I'm fairly new to DMing, I had been completely out of the game since 3.5e but was recently brought back in by a friend that had really wanted to play but was too shy to approach a group of strangers at the local game store, finally about a year ago I gave in and started a group for him. Since then I have been able to get a regular game running bi-weekly with myself as DM and 5 players at my house. My issue comes with one of my players who is causing people to not enjoy playing, she is either not paying attention, stops midway through the session because she's tired and needs to lie down or just lays her head down on the table mid game, makes her boyfriend (one of the other players) stop everything to take her home in the middle of a session, has mental breakdowns (not just gets upset but full blown crying and locking herself in the bathroom) because people at the table crunch their food or drink too loud, stops gameplay/roleplaying to tell a story about how this relates somehow to something that happened to her when she was a child, and passes the most rancid gas and laughs manically when people complain, generally just making it seem like she has no interest in playing or only wants to make sure others have no fun. I have spoken to her boyfriend and sister(two of my players and best friends) about the issue privately because I have seen how she reacts to being confronted about her behavior, and it has solved nothing. Does anyone have any advice on what to do in this situation as I feel that if I were to call her out then it would completely break down the entire group, like she would make so much drama that I honestly fear that her bf and sister would be afraid to continue playing.
Here is a mantra to live by: Surround yourself with people who care about your happiness. Ditch those who don't.
So this is a social issue, not a game issue, but this is a social game and so it's important that she respects you, and the other players. Honestly though, it sounds like she's probably playing only because her boyfriend and sister play, and doesn't want to be excluded, but doesn't really enjoy the game. Based on what you've said, it sounds like she's already been a problem so many times that I'd just say she's no longer invited to play unless she takes on board the following:
This is a game that's really important to me, and I put a lot of time into preparing it. Because of that I need everyone who's playing to enjoy the game, and I need a few things from you.
If you aren't able to commit to playing the game, and that includes being alert, awake and focused, then I can't really have you as part of the game. This would apply if we were playing basketball, going for a hike, or just going out socialising. It's one thing to nod off if you're playing after work and the game has got to 1am, but midway through the game, given how much effort and time I'm putting in to preparing the sessions, I need all the players focused.
This is my leisure time, and I don't want it being disrupted or ruined because people are crying and locking themselves in bathrooms. I can't invite people around who are going to do that on a regular basis.
I won't have people come round my house and disrespect me by doing rancid farts. Unless you have some medical reason that you can't help it, if you keep doing it I can't have you round my place. It's disgusting, not funny and disrespectful.
Do you really actually like playing? Because I feel that you don't. If you don't like playing, you don't have to and I won't feel bad.
If you allow her to continue like this it will continue to spoil your game time. You've tried going through boyfriend and sister, and nothing has happened, so going direct is the only option.
You're going to have to decide if you want to give her an opportunity to improve her behaviour, or ask her to leave. If the former, a one on one heart to heart where you listen and provide feedback (was she always such a disturbance?) and work through her more egregious bad habits. But if that isn't possible, you just have to tell her she's no longer welcome. It sounds like she'll flip, get emotional, emotionally blackmail her bf and sister to not attend - which is really on them, and not on you.
What you don't know now is how many lovely players are out there waiting for you to take time out of your schedule to prepare and run a great session of D&D. If your current group doesn't respect that, or if a player doesn't honour that and more importantly won'thonour that, it is time to move on and find your tribe.
Another way... with no confrontation, is just press pause on the game. Say you're tired, too busy, emotionally spent, bored... whatever. Let your players get back into their habits and routines, and in a couple months recast the group with old and new players. This time, don't invite her back. Her spots taken, sorry. It's far more passive aggressive and not assertive - but I can commiserate on not even wanting to engage in meaningless drama. So, yeah.
For what it is worth, it's draining to be in a toxic group. It's not going to get better without direct systemic changes from you. It can get worse. You could irrevocably lose friends if left unchecked.
