheets for another game, stupid jokes, in fighting, indecision at the start of a session, no note taking, dumb character builds/questions "for teh lolz", etc.
Just gotta tell them that if the behavior doesn't change, you're out. Simple as that. As a DM, you're obligated to have fun too.
Asking 'which Hobgoblin was already injured' isn't metagaming at all. The PC was there. Unless he was blinded or something, he knows which hobgoblin got injured because he was right there bloody watching it get injured. They're 100% correct on that score; that is NOT metagaming; the gaming 'sin' there is simply not paying attention.
Anyways, IMHO, the correct solution here is to have a non-session ... when everybody shows up, don't start the game, and politely but firmly bring all of these problems to light and have a mature discussion about it. The simple fact of the matter is, they may not be into the game as much as you are, and if that's the case, it might simply be best to dissolve the group.
I agree, it is technically not metagaming, but it is very close. The other players often answer (for me) and then guide them to choosing which one to attack, while 'refamiliarizing them' with what's going on. To me, paying attention to what other character's are doing and saying, is a major part of the team gameplay aspect, and should be rewarded. You should not reward players who don't know what the hell is going on. Otherwise you are just rolling dice and simulating combat.
Personally, I have no problem with players taking a bathroom break. No issue with food or drinks either, as long as they are within reach of the table.
But yes, everything else is a problem, and I would talk with your players. You are the DM. Either they comply with your rules, or they should find another group.
I agree, it is technically not metagaming, but it is very close. The other players often answer (for me) and then guide them to choosing which one to attack, while 'refamiliarizing them' with what's going on. To me, paying attention to what other character's are doing and saying, is a major part of the team gameplay aspect, and should be rewarded. You should not reward players who don't know what the hell is going on. Otherwise you are just rolling dice and simulating combat.
This is one point where I will side with the players on as well. It's easy to miss/forget things like which creature is injured. It's not meta-gaming to ask what a character could see if they were being aware of the battlefield, as it is assumed they are. However, in the case of the players giving executive orders and telling others that they should do this or that...that can be curbed with a very simple house rule.
Only 6 words when it's not your turn.
It really does make things interesting, it challenges the players to be succinct in their wording, and it stops a lot of the problems with 30 minute rounds. A player steps out of the room, they look at the table and ask "What did I miss?" Your players start to speak up and you simply remind them of their 6 word limit. As DM you give them whatever pertinent information they need "The hobgoblin was shot by Suzan, the troglodyte took a chunk out of Brad, and your turn is up after Thomas's". If the players want to talk strategy in the middle of combat, they get 6 words out of their initiative, or they can talk it up on their turn. They can only receive 6 word responses from their other players once, that is their hard limit.
Chiming in on the "which one is injured" thing. The player asking you, the DM, which opponent is injured, is not a problem. It's information that would be easy to determine at a glace were the player actually fighting a monster in person. There's no reason to deny that information just because it's a plastic or pewter model on a table instead of a living thing in front of them.
Other players giving this information, and then trying to strategically redirect the player on how to use their spells, is an issue. How much of that you are willing to allow at your table is up to you, but it should definitely be kept to a minimum. The exception is if the group is coaching a new player who actually needs the guidance. It should still probably come from the DM, but the DM is already managing a ton of things so it can be helpful to have one of the other players take on that role.
Most of these issues make it sound like the players aren't as invested as you may be. Not showing up, not learning about their own characters, not even attempting to remember lore or important info. I would talk with the players that are consistently on this wavelength as it may be that they just want to hang out, and your hang out sessions may only be DnD. If they're not in it to play, as it seems from what you're explaining here is that they really don't care, then maybe let them know they don't have to play at the table and you can try and hang out in other ways where you both can be involved and have a good time.
No DnD is better than bad DnD, and a player that is there but doesn't want to be can really get in the way of a game. It should be fun for everyone, and they should want to experience your world.
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I've been getting a lot of frustratingly bad etiquette from my players lately.
The only things that's improving is they're metagaming less, and when I tell them not to metagame, they stop because they realize they have more fun seeing the consequences of their decisive action. Everyone seems to be having FUN, except me, but not in any structured way and it is frustrating that there is no respect for the effort I'm putting in.
I think some context would be helpful here. How new are these players? How many players are there? How long are your game sessions typically?
Let's have some fun shall we?
When my players become disruptive like that I do one of two things. I will stop talking and just wait for them to notice, it's no problem for me to let them waste their time. The content isn't going anywhere, the story is simply waiting for them to get back to it. Otherwise, I'll just speak up and tell them that they're being too loud. Generally they'll realize their mistake and tone it down.
I told the players, after about 6 months of gaming, that I wasn't going to wait for them to look up spells and abilities. I explained that if they took too long I'd skip their turn, if there was a point of confusion, they need to ask me, otherwise it's their job to be ready. There's a little grace for a couple players who are a bit slower, but even they started to pick up the pace after losing 2 or 3 turns in a few combats.
