Hello, I’ve recently been given the honor of DMing a campaign for my local group of players. This will be my first time DMing, and I’ve chosen Princes of the Apocalypse as the campaign we will be running.
I had this idea of during the first session (after characters are created) I give my players a character sheet of themselves at a higher level (maybe 10-18?) and fairly powerful. At the start of the scene they are halfway/nearly dead, fighting alongside a Wizard against all the Princes with their weapons. Basically they WILL lose the fight and the Wizard will cast Wish to send them back in time (and to level one) to “try again” to prevent the apocalypse. They will lose all their memory of everything that happened within the first 24 hours of being sent back. I might introduce a Deja Vu skill check/roll to let them try to “remember” things they may have experienced before.
Is this whole idea too ridiculous or do you guys think it seems cool/it can work?
As someone running a group through PotA right now, I'd say this idea can be iffy due simply because there are a lot of things that can happen in the meantime. I've had 3 character deaths and 1 character get petrified. They're level 7. There is also a lot of sandbox elements in that the party could just wander into areas they're underleveled for. Now, you could adjust the encounters if you want to. But that means there are A LOT of dungeons/areas you have to adjust and change, possibly on the fly.
Noob DM here also, so take any advice with a pinch of salt.
It sounds like an interesting idea, but could be a little confusing. Also the wizard fighting alongside them would presumably be an NPC, so maybe you are robbing the players of some agency? You're putting them into a situation where they are butchered and then bailed out by an NPC, their very first session is 1) totally redundant to progress, and 2) telling them that they are completely at your whim and giving the impression of railroad campaign. You may find yourself missing a player or two in session 2.
My suspicion is that this is one of those things that work awesome in films/books, but not so well with RPGs. Maybe some of the more experienced DMs will say otherwise, or have some advice on how you could adapt the plan to make it work. It's maybe ambitious for your very first time DMing.
Thinking further - if this is to not just be a gimmicky way to start the campaign, I think you have to flesh out this deja vu idea. There must be some sort of benefit to them having experienced this before. The players should get some sort of periodic insight that could be seen to be the difference between an encounter being a total rout and a party victory (encounters should be balanced accordingly). Kind of like an automatic Augury spell before certain major actions. They'd have to have the impression that they are making meaningfully different decisions than their doomed counterparts, otherwise they'll always be wondering if they're just heading to the same grisly end that they already witnessed. That then just becomes a different type of railroading - they'll keep changing plans until the hit a path that you've determined to be beneficial.
It sounds like a tight rope that I suspect even some experienced DMs couldn't walk. If you go ahead, I think it'll need hours upon hours of careful planning, and some superlative adaptation/improvisation skills.
If you aren't going to do all that to tie it meaningfully to the mechanics of the game as a whole, then it seems like a waste of time.
The only reason they will lose the fight so badly in the first place is because ALL FOUR Princes will have their weapons and the Devastation Orbs, they’ll learn pretty early on they can vastly change that outcome by challenging them separately.
As written the book seems to be warning them constantly about the elemental evil, this would give them a worst case scenario view
If you can make it work, it sounds great and I would love to hear about it. When done well, I love this particular trope in fantasy/scifi.
But when I put myself in the place of a player, and I feel like I could have just turned up late without missing anything. When I give of my time, I like to feel like I achieved something, even in a fictional game. Don't put me into a fight engineered for me to lose, then undo it all, and put me at square 1 having gained nothing. The players have no agency in the fight, and you'll have to rig it to be sure they have no agency, period. There can be no victory, nor even escape - because then you have 10th level characters running around having skipped the entire adventure.
If the outcome is predetermined, don't make them play it. It could be better done as a 5 minute 'theater of the mind' - describe the situation briefly, and then put them at the beginning of the game without asking them to invest any effort into a lost cause. Or give it mid-quest to one or more of the players as a fever dream premonition of what will happen if they face all four princes together. Just don't ask them to invest too much time into it.
