So I’m running dungeon of the mad mage and my group flew through the first level just wanting to get to skullport. Problem is that they now get the XP earning angle of the game (having previously only played milestone games) and are now paranoid level 3 is going to be too hard for them. They are now c r a w l i n g through level 2 grinding xp and I can tell they’re starting to lose the wind in their sails. I need to pep it up a bit.
Any tips on mixing xp earning with milestones for completing something? They’ve just killed Shunn and the other Xanathar thugs so thinking about giving them a bulk of xp for doing that. But how do I know what is the right amount of xp?
To be honest, you don't know what is the right amount. The nice thing is if you give too much or too little you can adjust it later if you really feel it needs to be done.
Honestly, the first few levels are painful because you are so fragile and a couple bad rolls will kill you. I always try for myself and encourage other DMs to push through levels 1 and 2 as fast as you are comfortable. Players like to grow and be rewarded for their efforts. (and why I generally start at level 3 or get to level 3 by the end of the first session).
In general the way to use a combination of xp and milestones is "Use milestones, but use xp as a guide for what is a milestone". Alternately, you can replace or supplement kill xp with quest xp (accomplish X, get Y experience).
As a DM who's run Dungeon of the Mad Mage, I'll tell you this one piece of advice:
Don't run it with XP.
Use Milestone.
Milestone will work so much better, because of how big the dungeon levels are, and how many creatures they have to fight. If you run it with XP, the fights will get boring very very quickly. You have to kill so many drow and goblinoids on the first levels that if you want to shake things up a bit by adding in more powerful creatures, the players will gain way way waaaayyyy too much XP too quickly. My party got to level 16 by the 10th level of the dungeon.
Use Milestone. I regret not doing Milestone. Do milestone.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
You can of course shake up the difficulty without changing total xp awards: just merge encounters. Two medium encounters mashed together will generally be Deadly+.
Thanks everyone. Food for thought. I think I’m going to mix earning with milestone. I reckon the group like the accomplishment of getting xp but it’s not enough to keep it interesting.
I like the idea that xp is a guide to that milestone. I’ve left it to the players to track xp (it’s just another thing) but I appreciate that I need to get on top of it now.
We need to get out of level 2 (we’ve been here for 5 sessions!!) so going to give them a milestone reward, which hopefully levels them up and push down.
I've gone for a combination in BG-DiA (haven't played or read Dungeon of the Mad Mage). I did it for two reasons: 1. We seldom manage to gather all players (that was pre-co-vid...) 2. I wanted the characters to be able to follow their progress.
The basics of the "system" I used is more or less:
Start with the character(s) with the highest level (let's say it's 3). How much XP is needed to go from level 3 to 4 (1800 XP). Divide this by number of sessions you think there will be between milestone 3 and 4 (let's say you think that's 4). Then 1800XP/4=450XP per session.
I also usually adjust the amount a little depending on the session. I would give slightly less than the "average" in the first session at a level, and certainly give more for one of the big fights or revelations (when hey reach the milestone, you can give them some extra). I've done this by multiplying with somewhere between 0.4 and 1.5. Finally I adjust it so it "feels" right, makes sure they don't have to have a "drop" in xp next session and that they kind of level up at the milestone.
What I like with it (in addition to the players can follow their progress) is that they get as much experience for avoiding fights, so you don't have to mind about grinding :-)
If you're interested, I created an XP tracker that's more in-depth than anything I've seen out there. It incorporates bumps for major and minor milestones that can be awarded to individuals or to the entire party and scale in value with character level, individual XP bumps for when characters do particularly inspired things that also scales by level, and some modifications to combat like adding a small bump for striking a lethal blow, adding an extra 5% to the overall encounter value for good tactics or a rout, subtracting 5% of the encounter value for terrible tactics that still work, and awarding 1/2 credit for a well-fought encounter that the party fails and needs to retreat but you still feel like they did well enough to earn some XP.
You can also assign your own custom XP value to social encounters so that those count as well.
Even with this level of detail though, I still use it as a guide rather than a hard rule. I don't love when members of the party are different levels, so having a really in-depth XP tracker is more useful for me to get an idea of where everyone is at, and then i can adjust and tinker to make sure that the leveling stays where i want it to stay for my campaign.
@IBernstein: Nice excel-sheet :-) The +/-5% is a little clunky (in my download). I have to use the formula ="+", you could format this cells as text.
