I get that on paper their DPR can be super high if they have after 3 or 4 rounds, but are they actually as OP as some people seem to think?
In terms of action economy killing off enemies as soon as possible and lowering how many attacks per round they are getting is the best thing you can do. Setting up your debuffs to get big damage on a boss requires the sorlock to focus on a big HP target and not help clear out minion (or at least not use hex or bonus action on them). And by the time a 3rd or 4th round comes up a lot of fights have already been decided.
Sorlocks also aren't going to have higher level spells and even spell slots unlike other casters that mulitclass. And they are going to be behind on ASI.
So yeah they can pump out crazy damage after rounds of prep, but is it really stronger than say a single class sorc or wizard that is going to pop out 2 fireballs in the same time and obliterate the battle map?
The most common Sorlock Dip I read about is focused on the Agonizing Blast invocation combined with Quickened Casting.
At 5th level, a Sorlock prepping only with Hex will be able to regularly send (4x) bolts to deal 1d10+1d6+4 each (Average of 52 Force damage per round with cantrips).
By comparison, a 5th level Ranger with Hunter's Mark and a Longbow will shoot (2x) arrows to deal 1d8+1d6+5 (Average of 24 damage per round. 27.5 with an ability like Colossus Slayer)
There may be other potent combinations, but a Min-Maxed Sorlock will immediately outshine most other classes in terms of Raw power. Not only does it deal twice as much damage as the ranger every round, but it is also magical damage that very few creatures are resistant to.
At 5th level, a Sorlock prepping only with Hex will be able to regularly send (4x) bolts to deal 1d10+1d6+4 each (Average of 52 Force damage per round with cantrips).
If by 'regularly' you mean 'up to six times per day, if he spends all his spell slots and sorcery points doing it, and never on the first round of attacking a given foe, and dependent on using up concentration' (also, the hex damage is necrotic). Yes, that's a pretty strong single target nuke, but it's not out of line with other single target attackers.
Keep in mind that the Pact magic slots can also be converted for an additional use after every Short Rest.
While at 5th level the Sorlock is held back slightly (Unless they take the Eldritch Adept (UA) feat), they can reasonably manage 9+ uses in a day, which is enough to single-handedly take on a full day's worth of CR 5 encounters.
The combination of Pact Magic and Font of Magic is a very handy trick on its own.
I'm not suggesting that Sorlocks are inherently broken, but it is a highly synergistic path that deserves to be recognized as such.
Keep in mind that the Pact magic slots can also be converted for an additional use after every Short Rest.
While at 5th level the Sorlock is held back slightly (Unless they take the Eldritch Adept (UA) feat), they can reasonably manage 9+ uses in a day, which is enough to single-handedly take on a full day's worth of CR 5 encounters.
At level 5 you are only going to have 3 sorc points.
That means you can only quicken 1x per combat without having to start using bonus actions to get out doulble bolts. both casting quicken and converting slots take a bonus action so it is going to take 2 turns to do it minimum. If you also have to move a hex that can make it take even longer.
This is what I mean buy saying it sorlock looks super powerful on paper but a lot of the time in a game it doesn't seem as OP as some people make it out to be at all.
At low level, they'll have fewer uses, but the damage output per round is still very high.
It's also worth noting that you mention double-casting Fireball as a counter example. The only time two spells can be cast in the same turn (aside from Action Surge) is if one if them is a cantrip, which is one of the reasons why Eldritch Blast optimization is so powerful.
At level 5 my Warlock single class is doing pretty solid damage - in one encounter with an Orc camp that we invaded I single shotted the Ogre that was leading the band though that was a crit hit. Normally for max damage though I combine Agonising blast and Maddening Hex, giving me 1d10+5 +1d6 +5 which averages at 19 damage per EB and with 2 blasts hitting the target I get 28 damage per round on average.
As a 2nd level Warlock though you only have 2 1st level pact slots and only once can be converted to sorcery points per round so you waste 2 rounds doing nothing. Plus a level 3 sorcerer only has 3 sorcery points meaning that you can only reliably do this 3 times, and another 2 times per short rest. I think saying you can do it 9 times per day is being really generous with short rests where 2 is about average in most games. Some get just one short rest and I have gone entire game sessions without a single short rest which can be a bummer as a warlock.
