I'm running a one-shot and using Fiends. I tested it with characters of the same class the players are using (lvl 20). It seemed to me that the deciding factor on whether you lived or died was whether you were prepared for Fiends or not. When prepared you can do okay, when not, you get destroyed in a battle that seems hopeless.
Without watering down the encounter, how much should I tell the players?
(I've also thought of dropping a cache of appropriate magic items.)
I expect to get t-boned with something I didn't think of, so let me have it.
At Level 20 Characters should be 1 step down from a God so there should be very little that you should have to warn them about. Unless you have greatly overpowered your enemies. Not to mention the combined total creativity of your party and their ability to act in ways you havn't thought of will have huge effects on what you have planned. It may be a one shot but you will never know the power of the murder hobo's untill there is literaly no tomorrow.
Firstly, at level 20 you can expect them to pull out damn near any combo. Then, factor in that this is a one-shot and not a campaign, therefore no consequence, and you can expect spells like wish to be whipped out as if there's no tomorrow (which there isn't, because it's a one-shot).
I will advise that level 20 can be a challenge for one shots because of their ability to pull shenanigans, but that's by no means a reason not to do it!
Regarding whether you prep the players, the questions for me would come down to:
1: What have you given them to prepare for it? Is there a brief "why you're here" for them to work to, which you could tailor with subtle clues? EG (and this is not so subtle), "You are a part of an organisation investigating fiends and demons, and you're one of the cleanup crew for when it goes wrong". Maybe give out some prompts which can give them something to build off of which guides them towards the conclusion - "The city of Heilanfrun (locally known as "Hell on Faerun" is built on a structural weakness in the border to Avernus, which has led to huge potential for magical prowess, but also occasional devilish incursions.". Flesh it out as you see fit, but you can give some lore that says "chances are, there be fiends" and the players can work it out for themselves. Add in some red herrings, such as an evil wizard caste who've been infected by the evil seeping up, and a slum filled with criminal underworlds of warlocks who are in pacts to devils that have been brought through and slipped the net of the wizards to become patron mob-bosses (dang, I am so adding this to my world!) so that it gives the overall theme without any outright telling.
If you outright say "there be fiends", then you'll get a party of paladins who can turn your entire encounter and smite the bejeesus out of them, and which you will defeat by simply staying at range.
Level 20 as mentioned above do not need any forewarning. Just the fact the players are creating a 20 level for a one shot should be enough of a warning.
Are the players experienced? New players at level 20 could very well end up overwhelmed by their options and make poor choices. Or even players who’ve really only played in T1 and 2, might have problems understanding high level spells.
Also, I might if not warn them about fiends, but when the fight starts, I might tell them things like, these creatures are resistant to X and immune to Y — but only if it’s something that their characters would know. Like if this is the climactic battle of a war they’ve been fighting since level 1, they’d probably have a handle on that kind of info.
If an experienced player is creating a 20th level character, they'll come equipped for common high level hazards like fiends. Inexperienced players may struggle with the sheer quantity of nonsense at high levels, though the same goes for inexperienced DMs, it's probably more likely that you'll struggle to challenge the PCs than that the PCs will struggle with the monsters.
Cool. All of the info and advice above is good. I'd add the following:
One option is tell them it's a fiend-focused one-shot and then reduce the PC levels from 20 to something else, e.g., 14-17.
Another option is to keep the PC levels at 20 and explicitly tell them to not build a PC that is a specialist in any way. The last one-shot I played, I built a PC that was a specialist (e.g., using feats, etc.) for combating magic/spells. But the one-shot ended up having very little enemies with high-level/dangerous spellcasting abilities, just lots of very high CR monsters (including a terrasque). Yes, I died lol.
Cool. All of the info and advice above is good. I'd add the following:
One option is tell them it's a fiend-focused one-shot and then reduce the PC levels from 20 to something else, e.g., 14-17.
Another option is to keep the PC levels at 20 and explicitly tell them to not build a PC that is a specialist in any way. The last one-shot I played, I built a PC that was a specialist (e.g., using feats, etc.) for combating magic/spells. But the one-shot ended up having very little enemies with high-level/dangerous spellcasting abilities, just lots of very high CR monsters (including a terrasque). Yes, I died lol.
Have the characters immediately go through a door that is a portal to where you want them to be, but it strips ~10 levels and all magic from items excluding rings and liquids. If someone multiclass, drop one class to 1, then if there are more levels to drop go to another class, etc. To leave they enter another portal, and are back up to level 20.
That will create a weird dynamic and "punish" M/C. The have fun...