It's a little to broken down on characters for me. I am reluctant to give XP for "being awesome". It might only be me, but I feel this often rewards the most outspoken and "visible" players, and the more "quite" characters get overlooked (but that's just my preferences). However I grant individual XP for being quick top answer on messenger when I ask when people can play :-)
Thanks for the feeback, I'll have a look. I think the final blow mechanic has the potential to award outsized boosts to melee fighters and tanks as well, so I'm considering scaling back the value (i don't want to do away with it altogether).
I included the the character breakdown because I had a group of new players who didn't really understand the implications of "you can try to do LITERALLY anything you want in D&D", and I wanted them to explore their characters and it actually worked. Once they realized that there was a built-in reward system for creativity, they started to push the boundaries of their characters just to see "if I do X, do I get XP"? Early on, even something as simple as the Druid realizing he could use his Wild Shape to be a rat and explore a tunnel that he couldn't fit in as a human was enough for me to award a mark, and once the more reserved players learned that they could earn XP by doing things outside of combat, it really encouraged them to interact with their abilities and find creative solutions for problems.
That said, if I had a table of more experienced players I'd probably dial back the individual rewards unless someone did something truly magnificent.
Nice to see other people with a love for Excel :-)
Yeah, for new players, it works great. It's when the players get more experienced, it kind of looses its "impact" and it becomes a kind of a competition. Then I stop, and rather give them the same amount of XP to encourage to act as a group. It's kind of like teaching a dog to sit: you'll need some goodies to train him, but when he has learned the trick, you don't need the treat anymore... One thing that actually works very well is awarding XP for things out of game (especially as life happens and everyone starts having kids, work etc). In one campaign I gave XP for writing resumes. It ended up with usually two to three resumes of each session. Each written by a different character with a different point of view. It's still the best documented campaign I've ever run :-)
The basics of the "system" I used is more or less:
Start with the character(s) with the highest level (let's say it's 3). How much XP is needed to go from level 3 to 4 (1800 XP). Divide this by number of sessions you think there will be between milestone 3 and 4 (let's say you think that's 4). Then 1800XP/4=450XP per session.
I do something similar. We meet about once a month and while we enjoy combat, the majority of the players want something more than a combat simulator. So I award XP to the party based on the character with the highest level (level × 300). If they complete a combat and it would award more XP, I give them the larger outcome. I'll also give out bonus XP for major story beats and for birthdays.
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So I’m running dungeon of the mad mage and my group flew through the first level just wanting to get to skullport. Problem is that they now get the XP earning angle of the game (having previously only played milestone games) and are now paranoid level 3 is going to be too hard for them. They are now c r a w l i n g through level 2 grinding xp and I can tell they’re starting to lose the wind in their sails. I need to pep it up a bit.
Any tips on mixing xp earning with milestones for completing something? They’ve just killed Shunn and the other Xanathar thugs so thinking about giving them a bulk of xp for doing that. But how do I know what is the right amount of xp?
To be honest, you don't know what is the right amount. The nice thing is if you give too much or too little you can adjust it later if you really feel it needs to be done.
Honestly, the first few levels are painful because you are so fragile and a couple bad rolls will kill you. I always try for myself and encourage other DMs to push through levels 1 and 2 as fast as you are comfortable. Players like to grow and be rewarded for their efforts. (and why I generally start at level 3 or get to level 3 by the end of the first session).
In general the way to use a combination of xp and milestones is "Use milestones, but use xp as a guide for what is a milestone". Alternately, you can replace or supplement kill xp with quest xp (accomplish X, get Y experience).
As a DM who's run Dungeon of the Mad Mage, I'll tell you this one piece of advice:
Don't run it with XP.
Use Milestone.
Milestone will work so much better, because of how big the dungeon levels are, and how many creatures they have to fight. If you run it with XP, the fights will get boring very very quickly. You have to kill so many drow and goblinoids on the first levels that if you want to shake things up a bit by adding in more powerful creatures, the players will gain way way waaaayyyy too much XP too quickly. My party got to level 16 by the 10th level of the dungeon.
Use Milestone. I regret not doing Milestone. Do milestone.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
You can of course shake up the difficulty without changing total xp awards: just merge encounters. Two medium encounters mashed together will generally be Deadly+.
Thanks everyone. Food for thought. I think I’m going to mix earning with milestone. I reckon the group like the accomplishment of getting xp but it’s not enough to keep it interesting.
I like the idea that xp is a guide to that milestone. I’ve left it to the players to track xp (it’s just another thing) but I appreciate that I need to get on top of it now.
We need to get out of level 2 (we’ve been here for 5 sessions!!) so going to give them a milestone reward, which hopefully levels them up and push down.
