I have been running a long lived campaign of 5th edition D&D on Roll20 with a mature group of players where several players have come and gone and new players have joined. The one constant is one of my closest friends has stuck it out through thick and thin. When others did not show he would be there, as new players would join us he was almost always there. This particular player is over 50 and has played D&D since 2nd edition and loves to make the most powerful character possible (maybe power gamer?)
Now for the problem and question. Recently we were playing a game and some how we were discussing AC and he told me his AC is 23. The characters are level 8 and that is not impossible but it threw a flag for me because I know what items I have introduced into the game and he is playing a duel wielding Ranger. So I pull up his character sheet to see that he has +1 studded leather armor +5 Dex bonus and a shield. I tell him the obvious that he can have a shield but cannot duel wield and gain the benefit from the shield. He argues and tells me it is a buckler and that is is strapped to his arm and so it works. Um no it don't prove it to me and I will allow it but as far as I know from the rules and I am not a big rules lawyer that it is not RAW!!!! He does a search on google and can only find an obscure feat available in 3rd edition that allows it. Now bare in mind we are playing 5th and he says well every system I have ever played in allows this so he does not know why its not allowed in 5th! He know why this is just his argument because he got caught! I dont know why he wants to have a character that can never be hit in combat that dont seem fun to me???? question one AM I wrong is it allowable or am I right and how do I deal with it? also note this happened at the end of our last session so we kinda left right where i left it here with you.
Part two... I just sat down before asking for help here on these forums and decided to check his character for other blaring flaws or mistakes on his character sheet. Since we use point buy system for ability scores it is easy to know what scores should start at. Roll20 allows me to add the +2 ability score improvement and racial improvement on a seperate area so the original ability scores should never change from creation. every score accept his Dex and Con were flubbed by at least 2 points. Also he told me he is not taking the ability score improvement at level 8 and is taking a Feat which I customized to fit his character and the backstory he created. So his character was flubbed by at least +6 points maybe +7 or +8
This give me two responses:
One it makes me mad that he wants to cheat in a game where I am the DM and I make his character the true hero of every adventure .
Two this makes me sad because he is one of my best friends and I dont feel cheating is necessary in this style of game where the narrative is fully sandbox and the players can help build the story.
What do I do as a DM? first off I know I am going to open a line of dialog this is a given but what do I say do I let my anger lead or what do I do I am seriously not sure how to handle this. thanks in advance for your help
Definitely a tough circumstance to navigate given the existing relationship. I'd recommend handling with care and presenting him with opportunities to come out with his dignity intact: rather than accuse him of foul play, ask him what his goals are for the choices that don't follow the rules. Then ask him to work with you to find fairer ways to accomplish those objectives. This way he's not being accused of a crime of sorts and hopefully he won't behave defensively.
Then throughout the conversation reinforce the notion that this is 5th edition, and you're going to require that the choices have to either fit within the rules or they have to be a homebrewed option that you must approve.
Problem 1- No you can't dual wield and use any kind of shield. Its just part of the game balance.
Problem 2- Present things like there must have been a mistake or miscommunication on your part and simply explain that the numbers don't add up. Show him how it should add up assuming the same stat balance. "I must have not made myself clear on our starting points or it looks like something was added twice here.
Good Advice Thanks. It would be real easy for me to go all hot headed on him but its just a game and I want him to have a great time but not at the expense of the game being fun for all. I have to approch this with kit gloves after our last conversation and him be so confident that a shield and dual wield is a thing. again thanks
Problem 1- No you can't dual wield and use any kind of shield. Its just part of the game balance.
Problem 2- Present things like there must have been a mistake or miscommunication on your part and simply explain that the numbers don't add up. Show him how it should add up assuming the same stat balance. "I must have not made myself clear on our starting points or it looks like something was added twice here.
Thanks for the confirmation on problem 1
great idea coming at this like it was just an error. This might work, just know I am really kinda frazzed about the whole situation i feel like just wiping the game and starting a new from scratch campaign with more clear communications from the beginning . I thought cheating was a implied thing I guess not?
If you want to meet him halfway offer it as a feat like it may have been in 3rd edition splat books.
Or
A specialized piece of equipment. If he is using a buckler he needs to use a Maine Gaunche (a special dueling stiletto type dagger for use with a buckler) or look up Pathfinder Klar. In either case if he uses it to attack he does not get the AC bonus.
First of all, how does his AC add up to 23? Studded leather gives an AC of 12+Dexterity modifier, with an additional +1 from being magical. Even with a shield, his AC should only be 20, which is ok for a level 8.
