Hi. How are you? I'm doing my first shot at DMing since AD&D in 1990-something and could use a little informed advice:
5 level 3 players, 1 missing, they managed to free the girl, killing the hellion beasts disguised as merchants, in doing so they enraged the god child who turned the town against them for one night. The paladin convinced them not to kill their way through town, but at the last they had to fight their way to the gate through the town guard, with the rest of the town closing in on them. The soldier fell at the last moment, and the shop we play in called time just as the gates swung open. So I have a week to decide what to do
Now, what was supposed to happen was they would find the paladin's magical weapon and some healing potions when they looted the merchants house, but a 5 on the dice and a distracted player not offering assistance meant the items were not found.
1 round of combat left to escape with the town closing in, the soldier is down. The paladin, filled with remorse for killing the innocent guards, intends to heal his friend and go down in a blaze of glory.
I have couple of missing characters I could parachute in to save the day, should I do that, or let the paladin die? I feel it's a little unfair on this guy to die, but the story works both ways. We have not had a character death yet.
Ask the player who is playing the Paladin if he wants his PC to live or die. If he wants his PC to live, “kill” the Paladin by knocking him down to 0 HP and have him wake up 8 hours later in the town jail with 1 HP. And then let the rest of the PCs figure out how to rescue him. Do they stage a break out? Do they pay the judge a bribe to release him? Do they pay a town elder to defend him at his trial? Or does the town strike a deal with them in exchange for his freedom? The last one is only possible if the town guard made his death saving throws and survived of course with the, “I didn’t kill him” defense.
Or another option. Have the howling mob that is pursuing them “magically” be 2 rounds farther away, giving the party time for the Paladin to lay hands on the soldier and then retreat with the rest of the party.
Interesting read. Sounds like a fun game to the most part. I my personal opinion is that the last minute hero saving the day can sometimes undermine decisions made by the party. Like the game should be fun and dramatic. If a mistake was made (for example not paying attention and at least offering some assistance) you should play through and see what happens. If a character is prepared to die and the player is okay with that let it happen. If the players are complaining about how unfair it was or you feel is was a mistake on your part then a little help to save them might be fine too. But player deaths really make the world feel real and that there are consequences. Some people will get angry but that's natural. Take a break, give them a half an hour and talk to them if you need to. Explain that the game isn't over. It's just the start of a new characters story.
That's my 2 cents anyway. Sorry if it didn't make much sense. ^^"
How powerful is the god-child? Could he just freeze everyone, including the paladin? Could he tell the dead guys to get up, and raise dead on them? Could he wish the players away to some brutal unforgiving environment?
I'd hate to wipe a party over one dice roll, especially if they have a paladin who actually sounds like he acts like a paladin. Those are rare.
All that said, if the paladin wants a blaze of glory, you can always give it to him. Just make sure it counts for something.
The only thing that seemed "wrong" to me was calling for a die roll and relying on only player memory. The PCs are not only the Player's avatars in your game, but the GUI of the game. As such they, the player CHARACTERS know things that the PLAYERS do not. There is nothing meta or unseemly with simply telling the player as the GM that there is something his character would notice or know about simply because of what they represent in the world.
Sorry, seems I wasn't clear. The issue with the other player was that they had planned to help the paladin investigate the house after combat, but they became distracted and ended up with their character in the wrong place to assist with the investigation, the paladin therefore had to do the investigation alone, and the low dice roll left me with little options, I did indicate that some things had been missed, but they failed to take the opportunity to investigate further. Thanks for your response though.
Thanks for posting a response, you were correct, I have discussed the issue with the player, after considering some of the options posted below, and we have come to an accommodation, we are both happy with both outcomes, whichever should come to be, and it looks like the dice will decide. Thanks again
I understand you and the player have come to an agreement about what to do, and that is good. But, (yes there is always a BUT!) learning when and how to use dice as a DM is a vital skill. Even though this is a "game", granting dice the ultimate authority for action resolution in gaming is rarely considered a good idea. Mr. Gygax himself is credited with saying that to a DM the only good thing about dice was the sound they make...or something to that effect. My advice going forward is to never put a skill check/logic gate in front of a required event to progress the story. If the character needs those potions, he notices them. If the party needs the information, the right words reach the right ears. If the Red Dragon wants to eat them...then roll dice.
I understand you and the player have come to an agreement about what to do, and that is good. But, (yes there is always a BUT!) learning when and how to use dice as a DM is a vital skill. Even though this is a "game", granting dice the ultimate authority for action resolution in gaming is rarely considered a good idea. Mr. Gygax himself is credited with saying that to a DM the only good thing about dice was the sound they make...or something to that effect. My advice going forward is to never put a skill check/logic gate in front of a required event to progress the story. If the character needs those potions, he notices them. If the party needs the information, the right words reach the right ears. If the Red Dragon wants to eat them...then roll dice.