I'm running a one-shot and using Fiends. I tested it with characters of the same class the players are using (lvl 20). It seemed to me that the deciding factor on whether you lived or died was whether you were prepared for Fiends or not. When prepared you can do okay, when not, you get destroyed in a battle that seems hopeless.
Without watering down the encounter, how much should I tell the players?
(I've also thought of dropping a cache of appropriate magic items.)
I expect to get t-boned with something I didn't think of, so let me have it.
A level 20 one shot shouldn't deserve much warning, considering it's a single session at the highest possible level power-wise with no tomorrow.
Unless it's advertised as more leaning on social or exploration, players should expect combat, in which high danger should be expected. Cakewalk to me would be underdelivering and a TPK a possibility.
If anything, it should be challenging, nontheless and players should readily know that. But if you play with strangers, you could offer some warning as friendly reminder just in case.
If players are friends you know well, it should need little to say but what is contained in your adventure blurb or preview. #allhellbrokeloose
That is more than double the PC's recommended XP for hard. I think that would probably TPK the party, no questions asked. Unless they get incredibly creative with their spells, it's gonna go badly.
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He doesn't have much besides the skin on his bones. Me: I'll take the skin on his bones, then.
"You see a gigantic, monstrous praying mantis burst from out of the ground. It sprays a stream of acid from it's mouth at one soldier, dissolving him instantly, then it turns and chomps another soldier in half with it's- "
They're also preparing well. A paladin that will probably wink out a fiend or two, a Barb with 365 hp, a wizard with all the right spells, including resurrection & true polymorph. Wish of course. And then a boon to dump temp HP all around.
Yup, there is a reason almost no one plays at level 20, and as a DM you should never allow players unlimited selection of magic items.
Well, a campaign that got there organically has probably worked out how to handle all the nonsense, but most campaigns don't last that long. I note that 2024 has nerfed the horn of valhalla -- it used to range from 2d4+2 to 5d4+5 berserkers (depending on horn type), now it's just 2-5 (depending on horn type).
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I'm running a one-shot and using Fiends. I tested it with characters of the same class the players are using (lvl 20). It seemed to me that the deciding factor on whether you lived or died was whether you were prepared for Fiends or not. When prepared you can do okay, when not, you get destroyed in a battle that seems hopeless.
Without watering down the encounter, how much should I tell the players?
(I've also thought of dropping a cache of appropriate magic items.)
I expect to get t-boned with something I didn't think of, so let me have it.
Player | DM | Creator
At Level 20 Characters should be 1 step down from a God so there should be very little that you should have to warn them about. Unless you have greatly overpowered your enemies. Not to mention the combined total creativity of your party and their ability to act in ways you havn't thought of will have huge effects on what you have planned. It may be a one shot but you will never know the power of the murder hobo's untill there is literaly no tomorrow.
Just an opinion
I agree that their creativity will take me by surprise. Playtesting on your own lacks that entirely.
Player | DM | Creator
Firstly, at level 20 you can expect them to pull out damn near any combo. Then, factor in that this is a one-shot and not a campaign, therefore no consequence, and you can expect spells like wish to be whipped out as if there's no tomorrow (which there isn't, because it's a one-shot).
I will advise that level 20 can be a challenge for one shots because of their ability to pull shenanigans, but that's by no means a reason not to do it!
Regarding whether you prep the players, the questions for me would come down to:
1: What have you given them to prepare for it? Is there a brief "why you're here" for them to work to, which you could tailor with subtle clues? EG (and this is not so subtle), "You are a part of an organisation investigating fiends and demons, and you're one of the cleanup crew for when it goes wrong". Maybe give out some prompts which can give them something to build off of which guides them towards the conclusion - "The city of Heilanfrun (locally known as "Hell on Faerun" is built on a structural weakness in the border to Avernus, which has led to huge potential for magical prowess, but also occasional devilish incursions.". Flesh it out as you see fit, but you can give some lore that says "chances are, there be fiends" and the players can work it out for themselves. Add in some red herrings, such as an evil wizard caste who've been infected by the evil seeping up, and a slum filled with criminal underworlds of warlocks who are in pacts to devils that have been brought through and slipped the net of the wizards to become patron mob-bosses (dang, I am so adding this to my world!) so that it gives the overall theme without any outright telling.
If you outright say "there be fiends", then you'll get a party of paladins who can turn your entire encounter and smite the bejeesus out of them, and which you will defeat by simply staying at range.