Also, a buckler, being smaller than the average shield, could be homebrewed to grant only a +1 bonus instead of +2 to AC and can be held while dual wielding.
I looked into your question and some how he had his +1 studded leather armor starting at a 13 AC plus the +1 magic property, Dex bonus of +5 , the shield was a +1 as well (not sure where that one came from) for a +3 to AC, a cloak of protection that is legit and finally he has a home brewed / hybrid feat that gives him +1 AC while dual wielding ( I am very flexible). Some how all of that added up to a 23 AC I think it is only a 20 AC if it is applied RAW. Now you know why I am so perplexed some how his entire character is a complete sham and to me that is making the game a complete sham to me.
Hi ... the best way to approach it is without being angry. Yes, he may be cheating. However, he has played for a long time and may just be assuming that things work as they did in previous versions or perhaps as a different DM ran in their homebrew game. It is pretty easy, if you have played 5 or 6 different versions of D&D to make mistakes. He may not be making a mistake but if you phrase the context of the discussion that way then you might be able to get out of the situation without hard feelings.
1) You can't use a shield and dual wield at the same time. In 5e, shields have to be held. There is actually no distinction in 5e between buckers and tower shields. Any changes to how shields work is homebrew territory.
2) You mentioned that the characters are level 8, that they used point buy to start with, the character is taking a feat at level 8. However, this means that their DEX can NOT equal 20. The earliest a ranger can get a 20 dex is at level 8 if both ASIs are spent on DEX. The reason for this is that 15 is the maximum number that can initially be assigned to a stat when using point buy before racial adjustments unless you specifically changed this for your game.
3) AC calculation. Sudded leather +1 = 13 + 5 (dex based on supposed 20) = 18 + 3 (+1 shield) = 21 + 1 cloak of protection = 22. However, if they are also adding the +1 AC from the dual wielding feat at the same time then you could get to 23. This may not be cheating, could just be that they don't understand how all the pieces go together, especially that dual wielding and shield use can't happen at the same time.
4) There is a dual wielding feat in the PHB that adds +1 to AC. If the character is variant human then they could have taken this feat at 1st level.
With +1 armor, +1 from the dual wielding feat, +1 cloak of protection and +5 dex their AC should be 20. If they swapped to the shield+1 and a one-handed weapon it goes to 22. These are still good AC values.
5) As for their stats, there is no way for us to comment whether the stats were possible or not unless you list the stats and the starting race for us to take a look at.
Anyway, I'd suggest chatting to the player by themselves. You don't want anyone else to be listening when you have this discussion since you don't want to make your friend feel bad, you just want to fix some values that don't seem to be consistent with the rules that seem to have slipped into his character sheet "accidentally". He might even have just been believing the character sheet that D&D Beyond produced without thinking about whether the options on the sheet were actually possible. Due to homebrew and other customizations, the D&D character sheets don't necessarily enforce the "rules", so if he adds the +1 armor and shield, the +1 cloak and the dual wield feature and the character sheet says his AC is 23 then why not?
Hi ... the best way to approach it is without being angry. Yes, he may be cheating. However, he has played for a long time and may just be assuming that things work as they did in previous versions or perhaps as a different DM ran in their homebrew game. It is pretty easy, if you have played 5 or 6 different versions of D&D to make mistakes. He may not be making a mistake but if you phrase the context of the discussion that way then you might be able to get out of the situation without hard feelings.
1) You can't use a shield and dual wield at the same time. In 5e, shields have to be held. There is actually no distinction in 5e between buckers and tower shields. Any changes to how shields work is homebrew territory.
2) You mentioned that the characters are level 8, that they used point buy to start with, the character is taking a feat at level 8. However, this means that their DEX can NOT equal 20. The earliest a ranger can get a 20 dex is at level 8 if both ASIs are spent on DEX. The reason for this is that 15 is the maximum number that can initially be assigned to a stat when using point buy before racial adjustments unless you specifically changed this for your game.
3) AC calculation. Sudded leather +1 = 13 + 5 (dex based on supposed 20) = 18 + 3 (+1 shield) = 21 + 1 cloak of protection = 22. However, if they are also adding the +1 AC from the dual wielding feat at the same time then you could get to 23. This may not be cheating, could just be that they don't understand how all the pieces go together, especially that dual wielding and shield use can't happen at the same time.
4) There is a dual wielding feat in the PHB that adds +1 to AC. If the character is variant human then they could have taken this feat at 1st level.