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Rule for drama. Roll for memories. If there isn't a meaningful failure condition, do not roll. Ever. (Perception checks, I'm .... clunk, roll, roll, roll, stop... 14, looking at you... maybe?)
I fully agree with everything you've said here and that looks like what I'm going to have to do, honestly I'm just looking for reassurance that I should handle it in that manner. After this past Saturday I've come up with the following rules:
1. Games will be limited to 4-5 hour sessions, if coming close to the 5 hour mark and the party is close to finishing an area, the DM will let the party know and the party will decide as a group if they want to continue or just place it on pause until next session.
2. If a player is running late the game will start without that player, when the player arrives they should jump in as soon they feel comfortable.
3. If a player needs to leave early or stop playing, the game will continue but that character gets pulled from the game for the session.
4. No running 2 characters unless the story/spell allows a player to have a minion or specifically states the group controls an NPC, then it is up to the group who will control that NPC, when the NPC is assigned to a player they cannot be handed off to another player unless the original player leaves the session. Said NPC/minion will act on the controlling players initiative unless otherwise stated by story/spell rules.
5. Party need to ration rests, 2-3 short rests and one long rest per session preferably as more than that removes a lot of the challenge from the gameplay.
6. Players should not feel an obligation to show up if they have something else to do or just simply do not feel like playing. If 3 or more party members cannot make a session it will be up to the remaining party members if they want to play that week, if they do it will be up to them if they want to continue the main campaign or do a one off, if they decide they want a one off it is the DMs responsibility to set one up however they see fit.
7. Sometimes the DM has to act like an ******* for the NPC they have to play as, do not get upset if it seems like the DM is targeting you specifically with that NPC, 99% of the time they are instructed to because of the players race/class/alignment/background/previous actions.
8. If the DM cancels a session and a player still wants to play feel free to get with the other players and set up your own game, just leave the current module/story that the current DM is running alone as to not ruin the story.
9. Respect other people at the table, we have all invested time and money to play this game and have fun.
10. Remember this is all about having fun, if anyone feels that they are not having fun it is ok to let everyone else know they are not enjoying themselves and they are under no pressure to continue playing.
If laying it out this way doesn't elicit some type of improved behavior or offer an out for her to quit i'll just have to be direct.
If my math is right, the group is: your friend who got you to DM; the problem player; her sister; her boyfriend; an unnamed player; and you. My first thought is that it sounds like she has some medical issues. You haven't said anything to suggest substance abuse, and aside from that, crying jags and passing out at the table is pretty extreme. My second is that she's probably there to please her boyfriend and sister, which means you and she have something in common. Is there something you can do to work around this? Is there a couch she can lay on across the room or a chair in a dark corner where she'd be more comfortable? If you're going to keep playing with her you should find a situation you can all work with, because there's no way she's not picking up on your tension, which is only adding to her tension, which is only adding to yours....
The group consists of myself and 5 others, person in question, her bf, her sister, and two other friends. She has no medical issues that I am aware of and shes not passing out she just lays her head down a refuses to respond to anyone other than her bf. There is a couch on the other side of my basement that we play in where she will go and lay down but she complains the entire time that she really just needs to go home. The other 2 players and myself have both talked to each other thinking she has a substance problem because the behavior has just started in the past 3 months and when we asked the bf and sister they both said she does not.
The problem you're going to have here is that if you decide to boot her from the group, her sister and her boyfriend will probably not take kindly to it... This is a situation in which removing her from the group is very likely to cause the entire group to break up.
I would be 100% miserable playing with a person like this and I'd have already stopped DMing for them. I'd probably use Torq's method, of stopping gaming with them on some other excuse about time, burnout, what have you, and then I would look to start up a new group. I would get 1 or 2 new people in, and then once a group has formed, approach the 2 people not related to/dating her (the ones you mentioned talking to) and ask if they would like to join in on this group.
The sister, the BF, and the girl in question, I would not probably ever invite back. No matter how good friends I am with sister and BF, problem girl would be too much of a stressor for me. I would not want to have anything to do with her, ever -- and especially not as a DM doing all that work only to have her pull this kind of thing.
