So I have a level 12 party that includes an Ancients paladin and balancing has become very hard to do.
She pretty much nukes anything I throw at them and I end up upping the stats on the enemies pretty much every fight or the rest of the party doesn’t get much time to shine. I’ve checked and checked and she’s just following RAW, and I don’t want to force nerf her and punish her for just playing her character, but it’s starting to make it a little unfair to the other players, and honestly a little hard for me as a DM to watch after spending so long planning epic boss fights.
Just from reading the Oath of the Ancients, I'm having trouble seeing why this type of character would, beyond all other 12th level characters, be able to "nuke anything you throw at them." What exactly is she doing at the start of each fight that allows her to nuke it? Without knowing any specifics, such as what else the party has in it, what she is doing to "nuke" things, what enemies you are putting up against them, and the like, it's hard to make a recommendation.
However, the most common reason why one character nuking every fight happens is this: not enough encounters per rest. The DMG/MM assume 6-8 encounters in between long rests, with several (2-3) in between each short rest. If you are setting it up so they can long rest after every single fight, or shot rest after every fight and long rest after 2-3 fights, then you are asking for the players to be able to nuke things, paladin oath or not. The game assumes that the PCs will not have every ability available to them across the entire party in every single fight. If they do have access to those, in every fight, then as a DM you have to crank the difficulty way up. A party of level 12s can probably take on a CR 20+ without a major issue, if it is the only fight of the day and they can use all their abilities. My level 5 party easily knocks out CR 8s. Again, if it is the only fight of the day. If they have to husband their resources, and know they are going to have several fights, resting is not going to be automatic, and they may not be able to retreat to a safe place to recover, they will hoard those spell slots and special abilities, and only use them when absolutely necessary, instead relying on their more mundane weapons and cantrips. There is a huge difference between the sorcerer who can hurl fireball at the start of every fight, and the sorcerer who is holding his level 3 spell slot "just in case" he needs it later in the day.
There are other reasons why this could be happening as well, though the most common is just not factoring in the # of encounters per long rest. For example, are most of your fights against one monster? If so, then the party outnumbers the monster and it will die really fast unless it is WAY above their power level, especially if that is compounded by being the only fight of the day. Also, if it's a single monster the paladin can unleash with her alpha strike and nuke the enemy without worrying she might need it later against someone else. If there are multiple threats, the paladin can't (or shouldn't be able to) nuke them all. Here you want to avoid the master villain with a bunch of weak minions. The Pally can still nuke the MV and leave the party to mop up the little ones. Rather, put in 2 or 3 reasonably equal enemies... so instead of a CR15 with 5 CR 3 minions... put in three CR 11s or something. This forces them to consider all three as threats, and if they focus on just one, the other two will take a toll.
Another common issue is that DMs focus too much on AC, hit points, and attack that do straight damage. You can cause absolute chaos in a party with spells that do no damage at all (Grease, etc.). And don't ignore the tactical situation -- ranged enemies across a flaming pit on platforms that separate them far enough to avoid AOE spells, shooting at the party while the party tries to close in enough to get their own attacks off, will nullify a lot of the "nuking" abilities. Bonus points if the enemies are firing something with longer range than the party has, like a ballista or a trebuchet. Ouch.
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Since the character is playing a Paladin that might give you some in character means of toning their applied power down. Paladins have honor and a desire to protect the weak (usually.)
I had a similar problem back in 3.5 with a very optimized fighter. He was an absolute beast in combat, he used a spear and just wrecked everything he got close to. My solution was to put him in positions where he was fighting alone versus swarms, groups or something much more appropriate to his challenge level. His player was actually thrilled at the challenge and enjoyed being the “rear guard” of the group.
The way I handled splitting the party like that was having him and the rest of the group enter combat at the same time, and use the same initiative stack. So fighter went first, then the rogue and so on. It was just that the fighter was on a separate map and fighting something else than the main group.
I also would make it absolutely certain that he would have to fight that monster alone, once a block of stone fell down and separated him from the group and a squad of wights attacked the fighter, at the same time ghouls attacked the rest of the group. So it wasn’t like they had time to spare.