With +1 armor, +1 from the dual wielding feat, +1 cloak of protection and +5 dex their AC should be 20. If they swapped to the shield+1 and a one-handed weapon it goes to 22. These are still good AC values.
5) As for their stats, there is no way for us to comment whether the stats were possible or not unless you list the stats and the starting race for us to take a look at.
Anyway, I'd suggest chatting to the player by themselves. You don't want anyone else to be listening when you have this discussion since you don't want to make your friend feel bad, you just want to fix some values that don't seem to be consistent with the rules that seem to have slipped into his character sheet "accidentally". He might even have just been believing the character sheet that D&D Beyond produced without thinking about whether the options on the sheet were actually possible. Due to homebrew and other customizations, the D&D character sheets don't necessarily enforce the "rules", so if he adds the +1 armor and shield, the +1 cloak and the dual wield feature and the character sheet says his AC is 23 then why not?
First off let me thank you for a very well thought out post and thanks for hitting every point that I mentioned.
1.No home brew for this in my campaign so he just flat out has been doing it wrong for a while now.
2.Yeah he has a 20 Dex and has a feat at level 8 so total flub here on his part.
3.Studded Leather +1(13AC) / +5 dex bonus /Cloak of Protection / Home brew feat (+1 AC) should be 20 AC which is really good. he complained that now he don't have a 23, give me a break already ( : . Oh and by the way his AC is 21 because for some reason his studded leather armor is AC 13 base then add the +1 for its magic properties?!?!? HOW THE....?!?! please help me already LOL
4. His character is wood elf but he has a free feat anyway because he took the level 8 ability score improvement and a feat because he can do that i guess he is special.
5.Wood Elf level 8 ability scores are as follows STR-14 DEX-20 CON-12 INT-12 WIS-14 CHR-14 HP-75 (really he rolls real high on those HP rolls dont he)
The more I look at his character sheet the more I see he just wants to have the best of everything and dont care about the rules. I am so frustrated the more I think about it, I feel like he has violated my trust as a friend and a DM. I will take you advice as it is sound and Wednesday after our next session I will come back and let you all know what happens.
To be honest though I am seriously thinking about FUBARing this campaign and starting new. but I have not made up my mind on that one yet. Of course if I do FUBAR I am not going to tell anyone he is the reason I will have a legit reason completely unrelated to his actions. I will lay down some really clear rules for the next campaign moving forward.
Thanks to everyone for your help in working out how to move forward with my silly issue.
I've seen some cases of players accidentally making mistakes similar to the ones described. One case in particular I remember was when a player got a weapon that gave a +1 attack bonus with no damage bonus and created it via the homebrew tools on here. They didn't notice that the bonus had been set to give the +1 to all attacks, even ones with other weapons, and trusted their displayed stats. (the player in question was also the one to eventually notice the mistake)
That said, this feels more like other people I've played with who feel it's only cheating if you get caught. It's possible that he accidentally set up the magic item incorrectly and that he thought he could get a feat and an ASI each 4 levels and that he somehow messed up his hp rolls (should have 72 hp if he maxed every single roll) but it is far more likely that this is deliberate and probably not the first time.
Hi ... the best way to approach it is without being angry. Yes, he may be cheating. However, he has played for a long time and may just be assuming that things work as they did in previous versions or perhaps as a different DM ran in their homebrew game. It is pretty easy, if you have played 5 or 6 different versions of D&D to make mistakes. He may not be making a mistake but if you phrase the context of the discussion that way then you might be able to get out of the situation without hard feelings.
1) You can't use a shield and dual wield at the same time. In 5e, shields have to be held. There is actually no distinction in 5e between buckers and tower shields. Any changes to how shields work is homebrew territory.
2) You mentioned that the characters are level 8, that they used point buy to start with, the character is taking a feat at level 8. However, this means that their DEX can NOT equal 20. The earliest a ranger can get a 20 dex is at level 8 if both ASIs are spent on DEX. The reason for this is that 15 is the maximum number that can initially be assigned to a stat when using point buy before racial adjustments unless you specifically changed this for your game.
3) AC calculation. Sudded leather +1 = 13 + 5 (dex based on supposed 20) = 18 + 3 (+1 shield) = 21 + 1 cloak of protection = 22. However, if they are also adding the +1 AC from the dual wielding feat at the same time then you could get to 23. This may not be cheating, could just be that they don't understand how all the pieces go together, especially that dual wielding and shield use can't happen at the same time.
4) There is a dual wielding feat in the PHB that adds +1 to AC. If the character is variant human then they could have taken this feat at 1st level.