-Hawk
Please be careful about telling people how you think they should play. That is not your decision. You can suggest a way based on your personal experience and preferences but remember it is only a suggestion. Insinuating that other people doing something differently to you is them not knowing how to use dice is not the best way to go about things.
Life doesn't always work the best way: just because you need something doesn't mean you find it. Just because a character was low health doesn't mean they automatically find healing potions. Some people don't like deus ex machina's and like the dice rolls to determine outcomes so it isn't a DM just giving you what you need. Sometimes failing to find that crucial healing potion can result in greater tension and drama which can be much tastier than just "nah don't roll you just find it".
If you want to assist them without just giving them things there's always a situational "take 10" approach, called Passives in this incarnation of the game. If a roll of 10 on the dice plus your mods would find it then you can forgo the roll. This is in the books and a good way for a DM to determine if they find something important. The way I do it is I have them roll but secretly consider the Take 10 / Passive and go with whatever is higher. This is usual for things that are "important" find but useful for having higher DCs for "more" of something. Perhaps the take 10 / passive approach would get them one healing potion but rolling on higher results might get another one or two on top. Or maybe the passive is the DC to find the important magic longsword , but the higher rolls could get them the hidden magic shield too...
There are multiple ways to approach it, and all are valid. I would hate the circumstances where I just so happen to find everything important just because it's important. It's a real immersion-breaker for me and frankly boring in my opinion.
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Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Actually, I was giving the poster advice based not only on what is written in this particular edition of Dungeons and Dragons, but also advice that has become increasingly more popular in RPG circles.
"Remember that dice don’t run your game — you do. Dice are like rules. They’re tools to help keep the action moving. At any time, you can decide that a player’s action is automatically successful. You can also grant the player advantage on any ability check, reducing the chance of a bad die roll foiling the character’s plans. By the same token, a bad plan or unfortunate circumstances can transform the easiest task into an impossibility, or at least impose disadvantage."
That is a quote from the DMG in the Middle Path section of how to use dice.
Also since this particular DM is as rusty as a goblin sword, it makes perfect sense to advise loosening up the grip of dice tyranny when the story would be best served by narrative means.
Such as, an option would have been to just rule that with a low investigation check the paladin found all the items, but it took 20 minutes instead of 5.
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Hi. How are you? I'm doing my first shot at DMing since AD&D in 1990-something and could use a little informed advice:
5 level 3 players, 1 missing, they managed to free the girl, killing the hellion beasts disguised as merchants, in doing so they enraged the god child who turned the town against them for one night. The paladin convinced them not to kill their way through town, but at the last they had to fight their way to the gate through the town guard, with the rest of the town closing in on them. The soldier fell at the last moment, and the shop we play in called time just as the gates swung open. So I have a week to decide what to do
Now, what was supposed to happen was they would find the paladin's magical weapon and some healing potions when they looted the merchants house, but a 5 on the dice and a distracted player not offering assistance meant the items were not found.
1 round of combat left to escape with the town closing in, the soldier is down. The paladin, filled with remorse for killing the innocent guards, intends to heal his friend and go down in a blaze of glory.
I have couple of missing characters I could parachute in to save the day, should I do that, or let the paladin die? I feel it's a little unfair on this guy to die, but the story works both ways. We have not had a character death yet.
I would welcome any thoughts or advice.
Thanks
J
Ask the player who is playing the Paladin if he wants his PC to live or die. If he wants his PC to live, “kill” the Paladin by knocking him down to 0 HP and have him wake up 8 hours later in the town jail with 1 HP. And then let the rest of the PCs figure out how to rescue him. Do they stage a break out? Do they pay the judge a bribe to release him? Do they pay a town elder to defend him at his trial? Or does the town strike a deal with them in exchange for his freedom? The last one is only possible if the town guard made his death saving throws and survived of course with the, “I didn’t kill him” defense.
Or another option. Have the howling mob that is pursuing them “magically” be 2 rounds farther away, giving the party time for the Paladin to lay hands on the soldier and then retreat with the rest of the party.