When it came time for big theatrical BBEG fights, the villain would hit the Fighter first, with the most devastating attacks they could. Because by that point the Big Bad knows who’s wearing the Badass Shoulderplates in the group.
I’d also say don’t be afraid to have your bad guys all target the paladin, it just makes sense from their point of view to target what is obviously the biggest threat. Web spell + five goblins with bows can whittle a lot of threats down quickly. Poison the arrows and it gets more interesting in a hurry.
However, the most common reason why one character nuking every fight happens is this: not enough encounters per rest.
This.
I'd bet they're just smiting and smiting some more, but if they nuke everything in that first fight, then you throw a second one at them, they'll be all out of spell slots to smite with. At level 12, they've got 10 spell slots, at two attacks per round, they could probably burn through them all in 1-2 fights if they use them on every attack. Then you throw one more fight at them, and they won't be nuking anything. After a couple times, they'll probably get the message that they need to manage their resources. You need to make the players think there could always be another fight, and reserve some of their powers.
It depends a bit on what the other PCs are. In general paladins are:
Melee dps. They do poorly against enemies that they cannot get get in close combat with.
Single target dps. They are generally more potent against a single boss than a swarm of small creatures.
Long Rest Based. They are stronger if you have fewer encounters per day.
Pick setups where the other PCs are better optimized. If the other PCs are martial classes, more encounters per day (and maybe some that are kitey ranged attackers) will help. If the other PCs are spellcasters, focus more on range and numbers.
In addition to more encounters between rests (excellent advice!), you should use more and more varied foes per encounter.
Paladins excel at taking down one foe. So, give them a choice of many foes..
Which one to focus on? If the paladin kills this one, that one over there will do horrible things to the captured townsfolk. If they go after that one, then this one will probably take down the party rogue. Choices, with meaningful consequences.
If they are in a boss fight against a big ugly, then make sure the big ugly has some medoum ugly meat shields, some ranged fighters to annoy the party's casters, and a couple of harassers (your ever-useful wolves do well here) running around and taking advantage of opportunities (for example, grappling and dragging away downed party members).
As a bonus, if you add lots of foes then the casters really get to enjoy their big spells (fireball).
Another vote for “make sure you’re running enough encounters per day.” PCs will steamroll literally anything given long rests in between. You should never run less than 3 fights a day—and if it’s only 3, they should all be Deadly.
Plenty of long rests between combats, mostly just a big single target enemy to fight in combats, and mostly melee range damage with little to no environmental conditions in combats will all enhance what a paladin is good at. Skill challenges, in or out of combat, will give other PCs a chance to shine using their skills and/or spells. Flying enemies are always good. Or a multi level combat environment where the enemies are familiar with or very mobile themselves. "Smart" enemies that know to incapacitate the most damaging threat. Many groups of small creatures added to a fight. I'm thinking of minions from 4E. All normal stats, or enhanced damage stats, but only 1 hit point each. Lots of threat but no math to track. I had two paladins in a BG:DiA game I ran. I made up custom imps with 6 levels of wizard. They had burning hands, fireball, dispel magic, and counter spell. It worked well to shake up the group of PCs as they could be near the paladin for the aura but they are then in fireball formation. Imps can fly and turn invisible too so the paladin didn't really have the option to be the PC to handle them. Giving your big boss some PC class features will help some too. Rage is always effective and thematic. Battle master knock down effects will help to chip away at the paladin's hit points. Shield spell via some levels in sorcerer helps. Take away the paladin's action on their turn with something like a creature or ability the grapples and restrains on a hit. Pit traps. A mob of small but tough little creatures all rush the paladin, grapple them, and knock them prone. Even though paladins have great saving throws, general speaking, it's the charisma, maybe wisdom, and strength saves that are the top tier for them. Don't hesitate to have creatures, traps, or environmental elements that force dexterity saving throws for the paladin. Dexterity saving throws are where the rogue and ranger are built to shine. Finally, don't skimp on the AoE damage for the group of PCs. If all of the PCs are doing fine then the paladin has nothing else to do other than hit things. If the party is doing poorly, the paladin may need to switch gears and start doing the other thing they do well, battlefield medic.