If she's got a substance problem, well, I'm sorry about that, and maybe this'll seem heartless, but as a DM, my gaming table is not the place for people to solve their personal issues.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
My dime store psychoanalysis says she’s jealous and probably has some self esteem issues. She doesn’t like there being something her boyfriend does without her, so she forces her way in and her behavior is a way to passive-aggressively force him to pay attention to her, and constantly prove his devotion to her by abandoning the game and other people in favor of her. As a side benefit, all the rest of you need to pay attention to her as well, making the entire thing about her, and boosting that low self esteem. She might also not like D&D, but there’s a larger issue with her at play. If I’m right, I doubt it’s actually fix-able until she matures. You could talk to boyfriend and sister, over email or text or something, and ask them if they know what’s going on here and if they’ve noticed it. Be candid with them that her outbursts are ruining the fun for everyone and while you want to keep them as players, she is on thin ice. Ask how upset they would be if you booted her. (And the boyfriend should totally break up with her and find someone lower maintainence)
Then have the conversation with her. She might have an outburst, but that will likely be the last time you’ll need to deal with her — rip off that band aid quickly, it will be better to be done with it one way or the other.
And also, I like your rules, but move the last 2 to the top, I’d say. Those are the bigger priority.
I would ask her, not accusingly, if she enjoys the game. Ask her to be honest, because it sounds a lot like she doesn't.
Maybe she just likes to hang out with the group and doesn't want to be left out? If so, I would tell her she doesn't have to be in the game and that she can still hang out while you play, maybe even offer to let her voice NPC's or control monsters at times, and tell her you can give her character an out (her long lost mother is alive! Now they need to go into hiding from those who pursue her) without killing them.
I'd just stress that, while she can hang with you guys, ask that she respects that the other people at the table are there to game, and while it's fine to have cross-talk at the table, don't let it dominate the gaming experience.
If they cannot abide by that last bit especially, then you just cannot play with that person.
5. Party need to ration rests, 2-3 short rests and one long rest per session preferably as more than that removes a lot of the challenge from the gameplay.
Unrelated note, but if you're allowing multiple short rests and a long rest every session, you're going to run into balance issues.
Most challenge ratings and DC's in the game are based around the players having a finite amount of character resources and class abilities. The developers calculate that, in order to present a suitable challenge to your players, you should have them face up to 8 challenges per adventuring day. A "challenge" doesn't have to be combat, they could easily be puzzles or roleplay opportunities, but there should still be multiple combats per adventuring day.
Now, given how long it takes to run your standard encounter in real time vs game time, 8 encounters in a 4-5 hour session is unrealistic, so to keep things challenging, I would recommend tracking time across sessions, so you can have multiple sessions within the same adventuring day. That way players will have to be more careful while spending their resources, and be more challenged as they deplete.
The rests are actually there to help accommodate the couple of smokers that are in the party because I don’t allow smoking in my house, I’m trying to break it down further until possibly only 1 rest is needed
FWIW, I've had groups take smoke breaks or let the dog out or whatever in the middle of fights, or riding on horseback from one place to another. In game rests needn't sync up to real time that way, though it is sometimes a convenient place to pause.
I'm fairly new to DMing, I had been completely out of the game since 3.5e but was recently brought back in by a friend that had really wanted to play but was too shy to approach a group of strangers at the local game store, finally about a year ago I gave in and started a group for him. Since then I have been able to get a regular game running bi-weekly with myself as DM and 5 players at my house. My issue comes with one of my players who is causing people to not enjoy playing, she is either not paying attention, stops midway through the session because she's tired and needs to lie down or just lays her head down on the table mid game, makes her boyfriend (one of the other players) stop everything to take her home in the middle of a session, has mental breakdowns (not just gets upset but full blown crying and locking herself in the bathroom) because people at the table crunch their food or drink too loud, stops gameplay/roleplaying to tell a story about how this relates somehow to something that happened to her when she was a child, and passes the most rancid gas and laughs manically when people complain, generally just making it seem like she has no interest in playing or only wants to make sure others have no fun. I have spoken to her boyfriend and sister(two of my players and best friends) about the issue privately because I have seen how she reacts to being confronted about her behavior, and it has solved nothing. Does anyone have any advice on what to do in this situation as I feel that if I were to call her out then it would completely break down the entire group, like she would make so much drama that I honestly fear that her bf and sister would be afraid to continue playing.
wow.once or twice l might tolerate it,but at this point l would kick her out, though l would talk the 3 of them first first.
