I've been playing D&D for decades, but I've never really DMed before. Now I find myself DMing Princes of the Apocalypse with a group of 7 players! Some of which have never played D&D before. I started them off at 1st level and over several sessions they pretty much completed all of the Trouble in Red Larch prologue material. They've done well, and I'm finding with 7 of them, they think of lots of alternatives I haven't. Even the new players.
Last session, they began the investigations of the missing delegation. I'm preparing for Sunday's session, and figure they're going to hit the first Haunted Keep. But as I prepare, I'm finding some uncertainty on how to proceed. Since I like to prepare in advance, and I can only commit so many details to memory at once (to ensure the smoothest play session possible; I hate being a player watching and waiting while the DM flips through books for minutes on end trying to figure out what to do!), I'd like to keep the party mostly on track with how the adventure was written. Aka, let them handle the four haunted keeps in difficulty order, then progress to the four temples in order, and finally the areas of the Temple of the Elder Elemental Eye in order.
1. The Haunted Keeps seem to have friendly and unfriendly options for the characters. I'm finding it a little vague as to what the characters are expected to accomplish in each. Through the prologue, they got the sense of weird elemental stuff going on. And now they are investigating the lost delegation. I guess I'm having a hard time anchoring the overall story to each Keep.
2. Each Keep has access to the Temples below. Each Temple has access to the older Temple below that! How am I going to keep a 3rd level party from wanting to go right down to the 14th level end-game areas? I want them to do the Spire, then Riverguard, then Sacred Stone, and finally Scarlet Moon before even attempting to go down to any of the Temples.
3. Maybe I'm missing something important in the book. But there seems to be a vagueness in the adventure on how to drive the characters where you want. Perhaps it's my inexperience as a DM, and I'm looking for a clearer road map instead of just a description of each area where I need to fill in the gaps.
Thoughts? Suggestions? I appreciate your advice, and thank you in advance.
This guide from the DMsGuild helped me in organizing this adventure. Granted my group ended up breaking up pretty early into it, but I found the adventure itself difficult to follow as a newish DM myself, and the guide was awesome in explaining a decent "order" of things for your party to target. It's free, but feel free to donate to the creator!
I did a dream sequence for the players. Sort of like the "I see you" scene from LotR to teach them about the general presence of the cults and a vague depiction of the different layers of the dwarven city now occupied by the cults. I also brought my wife (one of the PCs) on board like a shill at a magic show. I gave her a little inside info to help keep the party going in the right direction.
For what's it worth, I am DM this adventure now. I decided to treat it as a true sandbox; players can go wherever they want. So, in our session zero, I advised them of that and warned them of that danger as well. They are also aware that this is a big adventure and there is the chance that they'll catch me off guard by going into an area that I did not expect them. They actually get a kick out of that as it makes them feel like they truly are the masters of their own fate -- they surprised the DM!
I guess what I saying is having the discussion upfront helped. My players were more understanding/patient when they go into areas that I was not prepared for.
On a personal note, following the outlined story plot didn't seem realistic to me. What player isn't going to conquer the Scared Stone Monastery, find an ancient stairwell going down, and then decide to skip it and go defeat another keep? ... Which is exactly what my players did! They did learn fairly quickly that they were not strong to go further before anyone died :-) It was the first time that they realized discretion is the better part of valor!
I'm running PotA with three characters, so I've had to be very careful about this. For a while, I agonized over things, trying to figure out tricks and clues to get them where I wanted them to go, but in the end, it was super awkward and felt too railroady.
So to start off I had a strategy of being fairly generous with additional magic items and trying to keep them at least one level above where the adventure wants them by using Milestone Experience.
After getting them through Feathergale Spire, I managed to get them to go to Rivergard Keep next. However, once there, they infiltrated and managed to go all the way down to the Water Temple at 6th level!
And they did okay! They used stealth and guile to infiltrate and attack on their own terms, and managed to clean out the water and air temples despite being relatively underleveled. I was a bit generous about resting in the dungeon, and since these temples were the first breached, the guard responses were a bit lax.
They're now in the Fire Temple at 9th level after exploring a good deal of the Fane of the Eye, and since the cult is now down two prophets, the temple is on high alert, making the going much tougher - but they're managing well. They're retreating when they feel overmatched, and finding other ways to get where they need to go.
They questioned the captives in the Fane of the Eye, which gave me an opportunity to reveal a great deal of information about the cults to the heroes, and they now have a direction - kill the prophets.
I think the bounded accuracy of 5th makes the level differences much easier to handle. I regret that they're not going to see some portions of the adventure, but as long as the narrative flows for them, I think it's okay.
In the end, I realized it was best to let the characters explore organically. If they're too stubborn to retreat from a place they technically aren't ready for, go a little easy but encourage them to retreat. Remember, it's not about following exactly what the book says to do. If the narrative the characters are building makes sense, don't bend over backwards to try to stick to the rigid structure that the book gives you - go with it and adjust to maintain the fun!
Once they hit 6th-7th level, they can explore just about anywhere in the book with a reasonable chance of success.
Remember that the ultimate encounter in this campaign will be the 14th-16th level party party against a CR18-20 monster who has allies! The party is not expected to defeat the princes - they're supposed to use the elemental weapons to banish the prince, and then mop up the remaining cultists. By those terms, a 3rd-level character should "succeed" in the final encounter easily.
Always remember that it's all about the story you're all telling together, not the directions in the book. Hit the beats that he campaign wants you to hit - Elemental trouble, hidden cults, profane temples, and an elemental apocalypse to avert - and you cannot go wrong.