Or even skip the setup all together, and go straight to the deja vu. They have no idea where these visions are coming from, just that they recognize themselves but in very slightly different situations/garb/equipment. As the adventure nears the end, give them the vision of them fighting all princes at once, if they've not already figured it out have someone yell "They're just too powerful together!", just before death. Include the wizard's wish as part of the final vision. Don't make it an NPC - if the party has a wizard, make that player character the last character standing, and the wish is their final act of desperation. That's the payoff - the final revelation that they've done this all before - perhaps more than once! The players will enjoy that this has slowly unveiled itself to them - perhaps they've already guessed and this is confirmation, making them feel clever. The wizard will feel epic - he'll eventually be powerful enough to create a time loop to ensure ultimate victory.
I dunno - like I said, I'm a noob too. But that's how I'd do it.
If the team has a Sorceror or Wizard I will definitely have them be the one to cast Wish, and exclude the NPC altogether. The idea was to hand them character sheets with their health and spell slots already 90% depleted. It’s definitely going to be obvious it is a narrative scene that the characters have minor interaction with. Think like... the first level in Fire Emblem Awakening.
I actually used this plot device in a long term adventure I wrote some time ago. The advice the others have given are good. In order to avoid the sense of having things taken away from them, I made mine more of a mystery. The players had no idea that's what happened. They started out just as normal. During the course of events I dropped clues. Sometimes big, sometimes small. One time telling a player going through a major he knew where the kitchen was. He looked at me and asked how he knew that and I told him he wasn't sure. He just knew.
When they figured it out, it was a lot of fun. They went, 'Wait a sec. We LOST!? **** that. We aren't losing again.' Gave new context to previous encounters etc etc. And like your idea I allowed them to 'use the force' and recall things. Even let them turn misses into hits and so on. With limitations so it didn't get crazy. :)
They didn't mind the NPC deus ex because they never actually played out the scene. And I killed off the NPC before the end which turned out to be a nice moment for the players and drive home the point there will not be any going back this time. Also solves the problem if things go bad with character deaths or changes, since they didn't know who was at the end fight. Just my 2 cents.
They didn't mind the NPC deus ex because they never actually played out the scene. And I killed off the NPC before the end which turned out to be a nice moment for the players and drive home the point there will not be any going back this time. Also solves the problem if things go bad with character deaths or changes, since they didn't know who was at the end fight. Just my 2 cents.
Maybe having the NPC get really close to the players, but keeping tight lipped ("no one should be burdened with knowledge of the future"). Then toward the end letting slip that they have been through this cycle a great many times, and with a slightly resigned voice informing them that just one decision remains untested but saying no more. Shortly thereafter in the same session, in a seemingly hopeless situation (though not the BBEG finale), NPC gets a look of grim determination on their face, and sacrifices themselves in a way that evens the odds for the party. Kind of a Gandalf "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!" moment.
Done well, that could be very entertaining. And hopefully not too "NPC ex machina", since they are leveling the playing field, and not just winning on behalf of the players.
Thanks for the advice. I am just going to narratively describe the grim scene of the characters not being powerful enough to win the fight and avoid the apocalypse.
IF the team has a Wizard or Sorcerer, I will have them cast the wish spell. If not, I will have the NPC Wizard’s dead body be near them as they transported back and their memories begin to fade. If they touch the body it will turn to ash, leaving behind some trinket only the Wizard would recognize (if they meet him again in their journey). The new version of the NPC will have no idea about anything, and if they’ve discovered enough through Deja Vu, they can try to convince him of the role he played.
Yeah, my big worry about doing this is that you can't really plan for what the players do. Setting up a fight where the players are required to lose, in a particular way, could easily turn into unfun railroading.
What if the players, somehow against all odds, roll some crits and win? (Or come up with a super clever solution?) Are you going to take away their win or fudge dice against them? That would feel terrible for the players.
What if the wizard dies? What if the players realize they're screwed and, instead of fighting, escape? What if... something else? Players, especially high level spellcasters, can make a mockery of DM planning.