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Level 20 as mentioned above do not need any forewarning. Just the fact the players are creating a 20 level for a one shot should be enough of a warning.
I've told them repeatedly that I'm going to try to kill their characters. lol. I guess that's sort of a warning.
Player | DM | Creator
Are the players experienced? New players at level 20 could very well end up overwhelmed by their options and make poor choices. Or even players who’ve really only played in T1 and 2, might have problems understanding high level spells.
Also, I might if not warn them about fiends, but when the fight starts, I might tell them things like, these creatures are resistant to X and immune to Y — but only if it’s something that their characters would know. Like if this is the climactic battle of a war they’ve been fighting since level 1, they’d probably have a handle on that kind of info.
If an experienced player is creating a 20th level character, they'll come equipped for common high level hazards like fiends. Inexperienced players may struggle with the sheer quantity of nonsense at high levels, though the same goes for inexperienced DMs, it's probably more likely that you'll struggle to challenge the PCs than that the PCs will struggle with the monsters.
Cool. All of the info and advice above is good. I'd add the following:
One option is tell them it's a fiend-focused one-shot and then reduce the PC levels from 20 to something else, e.g., 14-17.
Another option is to keep the PC levels at 20 and explicitly tell them to not build a PC that is a specialist in any way. The last one-shot I played, I built a PC that was a specialist (e.g., using feats, etc.) for combating magic/spells. But the one-shot ended up having very little enemies with high-level/dangerous spellcasting abilities, just lots of very high CR monsters (including a terrasque). Yes, I died lol.
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s, took a 40 year hiatus, re-started with 3.5 and 5e in 2023
Have the characters immediately go through a door that is a portal to where you want them to be, but it strips ~10 levels and all magic from items excluding rings and liquids. If someone multiclass, drop one class to 1, then if there are more levels to drop go to another class, etc. To leave they enter another portal, and are back up to level 20.
That will create a weird dynamic and "punish" M/C. The have fun...
A level 20 one shot shouldn't deserve much warning, considering it's a single session at the highest possible level power-wise with no tomorrow.
Unless it's advertised as more leaning on social or exploration, players should expect combat, in which high danger should be expected. Cakewalk to me would be underdelivering and a TPK a possibility.
If anything, it should be challenging, nontheless and players should readily know that. But if you play with strangers, you could offer some warning as friendly reminder just in case.
If players are friends you know well, it should need little to say but what is contained in your adventure blurb or preview. #allhellbrokeloose
4 lvl 20 PCs versus
Renders and Slaad are there so you can't do a 1 size fits all spell to get rid of fiends or the like. I've considered adding an extra Slaad.
The playtest beat the PCs (that I was running) into a hopeless smackdown, but I have faith the players will bring a better game.
Player | DM | Creator
That is more than double the PC's recommended XP for hard. I think that would probably TPK the party, no questions asked. Unless they get incredibly creative with their spells, it's gonna go badly.
He doesn't have much besides the skin on his bones. Me: I'll take the skin on his bones, then.
"You see a gigantic, monstrous praying mantis burst from out of the ground. It sprays a stream of acid from it's mouth at one soldier, dissolving him instantly, then it turns and chomps another soldier in half with it's- "
"When are we gonna take a snack break?"
They've wiped out every "over the top" set up I've ever given them. They routinely take on 1.5 recommended.
Player | DM | Creator
They're also preparing well. A paladin that will probably wink out a fiend or two, a Barb with 365 hp, a wizard with all the right spells, including resurrection & true polymorph. Wish of course. And then a boon to dump temp HP all around.
Player | DM | Creator
So we played.
Even with +8 and +11, my monsters could hardly hit them. I cast fireball a couple of times a round and barely made a dent.
Also, don't allow players to use a horn of Valhala. There's a reason DMs ban it, and now I know too.
At the time that Roll 20 crashed, the PCs and all but one monster were virtually unscratched. Most had no damage at all.
Player | DM | Creator
"That will create a weird dynamic and "punish" M/C."
Why punish any player who follows the rules?
Just don't warn them. Sit back, and watch as it unfolds. (I'm tempted to try that idea on level one players, but I'm not sure)
(I stole this quote off the internet)
I'm just your average troll
Yup, there is a reason almost no one plays at level 20, and as a DM you should never allow players unlimited selection of magic items.
Well, a campaign that got there organically has probably worked out how to handle all the nonsense, but most campaigns don't last that long. I note that 2024 has nerfed the horn of valhalla -- it used to range from 2d4+2 to 5d4+5 berserkers (depending on horn type), now it's just 2-5 (depending on horn type).