With +1 armor, +1 from the dual wielding feat, +1 cloak of protection and +5 dex their AC should be 20. If they swapped to the shield+1 and a one-handed weapon it goes to 22. These are still good AC values.
5) As for their stats, there is no way for us to comment whether the stats were possible or not unless you list the stats and the starting race for us to take a look at.
Anyway, I'd suggest chatting to the player by themselves. You don't want anyone else to be listening when you have this discussion since you don't want to make your friend feel bad, you just want to fix some values that don't seem to be consistent with the rules that seem to have slipped into his character sheet "accidentally". He might even have just been believing the character sheet that D&D Beyond produced without thinking about whether the options on the sheet were actually possible. Due to homebrew and other customizations, the D&D character sheets don't necessarily enforce the "rules", so if he adds the +1 armor and shield, the +1 cloak and the dual wield feature and the character sheet says his AC is 23 then why not?
First off let me thank you for a very well thought out post and thanks for hitting every point that I mentioned.
1.No home brew for this in my campaign so he just flat out has been doing it wrong for a while now.
2.Yeah he has a 20 Dex and has a feat at level 8 so total flub here on his part.
3.Studded Leather +1(13AC) / +5 dex bonus /Cloak of Protection / Home brew feat (+1 AC) should be 20 AC which is really good. he complained that now he don't have a 23, give me a break already ( : . Oh and by the way his AC is 21 because for some reason his studded leather armor is AC 13 base then add the +1 for its magic properties?!?!? HOW THE....?!?! please help me already LOL
4. His character is wood elf but he has a free feat anyway because he took the level 8 ability score improvement and a feat because he can do that i guess he is special.
5.Wood Elf level 8 ability scores are as follows STR-14 DEX-20 CON-12 INT-12 WIS-14 CHR-14 HP-75 (really he rolls real high on those HP rolls dont he)
The more I look at his character sheet the more I see he just wants to have the best of everything and dont care about the rules. I am so frustrated the more I think about it, I feel like he has violated my trust as a friend and a DM. I will take you advice as it is sound and Wednesday after our next session I will come back and let you all know what happens.
To be honest though I am seriously thinking about FUBARing this campaign and starting new. but I have not made up my mind on that one yet. Of course if I do FUBAR I am not going to tell anyone he is the reason I will have a legit reason completely unrelated to his actions. I will lay down some really clear rules for the next campaign moving forward.
Thanks to everyone for your help in working out how to move forward with my silly issue.
Well. The character certainly seems to have been built breaking several of the ground rules you have outlined.
Point buy is usually 27 points. Even if the person believed that every stat point only cost 1 point (rather than increasing to 2 points after 13) .. the stats you listed are still too high. However, it is only a little too high if every stat costs 1 point.
The maximum possible hit points for a level 8 ranger with 12 con is 88. 75 represents VERY good rolling. The usual way to avoid variations is to use average hit points (max at first level). In this system the ranger would end up with 43+8 = 51 hit points.
On the other hand, if you are rolling for hit points, the player might have thought that you were also supposed to roll for stats and created the character that way instead of using point buy. They may not have understood how the character was to be created especially if they played a lot of previous versions where rolling for stats is the most common procedure.
You mention a home brewed dual wielding feat that gives +1AC. How does this feat differ from the standard players handbook dual wielding feat?
"DUAL WIELDER You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits: • You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand. • You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't light. • You can draw or stow two one•handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one."
Anyway, if I was you I would try very hard not to take it personally. There are folks out there who try to cheat and get away with it and others who just don't understand the rules. I knew someone who strongly believed that the table listing the monk movement bonus was additive per level (since it says +10ft) so that a level 2 monk was +10, a level 3 monk was +20, a level 4 monk was +30ft and so on. He would just move that distance when playing and it was a few sessions before anyone questioned it since someone wondered why the level 5 monk -could move 70' ( the maximum would be 55' for a wood elf - with mobile which is common for a monk).
So it may be that they cheat or it may be that they just don't understand ... either way, keep the discussion polite and limit it to fixing the character to conform to the rules you set out at the beginning. Politely explain the errors and ask them to make the corrections. You should probably also take a look at the characters of the other players just to be fair.
Finally, if folks are enjoying your current campaign then I wouldn't cancel it just because of some errors with character sheets. Usually, the mistakes or bad behaviour aren't personally directed at the DM or any of the other players - the player involved enjoys a better than average character and doesn't want to work for it - so they cheat. However, cheating at role playing games is ultimately pointless since it isn't as if there are winners and losers. If there is any game that is played for the joy of playing rather than winning it has to be role playing games.