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So I have a level 12 party that includes an Ancients paladin and balancing has become very hard to do.
She pretty much nukes anything I throw at them and I end up upping the stats on the enemies pretty much every fight or the rest of the party doesn’t get much time to shine. I’ve checked and checked and she’s just following RAW, and I don’t want to force nerf her and punish her for just playing her character, but it’s starting to make it a little unfair to the other players, and honestly a little hard for me as a DM to watch after spending so long planning epic boss fights.
Just from reading the Oath of the Ancients, I'm having trouble seeing why this type of character would, beyond all other 12th level characters, be able to "nuke anything you throw at them." What exactly is she doing at the start of each fight that allows her to nuke it? Without knowing any specifics, such as what else the party has in it, what she is doing to "nuke" things, what enemies you are putting up against them, and the like, it's hard to make a recommendation.
However, the most common reason why one character nuking every fight happens is this: not enough encounters per rest. The DMG/MM assume 6-8 encounters in between long rests, with several (2-3) in between each short rest. If you are setting it up so they can long rest after every single fight, or shot rest after every fight and long rest after 2-3 fights, then you are asking for the players to be able to nuke things, paladin oath or not. The game assumes that the PCs will not have every ability available to them across the entire party in every single fight. If they do have access to those, in every fight, then as a DM you have to crank the difficulty way up. A party of level 12s can probably take on a CR 20+ without a major issue, if it is the only fight of the day and they can use all their abilities. My level 5 party easily knocks out CR 8s. Again, if it is the only fight of the day. If they have to husband their resources, and know they are going to have several fights, resting is not going to be automatic, and they may not be able to retreat to a safe place to recover, they will hoard those spell slots and special abilities, and only use them when absolutely necessary, instead relying on their more mundane weapons and cantrips. There is a huge difference between the sorcerer who can hurl fireball at the start of every fight, and the sorcerer who is holding his level 3 spell slot "just in case" he needs it later in the day.
There are other reasons why this could be happening as well, though the most common is just not factoring in the # of encounters per long rest. For example, are most of your fights against one monster? If so, then the party outnumbers the monster and it will die really fast unless it is WAY above their power level, especially if that is compounded by being the only fight of the day. Also, if it's a single monster the paladin can unleash with her alpha strike and nuke the enemy without worrying she might need it later against someone else. If there are multiple threats, the paladin can't (or shouldn't be able to) nuke them all. Here you want to avoid the master villain with a bunch of weak minions. The Pally can still nuke the MV and leave the party to mop up the little ones. Rather, put in 2 or 3 reasonably equal enemies... so instead of a CR15 with 5 CR 3 minions... put in three CR 11s or something. This forces them to consider all three as threats, and if they focus on just one, the other two will take a toll.
Another common issue is that DMs focus too much on AC, hit points, and attack that do straight damage. You can cause absolute chaos in a party with spells that do no damage at all (Grease, etc.). And don't ignore the tactical situation -- ranged enemies across a flaming pit on platforms that separate them far enough to avoid AOE spells, shooting at the party while the party tries to close in enough to get their own attacks off, will nullify a lot of the "nuking" abilities. Bonus points if the enemies are firing something with longer range than the party has, like a ballista or a trebuchet. Ouch.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Since the character is playing a Paladin that might give you some in character means of toning their applied power down. Paladins have honor and a desire to protect the weak (usually.)
I had a similar problem back in 3.5 with a very optimized fighter. He was an absolute beast in combat, he used a spear and just wrecked everything he got close to. My solution was to put him in positions where he was fighting alone versus swarms, groups or something much more appropriate to his challenge level. His player was actually thrilled at the challenge and enjoyed being the “rear guard” of the group.
The way I handled splitting the party like that was having him and the rest of the group enter combat at the same time, and use the same initiative stack. So fighter went first, then the rogue and so on. It was just that the fighter was on a separate map and fighting something else than the main group.