"her" to give her a chance to change/calm down,and her bf/sister to see if they would have to leave the game if she was kicked out.
lf you are worried about them leaving,talk to them first or better yet,b4 or after a session sit all 3 of them down and talk about the problems you have and try to work out ways to solve them,and if she is not willing to be a better player,tell her that if she does not like being in the game,she can leave,but make sure you also ask the other 2 their thoughts on the matter and lf they would stay if she leaves.
tl;dr talk to them and try to work something out. if they have to leave,its sad,but as some people have said in other storys about bad players:its better to have no dnd then bad dnd.
I'm fairly new to DMing, I had been completely out of the game since 3.5e but was recently brought back in by a friend that had really wanted to play but was too shy to approach a group of strangers at the local game store, finally about a year ago I gave in and started a group for him. Since then I have been able to get a regular game running bi-weekly with myself as DM and 5 players at my house. My issue comes with one of my players who is causing people to not enjoy playing, she is either not paying attention, stops midway through the session because she's tired and needs to lie down or just lays her head down on the table mid game, makes her boyfriend (one of the other players) stop everything to take her home in the middle of a session, has mental breakdowns (not just gets upset but full blown crying and locking herself in the bathroom) because people at the table crunch their food or drink too loud, stops gameplay/roleplaying to tell a story about how this relates somehow to something that happened to her when she was a child, and passes the most rancid gas and laughs manically when people complain, generally just making it seem like she has no interest in playing or only wants to make sure others have no fun. I have spoken to her boyfriend and sister(two of my players and best friends) about the issue privately because I have seen how she reacts to being confronted about her behavior, and it has solved nothing. Does anyone have any advice on what to do in this situation as I feel that if I were to call her out then it would completely break down the entire group, like she would make so much drama that I honestly fear that her bf and sister would be afraid to continue playing.
Here is a mantra to live by: Surround yourself with people who care about your happiness. Ditch those who don't.
So this is a social issue, not a game issue, but this is a social game and so it's important that she respects you, and the other players. Honestly though, it sounds like she's probably playing only because her boyfriend and sister play, and doesn't want to be excluded, but doesn't really enjoy the game. Based on what you've said, it sounds like she's already been a problem so many times that I'd just say she's no longer invited to play unless she takes on board the following:
If you allow her to continue like this it will continue to spoil your game time. You've tried going through boyfriend and sister, and nothing has happened, so going direct is the only option.
Everyone is there to have fun, including you.
You're going to have to decide if you want to give her an opportunity to improve her behaviour, or ask her to leave. If the former, a one on one heart to heart where you listen and provide feedback (was she always such a disturbance?) and work through her more egregious bad habits. But if that isn't possible, you just have to tell her she's no longer welcome. It sounds like she'll flip, get emotional, emotionally blackmail her bf and sister to not attend - which is really on them, and not on you.
What you don't know now is how many lovely players are out there waiting for you to take time out of your schedule to prepare and run a great session of D&D. If your current group doesn't respect that, or if a player doesn't honour that and more importantly won't honour that, it is time to move on and find your tribe.
Another way... with no confrontation, is just press pause on the game. Say you're tired, too busy, emotionally spent, bored... whatever. Let your players get back into their habits and routines, and in a couple months recast the group with old and new players. This time, don't invite her back. Her spots taken, sorry. It's far more passive aggressive and not assertive - but I can commiserate on not even wanting to engage in meaningless drama. So, yeah.