I help my players out for the first 3 levels, giving them all the assistance they need to get comfortable with their characters. After level 3 I tell them that I'll be doing it less and less and at level 5 I would stop all together. I stuck to my guns, I'd wait until their turn was done or combat was over and point out the mistakes and triggers that were made. I'm still trying to get them to make educated decisions, but I'm no longer giving them the info. They are responsible for their characters, I'm too busy with everything else.
If they're MIA then they miss turns, miss out on conversations, they simply miss out. If it's not a group break, where we all get up and stretch our legs, then I simply keep playing. Their party members can inform them of what they've missed. They made the decision to get up and wander off, or not come back with the rest of the group, they can catch up when they return.
That's between the players and they can handle it as they see fit. Until it becomes a problem with the whole table, just let it happen. Someone will eventually start to point it out, get frustrated and speak up, or it will just be the way the table works. If you are in the middle of talking with the player who's interrupted, then you simply tell the person who interrupted to hold on and go back to the person you were originally with.
That's not your problem. If they don't take notes, don't remember things, forget important plot points, then they suffer for it. It's the players responsibility not yours.
I have no problem asking people if they're no longer interested in the game if they've missed 2 or 3 sessions. Sometimes other obligations interfere and it may be better to step out of the game. If there's no such interference then I simply tell them that if they continue to miss games I'll remove them. I've kicked my own brother out of a game because he missed 3 games in a row without saying a word to me.
Not everyone has the same play style or reasons for playing. If everyone's having fun but you, then that's not really their problem. They are getting what they want out of the game, and it could be the case you want a more serious experience and they're happy with a more casual one. So much of the success or failure of any given game comes down to whether people are on the same page with regard to what kind of experience they want. I have been in games where crosstalk is not accepted in the least, and I've been in games where crosstalk represents no less than 50% of what goes on in an entire session. They can both be good experiences as long as you go in with the right expectations.
As the DM in crosstalk-heavy, relatively non-serious games, I tend to do a lot less prep work, have low expectations for much getting accomplished in game, and just go with the flow. I end up improvising a lot. Those types of games aren't my preference, but they can be fun too, especially if I dial down my own effort level and save it for other groups that are more into the game and world building.
It's up to you what your criteria are for what represents a good game, but trying to impose those on other people who want different things out of the game is usually an exercise in futility and frustration. It's better to find out upfront what style of game people are looking for and hash it out in a session zero. If you want to try to nudge the group you have toward different behavior, you can try talking to them about it and saying you want to get more serious about the gaming aspect and see what they think.
All that said, at the very least people should show up when they say they will. Regardless of what style of game someone likes, that's just rude and has nothing to do with gaming preferences. At least call and say you won't be there, and try to give some notice when that happens. Can't really see myself tolerating too much of that from anyone who doesn't have a great reason for it.
The not knowing stats and class stuff is pretty common. Unless someone is really enthusiastic about the game, and or they're new, they won't have it memorized for a while. It takes more or less time for different people to.
Also known as CrafterB and DankMemer.
Here, have some homebrew classes! Subclasses to? Why not races. Feats, feats as well. I have a lot of magic items. Lastly I got monsters, fun, fun times.
My players using DND Beyond on their phone has really helped them keep up with Stats, Abilities, and HP. I pay for the DM package which allows all my players to have access to everything I've purchased. Asking them to slip you a couple $1's for Subclasses/Races/Spells that they want is a great way to offset the cost and you get to keep those things forever. Also, splitting up the subscription 5 ways isn't a bad idea either.
That won't solve your social problems. I actually use a stupid bell that my players call the Annoyed DM Bell. I just ring it when they aren't paying attention or cross talking. The important thing is to be smiling or grinning light heartedly when you admonishing them so as not to sour the atmosphere.
2 of us have played weekly for about two years between 2e/5e. 3 have played weekly for about 6 months, but with long breaks in between campaigns. One player is new to these sessions but had experience beforehand with 5e and picked up the game quickly. I noticed there are a few bad player combinations. We had five, then one dropped and things significantly improved. We had only three for a while. When I couldn't even get the session started we had five, including this new player. Timewise... I have to leave work at 4 to pick up people, then get to the host's house by 6. We usually start playing around 7/730, then 'play' until 10/1030. We then leave around 12. So I'd say we hang out for six hours, play for three of those hours, but only get about an actual 90 minutes of playtime.
All good advice, thanks!
The cross talk is very frustrating because I will often give wisdom or description of a place to a player based on where they are. And then everyone not listening completely loses this information. They don't listen to each other's turns. And then try metagaming based on what happened on another player's turn... they'll ask "Wait which hobgoblin was already injured!?" and then the other players will inform them which ones to target, and I have to tell them not to metagame, then they'll argue that their character would have just known which have already been injured... and it goes on and on.
