So I've floated this idea on the forums before but never had a conclusive discussion about it. Soon I'll be able to (at long last) run DotMM, and I was wondering if people thought it would be do-able to start the players off in level 1 (as in the first level, not character level 1. They'll be level 5 don't worry) with no starting equipment and having them scrounge together supplies and weapons. I had this idea for a few reasons:
1. I noticed the first few levels put a lot of detail into loot that nobody would normally look twice at; old armor, pickaxe, rusted weapons, clothing, etc,, and I thought it would be cool to give the players a reason to make use of it and see how much they can make out of what they find. It makes me think of starting out in games like Fallout where at the very beginning all the junk you find is valuable and you gather whatever you can find to see what you can use for mods and such.
2. I feel like it would make a fun survival challenge when, instead of just saying you've got X rations which is plenty so don't worry, maybe you might have to consider risking a CON save on the enchanted table of rancid meat, or maybe you'll need to consider working with the denizens of a layer in exchange for supplies if you run low. And, I figure this will mostly be an early- level concern as the players will eventually come into their own with spells, resources, monster meat, etc looted from the dungeon as they go.
3. I feel like it should make the first few layers of the dungeon a little extra challenging without making it impossible. Martial characters can take goblin/bandits' weapons on level 1, spellcasters don't need material components for cantrips and can see what components they can scrounge for in the different environs, and martial characters might not even hate that cursed sword you can't let go of if it gives them a magic weapon for the purposes of overcoming resistance. And I feel like this challenge will eventually also peter out like the resources concern, as the players continue to scavenge resources from the dungeon around them, with the dungeon shaping them as they shape it.
4. I like to run Undermountain as more of an inter-dimensional prison as well as a dimense of lost and unwanted things that bleed into it from the material world, with Halaster as the one who shaped it, who was exiled to it as both the warden and the first prisoner. I like to include neutral settlements of other prisoners through some of the upper levels where it's easier to keep the monsters and the various factions at bay and ek out an existence, the the players will have opportunities to trade with these settlements for resources and even get quests from some of them. That way, starting out with nothing gives them more of a reason to interact with the world around them, since Undermountain *is* the world and there's no way out.
5. DotMM is a pretty harsh adventure, with intellect devourers and some loot that kills you on the first level, so I thought it might be neat to embrace that and be a bit of a d*ck, as long as the players are on board. I definitely want to have the session 0 conversation about difficulty level, and how death is very much on the table should the players get in over their heads. That said, if I notice the supplies thing being too much of a sore spot I might have them "stumble upon" some lost supply caches.
What do people think? Does this sound fun or is it doomed to failure?
It'll certainly be hard but I think it could be a lot of fun if your players are into challenging adventures. I think you've got a good idea doing a session 0 to do a pulse check on the group. Will also be important that you have some experienced players to guide any new people along (ex: just because it moves doesn't mean you have to kill it...best to leave the shield guardians alone instead of engaging if you've got no weapons)
How are you thinking of kicking this off? You all awake with amnesia?
I was thinking instead of amnesia I'd just have the players come up with what it was they were arrested for/why someone in power might be mad enough with them to exile them from the world.
I'll give them some vague background about how the world outside that has access to the Undermountain portal is kind of tyrannical so a good character can still end up in prison for getting on the wrong side of a corrupt regent, or stealing from the rich to give to the poor, that kind of thing. Or, you can just say you're an assassin who got caught assassining cause you really like assassining. I'm not making a ton of moral assumptions about the players haha.
So I've floated this idea on the forums before but never had a conclusive discussion about it. Soon I'll be able to (at long last) run DotMM, and I was wondering if people thought it would be do-able to start the players off in level 1 (as in the first level, not character level 1. They'll be level 5 don't worry) with no starting equipment and having them scrounge together supplies and weapons.
Be prepared to do some encounter nerfing on the fly. Stripping equipment will impact some classes a lot harder than others -- a monk might not care much, but a low-DEX fighter who relies on their armor for a decent AC is suddenly taking a lot more hits than they're "supposed" to at level 5. Are you a stickler for spell components/foci? Then how limited is the spell selection going to be for the casters until they find something to cover the M in VSM?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you have low dex fighter or paladin, you could 'cheat' a little bit by letting them get some low value heavy armor at the start like, ringmail or something. That'll mean they aren't totally defenseless but will still make getting proper armor feel significant.
So I've floated this idea on the forums before but never had a conclusive discussion about it. Soon I'll be able to (at long last) run DotMM, and I was wondering if people thought it would be do-able to start the players off in level 1 (as in the first level, not character level 1. They'll be level 5 don't worry) with no starting equipment and having them scrounge together supplies and weapons.
Be prepared to do some encounter nerfing on the fly. Stripping equipment will impact some classes a lot harder than others -- a monk might not care much, but a low-DEX fighter who relies on their armor for a decent AC is suddenly taking a lot more hits than they're "supposed" to at level 5. Are you a stickler for spell components/foci? Then how limited is the spell selection going to be for the casters until they find something to cover the M in VSM?
I do kinda want to be a bit of a stickler about components, but I will let players search the area around them and see what they can dash together, give them that cool feeling like they're MacGyver-ing their spells together. Like, if all you need for a spell is sand or something, there's plenty of that scattered around. If you need fleece or cotton, yeah tear off a piece of your tunic or something. If you need iron filings that might be some extra work but during a short or long rest you could grind a small pit of scrap metal, that kind of thing. That way, even just finding junk feels rewarding, and players are encouraged to creatively interact with the environment. And, if you find a wand or other focus, then they'll feel like they just won the freaking lottery.
