a natural 20 only counts as an auto-succeed in the case of a hit. Many house-rule that a natural 20 succeeds on anything, but even so, the rogue still has a higher stealth value.
RAW there is no such thing as a critical success or a critical failure. If the DC is 25 and the barbarian gets a 21 with a natural 20, he still loses the skill check. There is only a critical hit and a critical miss. But, many rule different levels of success anyway (on a DC25 investigation check, a 15 will give some information, a 20 more, a 25 the whole information) and many rule a bonus on a natural 20 on a skill check.
To preserve the boons and cons of the classes, I usually decide not every class is able to perform an ability check in every situation. If the group wants to track steps through the wilderness, I don't let everyone roll. If the group has a ranger I let him make the check for the whole group. If the whole group wants to sneak, I usually let the whole group roll and either decide that more than half the group has to succeed - or - if it is really difficult - everyone needs to succeed.
If someone however wants to do something unrelated to a special class (he wants to jump over a lava pit i.e.) and rolls a 20 on an athletics check, I give him a small boon (like landing perfectly on both feet, not slowing down his run, giving him +5ft jump+run distance or so) to feel epic for that roll.
Either way, RAW the rogue will sneak better with a 27 than a barbarian with a natural 20 and 21 total and because I would not want to steal the class prestige from the rogue, I wouldn't let the barbarian sneak better.
If you still want natural 20s to mean something, you can homebrew it so that it gives another kind of advantage. This barbarian might not be any more stealthy than a 21, but maybe the natural 20 means any attempts to detect him or her are made at disadvantage while that roll is in effect. Or, maybe it means he or she moves a little faster than half speed; or anything else that might fit the situation he or she is in.
If a natural 20 isn't auto-success, you shouldn't even let the player make the roll, just say they can't do that thing,
I see this point often, and I disagree so much with it. Degrees of failure can be important, whether it's from a narrative point of view, or gaming point of view.
A player attemps to lockpick an impossible lock, rolls a nat20, and fail. You could describe it as him putting all of his knowledge to the task, but the lock still resists beyond all common sense. This informs the player that something is wrong here, this shouldn't happen. The player, and the character, know that the lock should have broken. And the description doesn't make the player feel bad, because the description of the action makes him shine anyway.
Maybe the party has befriended the BBEG, without knowing it's the BBEG, and they're trying to persuade him to do something. The roll might determine the NPC's reaction to the persuasion attempt, even though they can't be convinced to act against their own interests.
Maybe they're using survival to forage for food, but the only possible result would be noting the total absence of edible foods, which isn't normal.
My point being: sometimes the players want to roll for something, but are actually rolling for information instead, even though they don't know it. A failure would just be a regular failure, but a "success" here would actually also mean failure, but also a clue as to why their attempt failed. And if something is impossible, there's definitely a reason why.
Even if someone says "I want to use my athletics to jump TO THE MOON", well, let them roll. If they roll very low, it can give a comical moment that they're in on, and if they roll high, it can mean that the drunken guy who said something stupid actually pulled off an impressive jump, even if they didn't make it to the moon.
I figure when I say auto success on a 20 regardless some might come on there and think I would just give them the solution. ClementP covered the topic well with the examples.
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ey guys quick question,
if a rogue and barbarian are trying to stealth,
that the rogue gets a natural 19 for 27 and the barbarian a natural 20 for 21,
who has the best stealth value at that moment?
so basically what's the value of a natural 20?
thanks for your time
a natural 20 only counts as an auto-succeed in the case of a hit. Many house-rule that a natural 20 succeeds on anything, but even so, the rogue still has a higher stealth value.
RAW there is no such thing as a critical success or a critical failure. If the DC is 25 and the barbarian gets a 21 with a natural 20, he still loses the skill check. There is only a critical hit and a critical miss. But, many rule different levels of success anyway (on a DC25 investigation check, a 15 will give some information, a 20 more, a 25 the whole information) and many rule a bonus on a natural 20 on a skill check.
To preserve the boons and cons of the classes, I usually decide not every class is able to perform an ability check in every situation. If the group wants to track steps through the wilderness, I don't let everyone roll. If the group has a ranger I let him make the check for the whole group. If the whole group wants to sneak, I usually let the whole group roll and either decide that more than half the group has to succeed - or - if it is really difficult - everyone needs to succeed.
If someone however wants to do something unrelated to a special class (he wants to jump over a lava pit i.e.) and rolls a 20 on an athletics check, I give him a small boon (like landing perfectly on both feet, not slowing down his run, giving him +5ft jump+run distance or so) to feel epic for that roll.
Either way, RAW the rogue will sneak better with a 27 than a barbarian with a natural 20 and 21 total and because I would not want to steal the class prestige from the rogue, I wouldn't let the barbarian sneak better.
Edit: Few minutes too late ;)
ok thank you both for your answers, that clarifies a lot
Just to throw an idea into the ring:
If you still want natural 20s to mean something, you can homebrew it so that it gives another kind of advantage. This barbarian might not be any more stealthy than a 21, but maybe the natural 20 means any attempts to detect him or her are made at disadvantage while that roll is in effect. Or, maybe it means he or she moves a little faster than half speed; or anything else that might fit the situation he or she is in.
Natural 1/20 only has effects on attack rolls and death saving throws. In any other situation, you just do the math and compare the numbers.
Ah. I just give natural 20s auto success regardless beyond the crit rule. Its not like natural 20s hit that often.
If a natural 20 isn't auto-success, you shouldn't even let the player make the roll, just say they can't do that thing,
I see this point often, and I disagree so much with it. Degrees of failure can be important, whether it's from a narrative point of view, or gaming point of view.
A player attemps to lockpick an impossible lock, rolls a nat20, and fail. You could describe it as him putting all of his knowledge to the task, but the lock still resists beyond all common sense. This informs the player that something is wrong here, this shouldn't happen. The player, and the character, know that the lock should have broken. And the description doesn't make the player feel bad, because the description of the action makes him shine anyway.
Maybe the party has befriended the BBEG, without knowing it's the BBEG, and they're trying to persuade him to do something. The roll might determine the NPC's reaction to the persuasion attempt, even though they can't be convinced to act against their own interests.
Maybe they're using survival to forage for food, but the only possible result would be noting the total absence of edible foods, which isn't normal.
My point being: sometimes the players want to roll for something, but are actually rolling for information instead, even though they don't know it. A failure would just be a regular failure, but a "success" here would actually also mean failure, but also a clue as to why their attempt failed. And if something is impossible, there's definitely a reason why.
Even if someone says "I want to use my athletics to jump TO THE MOON", well, let them roll. If they roll very low, it can give a comical moment that they're in on, and if they roll high, it can mean that the drunken guy who said something stupid actually pulled off an impressive jump, even if they didn't make it to the moon.
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I figure when I say auto success on a 20 regardless some might come on there and think I would just give them the solution. ClementP covered the topic well with the examples.