I also would make it absolutely certain that he would have to fight that monster alone, once a block of stone fell down and separated him from the group and a squad of wights attacked the fighter, at the same time ghouls attacked the rest of the group. So it wasn’t like they had time to spare.
When it came time for big theatrical BBEG fights, the villain would hit the Fighter first, with the most devastating attacks they could. Because by that point the Big Bad knows who’s wearing the Badass Shoulderplates in the group.
I’d also say don’t be afraid to have your bad guys all target the paladin, it just makes sense from their point of view to target what is obviously the biggest threat. Web spell + five goblins with bows can whittle a lot of threats down quickly. Poison the arrows and it gets more interesting in a hurry.
Anyway I hope this helps you.
This.
I'd bet they're just smiting and smiting some more, but if they nuke everything in that first fight, then you throw a second one at them, they'll be all out of spell slots to smite with. At level 12, they've got 10 spell slots, at two attacks per round, they could probably burn through them all in 1-2 fights if they use them on every attack. Then you throw one more fight at them, and they won't be nuking anything. After a couple times, they'll probably get the message that they need to manage their resources. You need to make the players think there could always be another fight, and reserve some of their powers.
It depends a bit on what the other PCs are. In general paladins are:
Pick setups where the other PCs are better optimized. If the other PCs are martial classes, more encounters per day (and maybe some that are kitey ranged attackers) will help. If the other PCs are spellcasters, focus more on range and numbers.
In addition to more encounters between rests (excellent advice!), you should use more and more varied foes per encounter.
Paladins excel at taking down one foe. So, give them a choice of many foes..
Which one to focus on? If the paladin kills this one, that one over there will do horrible things to the captured townsfolk. If they go after that one, then this one will probably take down the party rogue. Choices, with meaningful consequences.
If they are in a boss fight against a big ugly, then make sure the big ugly has some medoum ugly meat shields, some ranged fighters to annoy the party's casters, and a couple of harassers (your ever-useful wolves do well here) running around and taking advantage of opportunities (for example, grappling and dragging away downed party members).
As a bonus, if you add lots of foes then the casters really get to enjoy their big spells (fireball).
Another vote for “make sure you’re running enough encounters per day.” PCs will steamroll literally anything given long rests in between. You should never run less than 3 fights a day—and if it’s only 3, they should all be Deadly.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Everything said so far has been great!
Plenty of long rests between combats, mostly just a big single target enemy to fight in combats, and mostly melee range damage with little to no environmental conditions in combats will all enhance what a paladin is good at. Skill challenges, in or out of combat, will give other PCs a chance to shine using their skills and/or spells. Flying enemies are always good. Or a multi level combat environment where the enemies are familiar with or very mobile themselves. "Smart" enemies that know to incapacitate the most damaging threat. Many groups of small creatures added to a fight. I'm thinking of minions from 4E. All normal stats, or enhanced damage stats, but only 1 hit point each. Lots of threat but no math to track. I had two paladins in a BG:DiA game I ran. I made up custom imps with 6 levels of wizard. They had burning hands, fireball, dispel magic, and counter spell. It worked well to shake up the group of PCs as they could be near the paladin for the aura but they are then in fireball formation. Imps can fly and turn invisible too so the paladin didn't really have the option to be the PC to handle them. Giving your big boss some PC class features will help some too. Rage is always effective and thematic. Battle master knock down effects will help to chip away at the paladin's hit points. Shield spell via some levels in sorcerer helps. Take away the paladin's action on their turn with something like a creature or ability the grapples and restrains on a hit. Pit traps. A mob of small but tough little creatures all rush the paladin, grapple them, and knock them prone. Even though paladins have great saving throws, general speaking, it's the charisma, maybe wisdom, and strength saves that are the top tier for them. Don't hesitate to have creatures, traps, or environmental elements that force dexterity saving throws for the paladin. Dexterity saving throws are where the rogue and ranger are built to shine. Finally, don't skimp on the AoE damage for the group of PCs. If all of the PCs are doing fine then the paladin has nothing else to do other than hit things. If the party is doing poorly, the paladin may need to switch gears and start doing the other thing they do well, battlefield medic.