I think as a backstory, this is great, and makes for a great setup. Just don't make the players play through the hopeless fight. (If you absolutely must have them play through the hopeless fight, make it absolutely clear from the beginning that they're playing through the last moments of a previous timeline, and aren't trying to win, they just get a round or two to gather information about their future adversaries.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hello, I’ve recently been given the honor of DMing a campaign for my local group of players. This will be my first time DMing, and I’ve chosen Princes of the Apocalypse as the campaign we will be running.
I had this idea of during the first session (after characters are created) I give my players a character sheet of themselves at a higher level (maybe 10-18?) and fairly powerful. At the start of the scene they are halfway/nearly dead, fighting alongside a Wizard against all the Princes with their weapons. Basically they WILL lose the fight and the Wizard will cast Wish to send them back in time (and to level one) to “try again” to prevent the apocalypse. They will lose all their memory of everything that happened within the first 24 hours of being sent back. I might introduce a Deja Vu skill check/roll to let them try to “remember” things they may have experienced before.
Is this whole idea too ridiculous or do you guys think it seems cool/it can work?
As someone running a group through PotA right now, I'd say this idea can be iffy due simply because there are a lot of things that can happen in the meantime. I've had 3 character deaths and 1 character get petrified. They're level 7. There is also a lot of sandbox elements in that the party could just wander into areas they're underleveled for. Now, you could adjust the encounters if you want to. But that means there are A LOT of dungeons/areas you have to adjust and change, possibly on the fly.
Noob DM here also, so take any advice with a pinch of salt.
It sounds like an interesting idea, but could be a little confusing. Also the wizard fighting alongside them would presumably be an NPC, so maybe you are robbing the players of some agency? You're putting them into a situation where they are butchered and then bailed out by an NPC, their very first session is 1) totally redundant to progress, and 2) telling them that they are completely at your whim and giving the impression of railroad campaign. You may find yourself missing a player or two in session 2.
My suspicion is that this is one of those things that work awesome in films/books, but not so well with RPGs. Maybe some of the more experienced DMs will say otherwise, or have some advice on how you could adapt the plan to make it work. It's maybe ambitious for your very first time DMing.
Thinking further - if this is to not just be a gimmicky way to start the campaign, I think you have to flesh out this deja vu idea. There must be some sort of benefit to them having experienced this before. The players should get some sort of periodic insight that could be seen to be the difference between an encounter being a total rout and a party victory (encounters should be balanced accordingly). Kind of like an automatic Augury spell before certain major actions. They'd have to have the impression that they are making meaningfully different decisions than their doomed counterparts, otherwise they'll always be wondering if they're just heading to the same grisly end that they already witnessed. That then just becomes a different type of railroading - they'll keep changing plans until the hit a path that you've determined to be beneficial.
It sounds like a tight rope that I suspect even some experienced DMs couldn't walk. If you go ahead, I think it'll need hours upon hours of careful planning, and some superlative adaptation/improvisation skills.
If you aren't going to do all that to tie it meaningfully to the mechanics of the game as a whole, then it seems like a waste of time.
The only reason they will lose the fight so badly in the first place is because ALL FOUR Princes will have their weapons and the Devastation Orbs, they’ll learn pretty early on they can vastly change that outcome by challenging them separately.
As written the book seems to be warning them constantly about the elemental evil, this would give them a worst case scenario view
If you can make it work, it sounds great and I would love to hear about it. When done well, I love this particular trope in fantasy/scifi.
But when I put myself in the place of a player, and I feel like I could have just turned up late without missing anything. When I give of my time, I like to feel like I achieved something, even in a fictional game. Don't put me into a fight engineered for me to lose, then undo it all, and put me at square 1 having gained nothing. The players have no agency in the fight, and you'll have to rig it to be sure they have no agency, period. There can be no victory, nor even escape - because then you have 10th level characters running around having skipped the entire adventure.
If the outcome is predetermined, don't make them play it. It could be better done as a 5 minute 'theater of the mind' - describe the situation briefly, and then put them at the beginning of the game without asking them to invest any effort into a lost cause. Or give it mid-quest to one or more of the players as a fever dream premonition of what will happen if they face all four princes together. Just don't ask them to invest too much time into it.