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science] Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews! Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya! Characters (Outdated)
I mostly see them as major damage issues around level 11 or so. That is when they have 9 or so sorcery points and can spam the Quicken EB pretty routinely. They dont even need Hex at that point for pretty good damage:
3 beams d10+5 = 31.5
Quickened: 63
By comparison a Battlemaster with Sharpshooter and CBE:
(1d6+14) 3 attacks + CBE Bonus action attack = 70
HOWEVER the BM is going to have a lot harder time with higher AC enemies and getting advantage to up those damage numbers while the Sorlock can usually get advantage via spells (Darkness+Devilsight, etc...) and if they take elven accuracy they start getting pretty scary damage wise.
Overall are they broken? Not quite as you have to invest a LOT into the damage numbers to get them crazy high but they will burn out most sub-100 HP enemies pretty darn fast regardless of AC.
Its mostly something to keep in your mind as you write encounters. Personally I wouldn't ban them but have ways to make it challenging for them. Mostly have big things hit them as their weak point will likely be AC and HP.
The combination is not OP whether combined with hexblade warlock or not. I'm also currently playing one 1 fighter/7 sorcerer/ 2 warlock at level 10 and I do not outshine the rest of the party.
At level 5 a sorlock is a level 3 sorcerer/2 warlock. They have 3 sorcery points MAXIMUM in their pool. It costs 2 sorcery points to quicken eldritch blast. They have 2 second level spell slots, 4 first and 2 first level pact slots.
In the first round of combat they can either quicken eldritch blast using 2 sorcery points or cast hex which also uses a spell slot. Lets say they cast hex and agonizing blast. The next round they use 2 sorcery points to do quicken AB. The third round they only have 1 sorcery point so they have to sacrifice a first level slot to do it again. The fourth round of combat they can quicken AB again if they want and have zero sorcery points left. However, a lot of combats may not even go for four combat rounds which means the sorlock typically will quicken AB once. If the combat goes on longer the sorcerer can alternate sacrificing their 2 second level spell slots and casting AB. By round 8 they will have quickened 4 times, have zero sorcery points, zero second level spell slots, 3 first level slots and one first level pact magic slot (depending on which they used for hex) and they will be done for the day. They have at most one two more uses of quicken if they sacrifice all of their spells slots which takes 4 more bonus actions so quickened AB drops to once every 3 rounds at this point if the combat lasts that long. In addition, they will have no spell slots or sorcery points left so the next encounter they won't even have hex.
This also prevents them from using any other spells - no shield to defend themselves, no absorb elements, no protection from good and evil, no healing word (if they happen to be a divine soul) ... basically nothing. They have spent all of their long rest resources to do essentially 50% more damage for up to 8 rounds and 33% for an additional 6 rounds.
Does it make a difference? Sure. Is it OP ... far from it.
In my experience, with my character who has 7 sorcery points, it has rarely been worthwhile to quicken AB compared to the other options available just by casting their spells. Twinned haste in a good melee party, twinned protection from evil depending on opponents, even a fireball at the right time are all usually better uses of sorcery points and spell slots than a quickened AB. Anyway, that is my experience from actually playing one. In a pinch, at higher levels, they can use their sorcery pool and spell slots to increase their single target DPS by about 75-90% depending on how often they have to move hex (or by almost 100% if they are concentrating on something other than hex) ... however compared to a Sharpshooter/Xbow expert archer or PAM/GWM build against lower AC targets ... it can almost keep pace at the cost of expending resources ... sorcery points and spell slots.
(It is a sad sorlock who uses their level 3 and 4 slots to quicken their AB and has none left for counterspell ...)
The combination is not OP whether combined with hexblade warlock or not. I'm also currently playing one 1 fighter/7 sorcerer/ 2 warlock at level 10 and I do not outshine the rest of the party.
At level 5 a sorlock is a level 3 sorcerer/2 warlock. They have 3 sorcery points MAXIMUM in their pool. It costs 2 sorcery points to quicken eldritch blast. They have 2 second level spell slots, 4 first and 2 first level pact slots.