I had a friend of mine that was cheating in a game to the point where everyone was getting upset with him. He was called out on it and eventually he was simply not allowed to play with the group any longer. This was after several chats with him mind you. He is in fact a power gamer and will make any attempt to get an advantage over other players in any game he plays. Im fine with it as long as you play by the rules but he was not. Funny thing is he cannot seem to find a group and the few times he did he did not last long. Some people are just like that.
If your friend gets defensive and angry anyways and tries to make you out to be the bad guy, let him know that as a DM you put a lot of time and energy into putting a game together *for everyone* that is challenging and fun, and that him cheating around all that is incredibly disrespectful towards your efforts. Because, like, if he wanted to play a game where he just wins everything all the time automatically, that would've been waaaaay easier for you to run if only he'd said that.
That said, hopefully it doesn't come to that since if it has, he's unlikely to listen. My guess is he fudged rolls to make it fun for himself and like, in his mind it's his little secret and nobody will know and it only effects him. Remind him that it effects everyone who plays in the game and makes it not fun.
It sounds to me like he might not understand that the mechanics are different with 5th edition than any of the previous editions. He might be doing it on purpose though. Either way, I would have him read the 5th PHB and/or the 5th DMG so that he can see first-hand why his "rules" are wrong. If it's too much of a problem/if he won't change, you could edit his character sheet to be as it should, perhaps printing it out and editing yourself when needed.*
Anyway, make sure he knows D&D isn't just about winning, and his character and game-play has an effect on the adventures and other party members and their experience(s).
Good luck! I hope this helped.
*I always level up their characters for them, not really for any reason other than my first DM did that for us. We also roll our stats together for the most part, and I often look at their character sheets during the session, so cheating isn't very easy. If you're doing this all online though, you can't really do that.
Not to be overly simplistic, but just add +2 to all your attacks against him. Or drop rocks on him and make him roll a new character. You are the DM, it's your world.
You know I have a player that I know cheats. He always fudges his rolls. I know. 100% positive. He does it all the time. I don’t make a big deal. I pretend like I don’t know. That’s the story he wants. It’s the story I let him have. I just find other ways to challenge him.
To an extend I would recommend giving him space. That AC though is a bit much. There’s a lot of Shenanigans going on with that. I wouldn’t allow that.
Every post here has been a great help. We have played since I posted this and I only talked to him about his AC. That has been fixed and he kinda has straightened up some since then.. However the rest of his character is totally out of wack and I am just going to let it stand as is. He has been playing with a cheating character for so long I decided its just not worth the argument and the hassle. I am going to start a new campaign Curse of Strahd, and I will make sure I set the ground rules set before we begin. He will be playing in the new campaign as well and he will know the characters will be following all 5e rules not 3.5e unless I approve it and it will be noted on the character sheet.
Thanks for all the help I have taken each and ever post into consideration and they are all great ideas and most of them would have worked. This player is just set in his ways I am afraid and I know how he plays so it is what it is. Future campaigns will be controlled and this will be disclosed before we begin the campaign.
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I have been running a long lived campaign of 5th edition D&D on Roll20 with a mature group of players where several players have come and gone and new players have joined. The one constant is one of my closest friends has stuck it out through thick and thin. When others did not show he would be there, as new players would join us he was almost always there. This particular player is over 50 and has played D&D since 2nd edition and loves to make the most powerful character possible (maybe power gamer?)
Now for the problem and question. Recently we were playing a game and some how we were discussing AC and he told me his AC is 23. The characters are level 8 and that is not impossible but it threw a flag for me because I know what items I have introduced into the game and he is playing a duel wielding Ranger. So I pull up his character sheet to see that he has +1 studded leather armor +5 Dex bonus and a shield. I tell him the obvious that he can have a shield but cannot duel wield and gain the benefit from the shield. He argues and tells me it is a buckler and that is is strapped to his arm and so it works. Um no it don't prove it to me and I will allow it but as far as I know from the rules and I am not a big rules lawyer that it is not RAW!!!! He does a search on google and can only find an obscure feat available in 3rd edition that allows it. Now bare in mind we are playing 5th and he says well every system I have ever played in allows this so he does not know why its not allowed in 5th! He know why this is just his argument because he got caught! I dont know why he wants to have a character that can never be hit in combat that dont seem fun to me???? question one AM I wrong is it allowable or am I right and how do I deal with it? also note this happened at the end of our last session so we kinda left right where i left it here with you.