Or even skip the setup all together, and go straight to the deja vu. They have no idea where these visions are coming from, just that they recognize themselves but in very slightly different situations/garb/equipment. As the adventure nears the end, give them the vision of them fighting all princes at once, if they've not already figured it out have someone yell "They're just too powerful together!", just before death. Include the wizard's wish as part of the final vision. Don't make it an NPC - if the party has a wizard, make that player character the last character standing, and the wish is their final act of desperation. That's the payoff - the final revelation that they've done this all before - perhaps more than once! The players will enjoy that this has slowly unveiled itself to them - perhaps they've already guessed and this is confirmation, making them feel clever. The wizard will feel epic - he'll eventually be powerful enough to create a time loop to ensure ultimate victory.
I dunno - like I said, I'm a noob too. But that's how I'd do it.
If the team has a Sorceror or Wizard I will definitely have them be the one to cast Wish, and exclude the NPC altogether. The idea was to hand them character sheets with their health and spell slots already 90% depleted. It’s definitely going to be obvious it is a narrative scene that the characters have minor interaction with. Think like... the first level in Fire Emblem Awakening.
I actually used this plot device in a long term adventure I wrote some time ago. The advice the others have given are good. In order to avoid the sense of having things taken away from them, I made mine more of a mystery. The players had no idea that's what happened. They started out just as normal. During the course of events I dropped clues. Sometimes big, sometimes small. One time telling a player going through a major he knew where the kitchen was. He looked at me and asked how he knew that and I told him he wasn't sure. He just knew.
When they figured it out, it was a lot of fun. They went, 'Wait a sec. We LOST!? **** that. We aren't losing again.' Gave new context to previous encounters etc etc. And like your idea I allowed them to 'use the force' and recall things. Even let them turn misses into hits and so on. With limitations so it didn't get crazy. :)
They didn't mind the NPC deus ex because they never actually played out the scene. And I killed off the NPC before the end which turned out to be a nice moment for the players and drive home the point there will not be any going back this time. Also solves the problem if things go bad with character deaths or changes, since they didn't know who was at the end fight. Just my 2 cents.
Maybe having the NPC get really close to the players, but keeping tight lipped ("no one should be burdened with knowledge of the future"). Then toward the end letting slip that they have been through this cycle a great many times, and with a slightly resigned voice informing them that just one decision remains untested but saying no more. Shortly thereafter in the same session, in a seemingly hopeless situation (though not the BBEG finale), NPC gets a look of grim determination on their face, and sacrifices themselves in a way that evens the odds for the party. Kind of a Gandalf "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!" moment.
Done well, that could be very entertaining. And hopefully not too "NPC ex machina", since they are leveling the playing field, and not just winning on behalf of the players.
Thanks for the advice. I am just going to narratively describe the grim scene of the characters not being powerful enough to win the fight and avoid the apocalypse.
IF the team has a Wizard or Sorcerer, I will have them cast the wish spell. If not, I will have the NPC Wizard’s dead body be near them as they transported back and their memories begin to fade. If they touch the body it will turn to ash, leaving behind some trinket only the Wizard would recognize (if they meet him again in their journey). The new version of the NPC will have no idea about anything, and if they’ve discovered enough through Deja Vu, they can try to convince him of the role he played.
Yeah, my big worry about doing this is that you can't really plan for what the players do. Setting up a fight where the players are required to lose, in a particular way, could easily turn into unfun railroading.
What if the players, somehow against all odds, roll some crits and win? (Or come up with a super clever solution?) Are you going to take away their win or fudge dice against them? That would feel terrible for the players.
What if the wizard dies? What if the players realize they're screwed and, instead of fighting, escape? What if... something else? Players, especially high level spellcasters, can make a mockery of DM planning.
I think as a backstory, this is great, and makes for a great setup. Just don't make the players play through the hopeless fight. (If you absolutely must have them play through the hopeless fight, make it absolutely clear from the beginning that they're playing through the last moments of a previous timeline, and aren't trying to win, they just get a round or two to gather information about their future adversaries.)