In the first round of combat they can either quicken eldritch blast using 2 sorcery points or cast hex which also uses a spell slot. Lets say they cast hex and agonizing blast. The next round they use 2 sorcery points to do quicken AB. The third round they only have 1 sorcery point so they have to sacrifice a first level slot to do it again. The fourth round of combat they can quicken AB again if they want and have zero sorcery points left. However, a lot of combats may not even go for four combat rounds which means the sorlock typically will quicken AB once. If the combat goes on longer the sorcerer can alternate sacrificing their 2 second level spell slots and casting AB. By round 8 they will have quickened 4 times, have zero sorcery points, zero second level spell slots, 3 first level slots and one first level pact magic slot (depending on which they used for hex) and they will be done for the day. They have at most one two more uses of quicken if they sacrifice all of their spells slots which takes 4 more bonus actions so quickened AB drops to once every 3 rounds at this point if the combat lasts that long. In addition, they will have no spell slots or sorcery points left so the next encounter they won't even have hex.
This also prevents them from using any other spells - no shield to defend themselves, no absorb elements, no protection from good and evil, no healing word (if they happen to be a divine soul) ... basically nothing. They have spent all of their long rest resources to do essentially 50% more damage for up to 8 rounds and 33% for an additional 6 rounds.
Does it make a difference? Sure. Is it OP ... far from it.
In my experience, with my character who has 7 sorcery points, it has rarely been worthwhile to quicken AB compared to the other options available just by casting their spells. Twinned haste in a good melee party, twinned protection from evil depending on opponents, even a fireball at the right time are all usually better uses of sorcery points and spell slots than a quickened AB. Anyway, that is my experience from actually playing one. In a pinch, at higher levels, they can use their sorcery pool and spell slots to increase their single target DPS by about 75-90% depending on how often they have to move hex (or by almost 100% if they are concentrating on something other than hex) ... however compared to a Sharpshooter/Xbow expert archer or PAM/GWM build against lower AC targets ... it can almost keep pace at the cost of expending resources ... sorcery points and spell slots.
(It is a sad sorlock who uses their level 3 and 4 slots to quicken their AB and has none left for counterspell ...)
This highlights the opportunity costs well and also highlights some things you could do to help challenge them and question the use of the SP solely for Quicken. Overall they are manageable with this kind of information and forward planning.
You could also introduce challenges in the form of non-damage related consequences like NPCs, time limits, or interactions during combat.
At low level, they'll have fewer uses, but the damage output per round is still very high.
It's also worth noting that you mention double-casting Fireball as a counter example. The only time two spells can be cast in the same turn (aside from Action Surge) is if one if them is a cantrip, which is one of the reasons why Eldritch Blast optimization is so powerful.
I know man, no one said quicken fireball. You have 2 3rd level slots at level 5, so you can cast 2 fireballs, if you don't multiclass.
My favorite character I play is a SorLock. Most of the time if I'm using quicken spell its on a leveled defensive or control spell (Faerie Fire is a favorite) followed by Eldritch Blast. I've machine-gunned EB a few times in a pinch, but most of the time its about setting up a concentration spell while still remaining valuable offensively. While the total damage output is impressive; its a much better use of your spell resources to focus on other priorities than pure damage.
The only really OP way to use one is to CoffeeLock, but if you don't do that, its a normal, if effective, class combination (similar to practically any multiclass with Warlock)
It's also worth noting that you mention double-casting Fireball as a counter example....
I know man, no one said quicken fireball. You have 2 3rd level slots at level 5, so you can cast 2 fireballs, if you don't multiclass.
Misread your "...in the same time" as "...at the same time". I was brain dead after a long day of exams. >_<
With a bit of sleep, I tend to agree that a full sorcerer is likely to be more powerful in the long run. Sorlocks are some of the best precision damage dealers, but getting access to more Sorcery Points and higher level spells quickly tends to be the better option.
The only issue with higher level spells is that they are frequently situational, whereas EB+AB can be safely spammed in every encounter. In a confined space, the Sorcerer may simply not be able to cast Fireball, let alone twice, and against common resistances or BBEGs, the damage output of specialized spells becomes less impressive.