As far as disrupting the game, I think it's fine if someone has to take a bathroom break or wants to run to the fridge. The issue is they'll yell 'Don't stop for me! I'll be right back! Does anyone want a beer!? Anyone? No!?" And then when they come back to sit down, one says 'Yes, I'll have a beer!' and then they begin talking about how good the freaking beer.
And to me, it is my problem if they don't take notes. Sometimes they'll ask each other 'Wait, why are we helping this questgiver out?' or 'Who is this person we're supposed to be rescuing?' and I have to remind them or they will simply decide to do something else, even though they committed to helping the session before!
Not knowing stats is very frustrating for me, because I know pretty much every single player's stats and abilities and rules, and most player's don't even know their own rules. The party received a magic staff I customized, just had to find someone to identify it, and had to spend 100g on a pearl to cast the spell. It's now been 6 sessions and they still haven't bothered identifying it yet. And every session, they're like "Wait why don't I have this awesome staff equipped yet!?"
Asking 'which Hobgoblin was already injured' isn't metagaming at all. The PC was there. Unless he was blinded or something, he knows which hobgoblin got injured because he was right there bloody watching it get injured. They're 100% correct on that score; that is NOT metagaming; the gaming 'sin' there is simply not paying attention.
Anyways, IMHO, the correct solution here is to have a non-session ... when everybody shows up, don't start the game, and politely but firmly bring all of these problems to light and have a mature discussion about it. The simple fact of the matter is, they may not be into the game as much as you are, and if that's the case, it might simply be best to dissolve the group.
Straight up, gotta talk to them. I'm about to this myself because I'm not having fun running Princes of the Apocalypse for a comic shop.
My problems include: players just leaving unannounced to buy Magic cards and a Monster, players sorting through character sheets for another game, stupid jokes, in fighting, indecision at the start of a session, no note taking, dumb character builds/questions "for teh lolz", etc.
Just gotta tell them that if the behavior doesn't change, you're out. Simple as that. As a DM, you're obligated to have fun too.
I agree, it is technically not metagaming, but it is very close. The other players often answer (for me) and then guide them to choosing which one to attack, while 'refamiliarizing them' with what's going on. To me, paying attention to what other character's are doing and saying, is a major part of the team gameplay aspect, and should be rewarded. You should not reward players who don't know what the hell is going on. Otherwise you are just rolling dice and simulating combat.
Personally, I have no problem with players taking a bathroom break. No issue with food or drinks either, as long as they are within reach of the table.
But yes, everything else is a problem, and I would talk with your players. You are the DM. Either they comply with your rules, or they should find another group.
This is one point where I will side with the players on as well. It's easy to miss/forget things like which creature is injured. It's not meta-gaming to ask what a character could see if they were being aware of the battlefield, as it is assumed they are. However, in the case of the players giving executive orders and telling others that they should do this or that...that can be curbed with a very simple house rule.
Only 6 words when it's not your turn.
It really does make things interesting, it challenges the players to be succinct in their wording, and it stops a lot of the problems with 30 minute rounds. A player steps out of the room, they look at the table and ask "What did I miss?" Your players start to speak up and you simply remind them of their 6 word limit. As DM you give them whatever pertinent information they need "The hobgoblin was shot by Suzan, the troglodyte took a chunk out of Brad, and your turn is up after Thomas's". If the players want to talk strategy in the middle of combat, they get 6 words out of their initiative, or they can talk it up on their turn. They can only receive 6 word responses from their other players once, that is their hard limit.
Chiming in on the "which one is injured" thing. The player asking you, the DM, which opponent is injured, is not a problem. It's information that would be easy to determine at a glace were the player actually fighting a monster in person. There's no reason to deny that information just because it's a plastic or pewter model on a table instead of a living thing in front of them.
Other players giving this information, and then trying to strategically redirect the player on how to use their spells, is an issue. How much of that you are willing to allow at your table is up to you, but it should definitely be kept to a minimum. The exception is if the group is coaching a new player who actually needs the guidance. It should still probably come from the DM, but the DM is already managing a ton of things so it can be helpful to have one of the other players take on that role.
Most of these issues make it sound like the players aren't as invested as you may be. Not showing up, not learning about their own characters, not even attempting to remember lore or important info. I would talk with the players that are consistently on this wavelength as it may be that they just want to hang out, and your hang out sessions may only be DnD. If they're not in it to play, as it seems from what you're explaining here is that they really don't care, then maybe let them know they don't have to play at the table and you can try and hang out in other ways where you both can be involved and have a good time.
No DnD is better than bad DnD, and a player that is there but doesn't want to be can really get in the way of a game. It should be fun for everyone, and they should want to experience your world.