For what it is worth, it's draining to be in a toxic group. It's not going to get better without direct systemic changes from you. It can get worse. You could irrevocably lose friends if left unchecked.
Rule for drama. Roll for memories.
If there isn't a meaningful failure condition, do not roll. Ever. (Perception checks, I'm .... clunk, roll, roll, roll, stop... 14, looking at you... maybe?)
I fully agree with everything you've said here and that looks like what I'm going to have to do, honestly I'm just looking for reassurance that I should handle it in that manner. After this past Saturday I've come up with the following rules:
1. Games will be limited to 4-5 hour sessions, if coming close to the 5 hour mark and the party is close to finishing an area, the DM will let the party know and the party will decide as a group if they want to continue or just place it on pause until next session.
2. If a player is running late the game will start without that player, when the player arrives they should jump in as soon they feel comfortable.
3. If a player needs to leave early or stop playing, the game will continue but that character gets pulled from the game for the session.
4. No running 2 characters unless the story/spell allows a player to have a minion or specifically states the group controls an NPC, then it is up to the group who will control that NPC, when the NPC is assigned to a player they cannot be handed off to another player unless the original player leaves the session. Said NPC/minion will act on the controlling players initiative unless otherwise stated by story/spell rules.
5. Party need to ration rests, 2-3 short rests and one long rest per session preferably as more than that removes a lot of the challenge from the gameplay.
6. Players should not feel an obligation to show up if they have something else to do or just simply do not feel like playing. If 3 or more party members cannot make a session it will be up to the remaining party members if they want to play that week, if they do it will be up to them if they want to continue the main campaign or do a one off, if they decide they want a one off it is the DMs responsibility to set one up however they see fit.
7. Sometimes the DM has to act like an ******* for the NPC they have to play as, do not get upset if it seems like the DM is targeting you specifically with that NPC, 99% of the time they are instructed to because of the players race/class/alignment/background/previous actions.
8. If the DM cancels a session and a player still wants to play feel free to get with the other players and set up your own game, just leave the current module/story that the current DM is running alone as to not ruin the story.
9. Respect other people at the table, we have all invested time and money to play this game and have fun.
10. Remember this is all about having fun, if anyone feels that they are not having fun it is ok to let everyone else know they are not enjoying themselves and they are under no pressure to continue playing.
If laying it out this way doesn't elicit some type of improved behavior or offer an out for her to quit i'll just have to be direct.
If my math is right, the group is: your friend who got you to DM; the problem player; her sister; her boyfriend; an unnamed player; and you. My first thought is that it sounds like she has some medical issues. You haven't said anything to suggest substance abuse, and aside from that, crying jags and passing out at the table is pretty extreme. My second is that she's probably there to please her boyfriend and sister, which means you and she have something in common. Is there something you can do to work around this? Is there a couch she can lay on across the room or a chair in a dark corner where she'd be more comfortable? If you're going to keep playing with her you should find a situation you can all work with, because there's no way she's not picking up on your tension, which is only adding to her tension, which is only adding to yours....
The group consists of myself and 5 others, person in question, her bf, her sister, and two other friends. She has no medical issues that I am aware of and shes not passing out she just lays her head down a refuses to respond to anyone other than her bf. There is a couch on the other side of my basement that we play in where she will go and lay down but she complains the entire time that she really just needs to go home. The other 2 players and myself have both talked to each other thinking she has a substance problem because the behavior has just started in the past 3 months and when we asked the bf and sister they both said she does not.
The problem you're going to have here is that if you decide to boot her from the group, her sister and her boyfriend will probably not take kindly to it... This is a situation in which removing her from the group is very likely to cause the entire group to break up.
I would be 100% miserable playing with a person like this and I'd have already stopped DMing for them. I'd probably use Torq's method, of stopping gaming with them on some other excuse about time, burnout, what have you, and then I would look to start up a new group. I would get 1 or 2 new people in, and then once a group has formed, approach the 2 people not related to/dating her (the ones you mentioned talking to) and ask if they would like to join in on this group.