Sorlocks are always good in a pinch, which can make them feel unbalanced when everyone else in the party is taking turns being in or out of the spotlight.
On the issue of the CoffeeLock, I would be inclined to make it so both Creating Spell Slots and Converting Spell Slots can only restore up to original max, not increase above max.
The one thing I do think would make sorlocks OP is if Tasha's Cauldron lets you get +2 CHA on Elves with their trance trait allowing you to get a long rest and 4 short rests in the same amount of time as the rest of your party gets a long rest.
The one thing I do think would make sorlocks OP is if Tasha's Cauldron lets you get +2 CHA on Elves with their trance trait allowing you to get a long rest and 4 short rests in the same amount of time as the rest of your party gets a long rest.
The way trance and long rests are worded makes it unclear whether trance actually makes a long rest shorter, or whether it just lets you spend less of it sleeping, but in any case, it's moot if you don't let creating/converting spell slots put you above your max.
The one thing I do think would make sorlocks OP is if Tasha's Cauldron lets you get +2 CHA on Elves with their trance trait allowing you to get a long rest and 4 short rests in the same amount of time as the rest of your party gets a long rest.
The way trance and long rests are worded makes it unclear whether trance actually makes a long rest shorter, or whether it just lets you spend less of it sleeping, but in any case, it's moot if you don't let creating/converting spell slots put you above your max.
Sage advice cleared it up and said that trance does give long rests in 4 hours.
Also I don't think that you really have to mention that you can make anything not matter if you use house rules. That goes with out saying and it applies to literally everything in the game.
Also I don't think that you really have to mention that you can make anything not matter if you use house rules. That goes with out saying and it applies to literally everything in the game.
The fundamental issue with the coffeelock is that it lets you trade short rest resources for long rest resources; your elf is just a subset of the coffeelock. There's no path for dealing with it other than house rules that render that tradeoff impossible or moot, but it's also a clear exploit, so prime territory for house rules.
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I get that on paper their DPR can be super high if they have after 3 or 4 rounds, but are they actually as OP as some people seem to think?
In terms of action economy killing off enemies as soon as possible and lowering how many attacks per round they are getting is the best thing you can do.
Setting up your debuffs to get big damage on a boss requires the sorlock to focus on a big HP target and not help clear out minion (or at least not use hex or bonus action on them). And by the time a 3rd or 4th round comes up a lot of fights have already been decided.
Sorlocks also aren't going to have higher level spells and even spell slots unlike other casters that mulitclass. And they are going to be behind on ASI.
So yeah they can pump out crazy damage after rounds of prep, but is it really stronger than say a single class sorc or wizard that is going to pop out 2 fireballs in the same time and obliterate the battle map?
As long as you disallow hexblade warlock class dips aren't a big deal. Hexblade should never have made it through playtest.
The most common Sorlock Dip I read about is focused on the Agonizing Blast invocation combined with Quickened Casting.
At 5th level, a Sorlock prepping only with Hex will be able to regularly send (4x) bolts to deal 1d10+1d6+4 each (Average of 52 Force damage per round with cantrips).
By comparison, a 5th level Ranger with Hunter's Mark and a Longbow will shoot (2x) arrows to deal 1d8+1d6+5 (Average of 24 damage per round. 27.5 with an ability like Colossus Slayer)
There may be other potent combinations, but a Min-Maxed Sorlock will immediately outshine most other classes in terms of Raw power.
Not only does it deal twice as much damage as the ranger every round, but it is also magical damage that very few creatures are resistant to.
If by 'regularly' you mean 'up to six times per day, if he spends all his spell slots and sorcery points doing it, and never on the first round of attacking a given foe, and dependent on using up concentration' (also, the hex damage is necrotic). Yes, that's a pretty strong single target nuke, but it's not out of line with other single target attackers.
Edited for correctness
Keep in mind that the Pact magic slots can also be converted for an additional use after every Short Rest.
While at 5th level the Sorlock is held back slightly (Unless they take the Eldritch Adept (UA) feat), they can reasonably manage 9+ uses in a day, which is enough to single-handedly take on a full day's worth of CR 5 encounters.