Hi,
I've gone for a combination in BG-DiA (haven't played or read Dungeon of the Mad Mage). I did it for two reasons: 1. We seldom manage to gather all players (that was pre-co-vid...) 2. I wanted the characters to be able to follow their progress.
The basics of the "system" I used is more or less:
Start with the character(s) with the highest level (let's say it's 3). How much XP is needed to go from level 3 to 4 (1800 XP). Divide this by number of sessions you think there will be between milestone 3 and 4 (let's say you think that's 4). Then 1800XP/4=450XP per session.
I also usually adjust the amount a little depending on the session. I would give slightly less than the "average" in the first session at a level, and certainly give more for one of the big fights or revelations (when hey reach the milestone, you can give them some extra). I've done this by multiplying with somewhere between 0.4 and 1.5. Finally I adjust it so it "feels" right, makes sure they don't have to have a "drop" in xp next session and that they kind of level up at the milestone.
What I like with it (in addition to the players can follow their progress) is that they get as much experience for avoiding fights, so you don't have to mind about grinding :-)
Ludo ergo sum!
If you're interested, I created an XP tracker that's more in-depth than anything I've seen out there. It incorporates bumps for major and minor milestones that can be awarded to individuals or to the entire party and scale in value with character level, individual XP bumps for when characters do particularly inspired things that also scales by level, and some modifications to combat like adding a small bump for striking a lethal blow, adding an extra 5% to the overall encounter value for good tactics or a rout, subtracting 5% of the encounter value for terrible tactics that still work, and awarding 1/2 credit for a well-fought encounter that the party fails and needs to retreat but you still feel like they did well enough to earn some XP.
You can also assign your own custom XP value to social encounters so that those count as well.
Even with this level of detail though, I still use it as a guide rather than a hard rule. I don't love when members of the party are different levels, so having a really in-depth XP tracker is more useful for me to get an idea of where everyone is at, and then i can adjust and tinker to make sure that the leveling stays where i want it to stay for my campaign.
Feel free to use, just make a copy:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S93xIPOpKTIWl9ueqji7gMxRMCHz34oX/view?usp=sharing
"To die would be an awfully big adventure"
@IBernstein: Nice excel-sheet :-) The +/-5% is a little clunky (in my download). I have to use the formula ="+", you could format this cells as text.
It's a little to broken down on characters for me. I am reluctant to give XP for "being awesome". It might only be me, but I feel this often rewards the most outspoken and "visible" players, and the more "quite" characters get overlooked (but that's just my preferences). However I grant individual XP for being quick top answer on messenger when I ask when people can play :-)
Ludo ergo sum!
Thanks for the feeback, I'll have a look. I think the final blow mechanic has the potential to award outsized boosts to melee fighters and tanks as well, so I'm considering scaling back the value (i don't want to do away with it altogether).
I included the the character breakdown because I had a group of new players who didn't really understand the implications of "you can try to do LITERALLY anything you want in D&D", and I wanted them to explore their characters and it actually worked. Once they realized that there was a built-in reward system for creativity, they started to push the boundaries of their characters just to see "if I do X, do I get XP"? Early on, even something as simple as the Druid realizing he could use his Wild Shape to be a rat and explore a tunnel that he couldn't fit in as a human was enough for me to award a mark, and once the more reserved players learned that they could earn XP by doing things outside of combat, it really encouraged them to interact with their abilities and find creative solutions for problems.
That said, if I had a table of more experienced players I'd probably dial back the individual rewards unless someone did something truly magnificent.
"To die would be an awfully big adventure"
Nice to see other people with a love for Excel :-)
Yeah, for new players, it works great. It's when the players get more experienced, it kind of looses its "impact" and it becomes a kind of a competition. Then I stop, and rather give them the same amount of XP to encourage to act as a group. It's kind of like teaching a dog to sit: you'll need some goodies to train him, but when he has learned the trick, you don't need the treat anymore... One thing that actually works very well is awarding XP for things out of game (especially as life happens and everyone starts having kids, work etc). In one campaign I gave XP for writing resumes. It ended up with usually two to three resumes of each session. Each written by a different character with a different point of view. It's still the best documented campaign I've ever run :-)
Ludo ergo sum!
This is great! Definitely going to hive it a go. Thanks for sharing.
I do something similar. We meet about once a month and while we enjoy combat, the majority of the players want something more than a combat simulator. So I award XP to the party based on the character with the highest level (level × 300). If they complete a combat and it would award more XP, I give them the larger outcome. I'll also give out bonus XP for major story beats and for birthdays.