Part two... I just sat down before asking for help here on these forums and decided to check his character for other blaring flaws or mistakes on his character sheet. Since we use point buy system for ability scores it is easy to know what scores should start at. Roll20 allows me to add the +2 ability score improvement and racial improvement on a seperate area so the original ability scores should never change from creation. every score accept his Dex and Con were flubbed by at least 2 points. Also he told me he is not taking the ability score improvement at level 8 and is taking a Feat which I customized to fit his character and the backstory he created. So his character was flubbed by at least +6 points maybe +7 or +8
This give me two responses:
One it makes me mad that he wants to cheat in a game where I am the DM and I make his character the true hero of every adventure .
Two this makes me sad because he is one of my best friends and I dont feel cheating is necessary in this style of game where the narrative is fully sandbox and the players can help build the story.
What do I do as a DM? first off I know I am going to open a line of dialog this is a given but what do I say do I let my anger lead or what do I do I am seriously not sure how to handle this. thanks in advance for your help
Definitely a tough circumstance to navigate given the existing relationship. I'd recommend handling with care and presenting him with opportunities to come out with his dignity intact: rather than accuse him of foul play, ask him what his goals are for the choices that don't follow the rules. Then ask him to work with you to find fairer ways to accomplish those objectives. This way he's not being accused of a crime of sorts and hopefully he won't behave defensively.
Then throughout the conversation reinforce the notion that this is 5th edition, and you're going to require that the choices have to either fit within the rules or they have to be a homebrewed option that you must approve.
Problem 1- No you can't dual wield and use any kind of shield. Its just part of the game balance.
Problem 2- Present things like there must have been a mistake or miscommunication on your part and simply explain that the numbers don't add up. Show him how it should add up assuming the same stat balance. "I must have not made myself clear on our starting points or it looks like something was added twice here.
Good Advice Thanks. It would be real easy for me to go all hot headed on him but its just a game and I want him to have a great time but not at the expense of the game being fun for all. I have to approch this with kit gloves after our last conversation and him be so confident that a shield and dual wield is a thing. again thanks
Thanks for the confirmation on problem 1
great idea coming at this like it was just an error. This might work, just know I am really kinda frazzed about the whole situation i feel like just wiping the game and starting a new from scratch campaign with more clear communications from the beginning . I thought cheating was a implied thing I guess not?
Thanks
If you want to meet him halfway offer it as a feat like it may have been in 3rd edition splat books.
Or
A specialized piece of equipment. If he is using a buckler he needs to use a Maine Gaunche (a special dueling stiletto type dagger for use with a buckler) or look up Pathfinder Klar. In either case if he uses it to attack he does not get the AC bonus.
First of all, how does his AC add up to 23? Studded leather gives an AC of 12+Dexterity modifier, with an additional +1 from being magical. Even with a shield, his AC should only be 20, which is ok for a level 8.
Also, a buckler, being smaller than the average shield, could be homebrewed to grant only a +1 bonus instead of +2 to AC and can be held while dual wielding.
I looked into your question and some how he had his +1 studded leather armor starting at a 13 AC plus the +1 magic property, Dex bonus of +5 , the shield was a +1 as well (not sure where that one came from) for a +3 to AC, a cloak of protection that is legit and finally he has a home brewed / hybrid feat that gives him +1 AC while dual wielding ( I am very flexible). Some how all of that added up to a 23 AC I think it is only a 20 AC if it is applied RAW. Now you know why I am so perplexed some how his entire character is a complete sham and to me that is making the game a complete sham to me.
Hi ... the best way to approach it is without being angry. Yes, he may be cheating. However, he has played for a long time and may just be assuming that things work as they did in previous versions or perhaps as a different DM ran in their homebrew game. It is pretty easy, if you have played 5 or 6 different versions of D&D to make mistakes. He may not be making a mistake but if you phrase the context of the discussion that way then you might be able to get out of the situation without hard feelings.
1) You can't use a shield and dual wield at the same time. In 5e, shields have to be held. There is actually no distinction in 5e between buckers and tower shields. Any changes to how shields work is homebrew territory.
2) You mentioned that the characters are level 8, that they used point buy to start with, the character is taking a feat at level 8. However, this means that their DEX can NOT equal 20. The earliest a ranger can get a 20 dex is at level 8 if both ASIs are spent on DEX. The reason for this is that 15 is the maximum number that can initially be assigned to a stat when using point buy before racial adjustments unless you specifically changed this for your game.