The combination of Pact Magic and Font of Magic is a very handy trick on its own.
I'm not suggesting that Sorlocks are inherently broken, but it is a highly synergistic path that deserves to be recognized as such.
At level 5 you are only going to have 3 sorc points.
That means you can only quicken 1x per combat without having to start using bonus actions to get out doulble bolts. both casting quicken and converting slots take a bonus action so it is going to take 2 turns to do it minimum. If you also have to move a hex that can make it take even longer.
This is what I mean buy saying it sorlock looks super powerful on paper but a lot of the time in a game it doesn't seem as OP as some people make it out to be at all.
At low level, they'll have fewer uses, but the damage output per round is still very high.
It's also worth noting that you mention double-casting Fireball as a counter example. The only time two spells can be cast in the same turn (aside from Action Surge) is if one if them is a cantrip, which is one of the reasons why Eldritch Blast optimization is so powerful.
At level 5 my Warlock single class is doing pretty solid damage - in one encounter with an Orc camp that we invaded I single shotted the Ogre that was leading the band though that was a crit hit. Normally for max damage though I combine Agonising blast and Maddening Hex, giving me 1d10+5 +1d6 +5 which averages at 19 damage per EB and with 2 blasts hitting the target I get 28 damage per round on average.
As a 2nd level Warlock though you only have 2 1st level pact slots and only once can be converted to sorcery points per round so you waste 2 rounds doing nothing. Plus a level 3 sorcerer only has 3 sorcery points meaning that you can only reliably do this 3 times, and another 2 times per short rest. I think saying you can do it 9 times per day is being really generous with short rests where 2 is about average in most games. Some get just one short rest and I have gone entire game sessions without a single short rest which can be a bummer as a warlock.
i see some people saying sorcerers only have 3 sorcery points, but you can turn spell slots into points so you can have more if you want
EDIT:spelling error
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN
Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG
Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science]
Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews!
Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya!
Characters (Outdated)
I mostly see them as major damage issues around level 11 or so. That is when they have 9 or so sorcery points and can spam the Quicken EB pretty routinely. They dont even need Hex at that point for pretty good damage:
3 beams d10+5 = 31.5
Quickened: 63
By comparison a Battlemaster with Sharpshooter and CBE:
(1d6+14) 3 attacks + CBE Bonus action attack = 70
HOWEVER the BM is going to have a lot harder time with higher AC enemies and getting advantage to up those damage numbers while the Sorlock can usually get advantage via spells (Darkness+Devilsight, etc...) and if they take elven accuracy they start getting pretty scary damage wise.
Overall are they broken? Not quite as you have to invest a LOT into the damage numbers to get them crazy high but they will burn out most sub-100 HP enemies pretty darn fast regardless of AC.
Its mostly something to keep in your mind as you write encounters. Personally I wouldn't ban them but have ways to make it challenging for them. Mostly have big things hit them as their weak point will likely be AC and HP.
The combination is not OP whether combined with hexblade warlock or not. I'm also currently playing one 1 fighter/7 sorcerer/ 2 warlock at level 10 and I do not outshine the rest of the party.
At level 5 a sorlock is a level 3 sorcerer/2 warlock. They have 3 sorcery points MAXIMUM in their pool. It costs 2 sorcery points to quicken eldritch blast. They have 2 second level spell slots, 4 first and 2 first level pact slots.
In the first round of combat they can either quicken eldritch blast using 2 sorcery points or cast hex which also uses a spell slot. Lets say they cast hex and agonizing blast. The next round they use 2 sorcery points to do quicken AB. The third round they only have 1 sorcery point so they have to sacrifice a first level slot to do it again. The fourth round of combat they can quicken AB again if they want and have zero sorcery points left. However, a lot of combats may not even go for four combat rounds which means the sorlock typically will quicken AB once. If the combat goes on longer the sorcerer can alternate sacrificing their 2 second level spell slots and casting AB. By round 8 they will have quickened 4 times, have zero sorcery points, zero second level spell slots, 3 first level slots and one first level pact magic slot (depending on which they used for hex) and they will be done for the day. They have at most one two more uses of quicken if they sacrifice all of their spells slots which takes 4 more bonus actions so quickened AB drops to once every 3 rounds at this point if the combat lasts that long. In addition, they will have no spell slots or sorcery points left so the next encounter they won't even have hex.