The sister, the BF, and the girl in question, I would not probably ever invite back. No matter how good friends I am with sister and BF, problem girl would be too much of a stressor for me. I would not want to have anything to do with her, ever -- and especially not as a DM doing all that work only to have her pull this kind of thing.
If she's got a substance problem, well, I'm sorry about that, and maybe this'll seem heartless, but as a DM, my gaming table is not the place for people to solve their personal issues.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
My dime store psychoanalysis says she’s jealous and probably has some self esteem issues. She doesn’t like there being something her boyfriend does without her, so she forces her way in and her behavior is a way to passive-aggressively force him to pay attention to her, and constantly prove his devotion to her by abandoning the game and other people in favor of her. As a side benefit, all the rest of you need to pay attention to her as well, making the entire thing about her, and boosting that low self esteem. She might also not like D&D, but there’s a larger issue with her at play. If I’m right, I doubt it’s actually fix-able until she matures. You could talk to boyfriend and sister, over email or text or something, and ask them if they know what’s going on here and if they’ve noticed it. Be candid with them that her outbursts are ruining the fun for everyone and while you want to keep them as players, she is on thin ice. Ask how upset they would be if you booted her. (And the boyfriend should totally break up with her and find someone lower maintainence)
Then have the conversation with her. She might have an outburst, but that will likely be the last time you’ll need to deal with her — rip off that band aid quickly, it will be better to be done with it one way or the other.
And also, I like your rules, but move the last 2 to the top, I’d say. Those are the bigger priority.
I would ask her, not accusingly, if she enjoys the game. Ask her to be honest, because it sounds a lot like she doesn't.
Maybe she just likes to hang out with the group and doesn't want to be left out? If so, I would tell her she doesn't have to be in the game and that she can still hang out while you play, maybe even offer to let her voice NPC's or control monsters at times, and tell her you can give her character an out (her long lost mother is alive! Now they need to go into hiding from those who pursue her) without killing them.
I'd just stress that, while she can hang with you guys, ask that she respects that the other people at the table are there to game, and while it's fine to have cross-talk at the table, don't let it dominate the gaming experience.
If they cannot abide by that last bit especially, then you just cannot play with that person.
Unrelated note, but if you're allowing multiple short rests and a long rest every session, you're going to run into balance issues.
Most challenge ratings and DC's in the game are based around the players having a finite amount of character resources and class abilities. The developers calculate that, in order to present a suitable challenge to your players, you should have them face up to 8 challenges per adventuring day. A "challenge" doesn't have to be combat, they could easily be puzzles or roleplay opportunities, but there should still be multiple combats per adventuring day.
Now, given how long it takes to run your standard encounter in real time vs game time, 8 encounters in a 4-5 hour session is unrealistic, so to keep things challenging, I would recommend tracking time across sessions, so you can have multiple sessions within the same adventuring day. That way players will have to be more careful while spending their resources, and be more challenged as they deplete.
The rests are actually there to help accommodate the couple of smokers that are in the party because I don’t allow smoking in my house, I’m trying to break it down further until possibly only 1 rest is needed
FWIW, I've had groups take smoke breaks or let the dog out or whatever in the middle of fights, or riding on horseback from one place to another. In game rests needn't sync up to real time that way, though it is sometimes a convenient place to pause.
wow.once or twice l might tolerate it,but at this point l would kick her out, though l would talk the 3 of them first first.
"her" to give her a chance to change/calm down,and her bf/sister to see if they would have to leave the game if she was kicked out.
lf you are worried about them leaving,talk to them first or better yet,b4 or after a session sit all 3 of them down and talk about the problems you have and try to work out ways to solve them,and if she is not willing to be a better player,tell her that if she does not like being in the game,she can leave,but make sure you also ask the other 2 their thoughts on the matter and lf they would stay if she leaves.
tl;dr talk to them and try to work something out. if they have to leave,its sad,but as some people have said in other storys about bad players:its better to have no dnd then bad dnd.