3) AC calculation. Sudded leather +1 = 13 + 5 (dex based on supposed 20) = 18 + 3 (+1 shield) = 21 + 1 cloak of protection = 22. However, if they are also adding the +1 AC from the dual wielding feat at the same time then you could get to 23. This may not be cheating, could just be that they don't understand how all the pieces go together, especially that dual wielding and shield use can't happen at the same time.
4) There is a dual wielding feat in the PHB that adds +1 to AC. If the character is variant human then they could have taken this feat at 1st level.
With +1 armor, +1 from the dual wielding feat, +1 cloak of protection and +5 dex their AC should be 20. If they swapped to the shield+1 and a one-handed weapon it goes to 22. These are still good AC values.
5) As for their stats, there is no way for us to comment whether the stats were possible or not unless you list the stats and the starting race for us to take a look at.
Anyway, I'd suggest chatting to the player by themselves. You don't want anyone else to be listening when you have this discussion since you don't want to make your friend feel bad, you just want to fix some values that don't seem to be consistent with the rules that seem to have slipped into his character sheet "accidentally". He might even have just been believing the character sheet that D&D Beyond produced without thinking about whether the options on the sheet were actually possible. Due to homebrew and other customizations, the D&D character sheets don't necessarily enforce the "rules", so if he adds the +1 armor and shield, the +1 cloak and the dual wield feature and the character sheet says his AC is 23 then why not?
First off let me thank you for a very well thought out post and thanks for hitting every point that I mentioned.
1.No home brew for this in my campaign so he just flat out has been doing it wrong for a while now.
2.Yeah he has a 20 Dex and has a feat at level 8 so total flub here on his part.
3.Studded Leather +1(13AC) / +5 dex bonus /Cloak of Protection / Home brew feat (+1 AC) should be 20 AC which is really good. he complained that now he don't have a 23, give me a break already ( : . Oh and by the way his AC is 21 because for some reason his studded leather armor is AC 13 base then add the +1 for its magic properties?!?!? HOW THE....?!?! please help me already LOL
4. His character is wood elf but he has a free feat anyway because he took the level 8 ability score improvement and a feat because he can do that i guess he is special.
5.Wood Elf level 8 ability scores are as follows STR-14 DEX-20 CON-12 INT-12 WIS-14 CHR-14 HP-75 (really he rolls real high on those HP rolls dont he)
The more I look at his character sheet the more I see he just wants to have the best of everything and dont care about the rules. I am so frustrated the more I think about it, I feel like he has violated my trust as a friend and a DM. I will take you advice as it is sound and Wednesday after our next session I will come back and let you all know what happens.
To be honest though I am seriously thinking about FUBARing this campaign and starting new. but I have not made up my mind on that one yet. Of course if I do FUBAR I am not going to tell anyone he is the reason I will have a legit reason completely unrelated to his actions. I will lay down some really clear rules for the next campaign moving forward.
Thanks to everyone for your help in working out how to move forward with my silly issue.
I've seen some cases of players accidentally making mistakes similar to the ones described. One case in particular I remember was when a player got a weapon that gave a +1 attack bonus with no damage bonus and created it via the homebrew tools on here. They didn't notice that the bonus had been set to give the +1 to all attacks, even ones with other weapons, and trusted their displayed stats. (the player in question was also the one to eventually notice the mistake)
That said, this feels more like other people I've played with who feel it's only cheating if you get caught. It's possible that he accidentally set up the magic item incorrectly and that he thought he could get a feat and an ASI each 4 levels and that he somehow messed up his hp rolls (should have 72 hp if he maxed every single roll) but it is far more likely that this is deliberate and probably not the first time.
Well. The character certainly seems to have been built breaking several of the ground rules you have outlined.
Point buy is usually 27 points. Even if the person believed that every stat point only cost 1 point (rather than increasing to 2 points after 13) .. the stats you listed are still too high. However, it is only a little too high if every stat costs 1 point.
The maximum possible hit points for a level 8 ranger with 12 con is 88. 75 represents VERY good rolling. The usual way to avoid variations is to use average hit points (max at first level). In this system the ranger would end up with 43+8 = 51 hit points.
On the other hand, if you are rolling for hit points, the player might have thought that you were also supposed to roll for stats and created the character that way instead of using point buy. They may not have understood how the character was to be created especially if they played a lot of previous versions where rolling for stats is the most common procedure.
You mention a home brewed dual wielding feat that gives +1AC. How does this feat differ from the standard players handbook dual wielding feat?