This also prevents them from using any other spells - no shield to defend themselves, no absorb elements, no protection from good and evil, no healing word (if they happen to be a divine soul) ... basically nothing. They have spent all of their long rest resources to do essentially 50% more damage for up to 8 rounds and 33% for an additional 6 rounds.
Does it make a difference? Sure. Is it OP ... far from it.
In my experience, with my character who has 7 sorcery points, it has rarely been worthwhile to quicken AB compared to the other options available just by casting their spells. Twinned haste in a good melee party, twinned protection from evil depending on opponents, even a fireball at the right time are all usually better uses of sorcery points and spell slots than a quickened AB. Anyway, that is my experience from actually playing one. In a pinch, at higher levels, they can use their sorcery pool and spell slots to increase their single target DPS by about 75-90% depending on how often they have to move hex (or by almost 100% if they are concentrating on something other than hex) ... however compared to a Sharpshooter/Xbow expert archer or PAM/GWM build against lower AC targets ... it can almost keep pace at the cost of expending resources ... sorcery points and spell slots.
(It is a sad sorlock who uses their level 3 and 4 slots to quicken their AB and has none left for counterspell ...)
This highlights the opportunity costs well and also highlights some things you could do to help challenge them and question the use of the SP solely for Quicken. Overall they are manageable with this kind of information and forward planning.
You could also introduce challenges in the form of non-damage related consequences like NPCs, time limits, or interactions during combat.
I know man, no one said quicken fireball. You have 2 3rd level slots at level 5, so you can cast 2 fireballs, if you don't multiclass.
My favorite character I play is a SorLock. Most of the time if I'm using quicken spell its on a leveled defensive or control spell (Faerie Fire is a favorite) followed by Eldritch Blast. I've machine-gunned EB a few times in a pinch, but most of the time its about setting up a concentration spell while still remaining valuable offensively. While the total damage output is impressive; its a much better use of your spell resources to focus on other priorities than pure damage.
The only really OP way to use one is to CoffeeLock, but if you don't do that, its a normal, if effective, class combination (similar to practically any multiclass with Warlock)
Misread your "...in the same time" as "...at the same time".
I was brain dead after a long day of exams. >_<
With a bit of sleep, I tend to agree that a full sorcerer is likely to be more powerful in the long run. Sorlocks are some of the best precision damage dealers, but getting access to more Sorcery Points and higher level spells quickly tends to be the better option.
The only issue with higher level spells is that they are frequently situational, whereas EB+AB can be safely spammed in every encounter. In a confined space, the Sorcerer may simply not be able to cast Fireball, let alone twice, and against common resistances or BBEGs, the damage output of specialized spells becomes less impressive.
Sorlocks are always good in a pinch, which can make them feel unbalanced when everyone else in the party is taking turns being in or out of the spotlight.
On the issue of the CoffeeLock, I would be inclined to make it so both Creating Spell Slots and Converting Spell Slots can only restore up to original max, not increase above max.
The one thing I do think would make sorlocks OP is if Tasha's Cauldron lets you get +2 CHA on Elves with their trance trait allowing you to get a long rest and 4 short rests in the same amount of time as the rest of your party gets a long rest.
The way trance and long rests are worded makes it unclear whether trance actually makes a long rest shorter, or whether it just lets you spend less of it sleeping, but in any case, it's moot if you don't let creating/converting spell slots put you above your max.
Sage advice cleared it up and said that trance does give long rests in 4 hours.
Also I don't think that you really have to mention that you can make anything not matter if you use house rules. That goes with out saying and it applies to literally everything in the game.
The fundamental issue with the coffeelock is that it lets you trade short rest resources for long rest resources; your elf is just a subset of the coffeelock. There's no path for dealing with it other than house rules that render that tradeoff impossible or moot, but it's also a clear exploit, so prime territory for house rules.