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Interesting read. Sounds like a fun game to the most part. I my personal opinion is that the last minute hero saving the day can sometimes undermine decisions made by the party. Like the game should be fun and dramatic. If a mistake was made (for example not paying attention and at least offering some assistance) you should play through and see what happens. If a character is prepared to die and the player is okay with that let it happen. If the players are complaining about how unfair it was or you feel is was a mistake on your part then a little help to save them might be fine too. But player deaths really make the world feel real and that there are consequences. Some people will get angry but that's natural. Take a break, give them a half an hour and talk to them if you need to. Explain that the game isn't over. It's just the start of a new characters story.
That's my 2 cents anyway. Sorry if it didn't make much sense. ^^"
How powerful is the god-child? Could he just freeze everyone, including the paladin? Could he tell the dead guys to get up, and raise dead on them? Could he wish the players away to some brutal unforgiving environment?
I'd hate to wipe a party over one dice roll, especially if they have a paladin who actually sounds like he acts like a paladin. Those are rare.
All that said, if the paladin wants a blaze of glory, you can always give it to him. Just make sure it counts for something.
The only thing that seemed "wrong" to me was calling for a die roll and relying on only player memory. The PCs are not only the Player's avatars in your game, but the GUI of the game. As such they, the player CHARACTERS know things that the PLAYERS do not. There is nothing meta or unseemly with simply telling the player as the GM that there is something his character would notice or know about simply because of what they represent in the world.
Sorry, seems I wasn't clear. The issue with the other player was that they had planned to help the paladin investigate the house after combat, but they became distracted and ended up with their character in the wrong place to assist with the investigation, the paladin therefore had to do the investigation alone, and the low dice roll left me with little options, I did indicate that some things had been missed, but they failed to take the opportunity to investigate further. Thanks for your response though.
Thanks for this, it was helpful.
Thanks for posting a response, you were correct, I have discussed the issue with the player, after considering some of the options posted below, and we have come to an accommodation, we are both happy with both outcomes, whichever should come to be, and it looks like the dice will decide. Thanks again
I understand you and the player have come to an agreement about what to do, and that is good. But, (yes there is always a BUT!) learning when and how to use dice as a DM is a vital skill. Even though this is a "game", granting dice the ultimate authority for action resolution in gaming is rarely considered a good idea. Mr. Gygax himself is credited with saying that to a DM the only good thing about dice was the sound they make...or something to that effect. My advice going forward is to never put a skill check/logic gate in front of a required event to progress the story. If the character needs those potions, he notices them. If the party needs the information, the right words reach the right ears. If the Red Dragon wants to eat them...then roll dice.
-Hawk
Good advice, thanks. I'll keep it in mind.
Please be careful about telling people how you think they should play. That is not your decision. You can suggest a way based on your personal experience and preferences but remember it is only a suggestion. Insinuating that other people doing something differently to you is them not knowing how to use dice is not the best way to go about things.
Life doesn't always work the best way: just because you need something doesn't mean you find it. Just because a character was low health doesn't mean they automatically find healing potions. Some people don't like deus ex machina's and like the dice rolls to determine outcomes so it isn't a DM just giving you what you need. Sometimes failing to find that crucial healing potion can result in greater tension and drama which can be much tastier than just "nah don't roll you just find it".
If you want to assist them without just giving them things there's always a situational "take 10" approach, called Passives in this incarnation of the game. If a roll of 10 on the dice plus your mods would find it then you can forgo the roll. This is in the books and a good way for a DM to determine if they find something important. The way I do it is I have them roll but secretly consider the Take 10 / Passive and go with whatever is higher. This is usual for things that are "important" find but useful for having higher DCs for "more" of something. Perhaps the take 10 / passive approach would get them one healing potion but rolling on higher results might get another one or two on top. Or maybe the passive is the DC to find the important magic longsword , but the higher rolls could get them the hidden magic shield too...
There are multiple ways to approach it, and all are valid. I would hate the circumstances where I just so happen to find everything important just because it's important. It's a real immersion-breaker for me and frankly boring in my opinion.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Actually, I was giving the poster advice based not only on what is written in this particular edition of Dungeons and Dragons, but also advice that has become increasingly more popular in RPG circles.
"Remember that dice don’t run your game — you do. Dice are like rules. They’re tools to help keep the action moving. At any time, you can decide that a player’s action is automatically successful. You can also grant the player advantage on any ability check, reducing the chance of a bad die roll foiling the character’s plans. By the same token, a bad plan or unfortunate circumstances can transform the easiest task into an impossibility, or at least impose disadvantage."
That is a quote from the DMG in the Middle Path section of how to use dice.
Also since this particular DM is as rusty as a goblin sword, it makes perfect sense to advise loosening up the grip of dice tyranny when the story would be best served by narrative means.
Such as, an option would have been to just rule that with a low investigation check the paladin found all the items, but it took 20 minutes instead of 5.