"DUAL WIELDER
You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits:
• You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand.
• You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't light.
• You can draw or stow two one•handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one."
Anyway, if I was you I would try very hard not to take it personally. There are folks out there who try to cheat and get away with it and others who just don't understand the rules. I knew someone who strongly believed that the table listing the monk movement bonus was additive per level (since it says +10ft) so that a level 2 monk was +10, a level 3 monk was +20, a level 4 monk was +30ft and so on. He would just move that distance when playing and it was a few sessions before anyone questioned it since someone wondered why the level 5 monk -could move 70' ( the maximum would be 55' for a wood elf - with mobile which is common for a monk).
So it may be that they cheat or it may be that they just don't understand ... either way, keep the discussion polite and limit it to fixing the character to conform to the rules you set out at the beginning. Politely explain the errors and ask them to make the corrections. You should probably also take a look at the characters of the other players just to be fair.
Finally, if folks are enjoying your current campaign then I wouldn't cancel it just because of some errors with character sheets. Usually, the mistakes or bad behaviour aren't personally directed at the DM or any of the other players - the player involved enjoys a better than average character and doesn't want to work for it - so they cheat. However, cheating at role playing games is ultimately pointless since it isn't as if there are winners and losers. If there is any game that is played for the joy of playing rather than winning it has to be role playing games.
If he's a close friend, just talk with him about it. He should understand, and change what he's doing.
I had a friend of mine that was cheating in a game to the point where everyone was getting upset with him. He was called out on it and eventually he was simply not allowed to play with the group any longer. This was after several chats with him mind you. He is in fact a power gamer and will make any attempt to get an advantage over other players in any game he plays. Im fine with it as long as you play by the rules but he was not. Funny thing is he cannot seem to find a group and the few times he did he did not last long. Some people are just like that.
If your friend gets defensive and angry anyways and tries to make you out to be the bad guy, let him know that as a DM you put a lot of time and energy into putting a game together *for everyone* that is challenging and fun, and that him cheating around all that is incredibly disrespectful towards your efforts. Because, like, if he wanted to play a game where he just wins everything all the time automatically, that would've been waaaaay easier for you to run if only he'd said that.
That said, hopefully it doesn't come to that since if it has, he's unlikely to listen. My guess is he fudged rolls to make it fun for himself and like, in his mind it's his little secret and nobody will know and it only effects him. Remind him that it effects everyone who plays in the game and makes it not fun.
It sounds to me like he might not understand that the mechanics are different with 5th edition than any of the previous editions. He might be doing it on purpose though. Either way, I would have him read the 5th PHB and/or the 5th DMG so that he can see first-hand why his "rules" are wrong. If it's too much of a problem/if he won't change, you could edit his character sheet to be as it should, perhaps printing it out and editing yourself when needed.*
Anyway, make sure he knows D&D isn't just about winning, and his character and game-play has an effect on the adventures and other party members and their experience(s).
Good luck! I hope this helped.
*I always level up their characters for them, not really for any reason other than my first DM did that for us. We also roll our stats together for the most part, and I often look at their character sheets during the session, so cheating isn't very easy. If you're doing this all online though, you can't really do that.
Not to be overly simplistic, but just add +2 to all your attacks against him. Or drop rocks on him and make him roll a new character. You are the DM, it's your world.
Yikes. Messy.
You know I have a player that I know cheats. He always fudges his rolls. I know. 100% positive. He does it all the time. I don’t make a big deal. I pretend like I don’t know. That’s the story he wants. It’s the story I let him have. I just find other ways to challenge him.
To an extend I would recommend giving him space. That AC though is a bit much. There’s a lot of Shenanigans going on with that. I wouldn’t allow that.
Declare a character audit and go over everybody's sheet looking for *ahem* inconsistencies. That way, you're not singling him out.
Every post here has been a great help. We have played since I posted this and I only talked to him about his AC. That has been fixed and he kinda has straightened up some since then.. However the rest of his character is totally out of wack and I am just going to let it stand as is. He has been playing with a cheating character for so long I decided its just not worth the argument and the hassle. I am going to start a new campaign Curse of Strahd, and I will make sure I set the ground rules set before we begin. He will be playing in the new campaign as well and he will know the characters will be following all 5e rules not 3.5e unless I approve it and it will be noted on the character sheet.
Thanks for all the help I have taken each and ever post into consideration and they are all great ideas and most of them would have worked. This player is just set in his ways I am afraid and I know how he plays so it is what it is. Future campaigns will be controlled and this will be disclosed before we begin the campaign.