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I've been playing D&D for decades, but I've never really DMed before. Now I find myself DMing Princes of the Apocalypse with a group of 7 players! Some of which have never played D&D before. I started them off at 1st level and over several sessions they pretty much completed all of the Trouble in Red Larch prologue material. They've done well, and I'm finding with 7 of them, they think of lots of alternatives I haven't. Even the new players.
Last session, they began the investigations of the missing delegation. I'm preparing for Sunday's session, and figure they're going to hit the first Haunted Keep. But as I prepare, I'm finding some uncertainty on how to proceed. Since I like to prepare in advance, and I can only commit so many details to memory at once (to ensure the smoothest play session possible; I hate being a player watching and waiting while the DM flips through books for minutes on end trying to figure out what to do!), I'd like to keep the party mostly on track with how the adventure was written. Aka, let them handle the four haunted keeps in difficulty order, then progress to the four temples in order, and finally the areas of the Temple of the Elder Elemental Eye in order.
1. The Haunted Keeps seem to have friendly and unfriendly options for the characters. I'm finding it a little vague as to what the characters are expected to accomplish in each. Through the prologue, they got the sense of weird elemental stuff going on. And now they are investigating the lost delegation. I guess I'm having a hard time anchoring the overall story to each Keep.
2. Each Keep has access to the Temples below. Each Temple has access to the older Temple below that! How am I going to keep a 3rd level party from wanting to go right down to the 14th level end-game areas? I want them to do the Spire, then Riverguard, then Sacred Stone, and finally Scarlet Moon before even attempting to go down to any of the Temples.
3. Maybe I'm missing something important in the book. But there seems to be a vagueness in the adventure on how to drive the characters where you want. Perhaps it's my inexperience as a DM, and I'm looking for a clearer road map instead of just a description of each area where I need to fill in the gaps.
Thoughts? Suggestions? I appreciate your advice, and thank you in advance.
This guide from the DMsGuild helped me in organizing this adventure. Granted my group ended up breaking up pretty early into it, but I found the adventure itself difficult to follow as a newish DM myself, and the guide was awesome in explaining a decent "order" of things for your party to target. It's free, but feel free to donate to the creator!
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!
I did a dream sequence for the players. Sort of like the "I see you" scene from LotR to teach them about the general presence of the cults and a vague depiction of the different layers of the dwarven city now occupied by the cults. I also brought my wife (one of the PCs) on board like a shill at a magic show. I gave her a little inside info to help keep the party going in the right direction.
For what's it worth, I am DM this adventure now. I decided to treat it as a true sandbox; players can go wherever they want. So, in our session zero, I advised them of that and warned them of that danger as well. They are also aware that this is a big adventure and there is the chance that they'll catch me off guard by going into an area that I did not expect them. They actually get a kick out of that as it makes them feel like they truly are the masters of their own fate -- they surprised the DM!
I guess what I saying is having the discussion upfront helped. My players were more understanding/patient when they go into areas that I was not prepared for.
On a personal note, following the outlined story plot didn't seem realistic to me. What player isn't going to conquer the Scared Stone Monastery, find an ancient stairwell going down, and then decide to skip it and go defeat another keep? ... Which is exactly what my players did! They did learn fairly quickly that they were not strong to go further before anyone died :-) It was the first time that they realized discretion is the better part of valor!
I'm running PotA with three characters, so I've had to be very careful about this. For a while, I agonized over things, trying to figure out tricks and clues to get them where I wanted them to go, but in the end, it was super awkward and felt too railroady.
So to start off I had a strategy of being fairly generous with additional magic items and trying to keep them at least one level above where the adventure wants them by using Milestone Experience.
After getting them through Feathergale Spire, I managed to get them to go to Rivergard Keep next. However, once there, they infiltrated and managed to go all the way down to the Water Temple at 6th level!
And they did okay! They used stealth and guile to infiltrate and attack on their own terms, and managed to clean out the water and air temples despite being relatively underleveled. I was a bit generous about resting in the dungeon, and since these temples were the first breached, the guard responses were a bit lax.
They're now in the Fire Temple at 9th level after exploring a good deal of the Fane of the Eye, and since the cult is now down two prophets, the temple is on high alert, making the going much tougher - but they're managing well. They're retreating when they feel overmatched, and finding other ways to get where they need to go.
They questioned the captives in the Fane of the Eye, which gave me an opportunity to reveal a great deal of information about the cults to the heroes, and they now have a direction - kill the prophets.
I think the bounded accuracy of 5th makes the level differences much easier to handle. I regret that they're not going to see some portions of the adventure, but as long as the narrative flows for them, I think it's okay.
In the end, I realized it was best to let the characters explore organically. If they're too stubborn to retreat from a place they technically aren't ready for, go a little easy but encourage them to retreat. Remember, it's not about following exactly what the book says to do. If the narrative the characters are building makes sense, don't bend over backwards to try to stick to the rigid structure that the book gives you - go with it and adjust to maintain the fun!
Once they hit 6th-7th level, they can explore just about anywhere in the book with a reasonable chance of success.
Remember that the ultimate encounter in this campaign will be the 14th-16th level party party against a CR18-20 monster who has allies! The party is not expected to defeat the princes - they're supposed to use the elemental weapons to banish the prince, and then mop up the remaining cultists. By those terms, a 3rd-level character should "succeed" in the final encounter easily.
Always remember that it's all about the story you're all telling together, not the directions in the book. Hit the beats that he campaign wants you to hit - Elemental trouble, hidden cults, profane temples, and an elemental apocalypse to avert - and you cannot go wrong.