The only thing I'm iffy about is spellbooks. Wizards can't cast spells other than cantrips without a spellbook, and if I were sending a wizard to jail I would definitely take theirs away, and I know you can find spellbooks throughout the dungeon and there's rules about how to replace a lost spellbook, BUT I still wonder if having a wizard player start without their spellbook might be too harsh? Idk, maybe if anyone feels like playing a wizard I'll warn them that there might be unexpected drawbacks at first, but beneficial opportunities later (finding spellbooks and expanding your spell list).
*edit* for spell components, there's also the goblin market on level 2 where I'm sure they have a lot of component items for sale/trade, so level 1 might be the only one that's an extra challenge for them.
@CharlesThePlant I did exactly this, and so far it has worked out excellent. The intro scene opened up in the Yawning Portal with the PCs striped of gear, with just basic clothes on their back. They were being accosted by a gang of thugs demanding the PCs repay their debts. The PCs had built their level 5 characters in a session 0 within DnDBeyond, and in the days between that and the start of the adventure I stripped their characters of all their possessions other than basic clothes. There was a humorous moment of shock when the PCs asked the thugs how much they owed (something not too excessive like 250GP) and the PCs immediately went to their inventories to tally up what gold/gear they had from character creation to pay off the debt only to find they had next to nothing in their inventories.
A little RP and a Skill Challenge (a la 4e) they are being shoved back into the Yawning Portal (no chair ride down for them - though I did retcon the sandy floor at the bottom to be like the road Neo falls onto during his failed "Jump" program experience - so no damage there). For 5 PCs, a dagger, a shortsword, and in an epic feat of nat 20's and RP the sorceress was able to grab her arcane focus were all the group had as they forcibly entered Level 1.
We are 6 sessions in and the PCs are loving it. We are all veteran players, and actually having to worry about food, water, spell casting materials, and ammo has been super enjoyable - albeit rather hectic and chaotic at times. Mundane sort of "meh" common magic items are super useful when you have nothing.
PCs: wild magic sorceress, gloomstalker ranger, oath of the open sea paladin, thief rogue, college of eloquence bard.
You could have the party arrested as criminals and dumped into the dungeon through the yawning portal entrance with orders that they not be allowed to exit that way and guards posted to ensure it happens. It doesn't really matter whether they actually committed a crime.
However, although some classes may be able to find equipment, others won't unless the DM takes care to add appropriate items. A big one would be material components and spellcasting focus for casters as well as acquiring spells when they level up. A lot of the things some characters will need may not be in the dungeon as written and it would be tougher on some characters than others.
The DM might also need to boost the number of magic items since if I recall they can be a bit sparse in DotMM just like many of the other newer WOTC content.
You could have the party arrested as criminals and dumped into the dungeon through the yawning portal entrance with orders that they not be allowed to exit that way and guards posted to ensure it happens. It doesn't really matter whether they actually committed a crime.
However, although some classes may be able to find equipment, others won't unless the DM takes care to add appropriate items. A big one would be material components and spellcasting focus for casters as well as acquiring spells when they level up. A lot of the things some characters will need may not be in the dungeon as written and it would be tougher on some characters than others.
I played a wizard in 3.5 and my DM back then made me look for and harvest certain components that I had to keep track of on my character sheet, which I found really fun. Anytime I found a catapillar chrysalis it was like Christmas because you needed them for Polymorph, which was even more powerful back then than it is now. I figure l'll adopt a similar system, where, until they find a focus, they can either tell me what they're looking for specifically and I can answer as to how likely it is to be found in the current environment, or they can just ask what can be found in their surrounding area and I can see from a list of spell components what makes sense.
So I've floated this idea on the forums before but never had a conclusive discussion about it. Soon I'll be able to (at long last) run DotMM, and I was wondering if people thought it would be do-able to start the players off in level 1 (as in the first level, not character level 1. They'll be level 5 don't worry) with no starting equipment and having them scrounge together supplies and weapons.
Be prepared to do some encounter nerfing on the fly. Stripping equipment will impact some classes a lot harder than others -- a monk might not care much, but a low-DEX fighter who relies on their armor for a decent AC is suddenly taking a lot more hits than they're "supposed" to at level 5. Are you a stickler for spell components/foci? Then how limited is the spell selection going to be for the casters until they find something to cover the M in VSM?
I do kinda want to be a bit of a stickler about components, but I will let players search the area around them and see what they can dash together, give them that cool feeling like they're MacGyver-ing their spells together. Like, if all you need for a spell is sand or something, there's plenty of that scattered around. If you need fleece or cotton, yeah tear off a piece of your tunic or something. If you need iron filings that might be some extra work but during a short or long rest you could grind a small pit of scrap metal, that kind of thing. That way, even just finding junk feels rewarding, and players are encouraged to creatively interact with the environment. And, if you find a wand or other focus, then they'll feel like they just won the freaking lottery.
The only thing I'm iffy about is spellbooks. Wizards can't cast spells other than cantrips without a spellbook, and if I were sending a wizard to jail I would definitely take theirs away, and I know you can find spellbooks throughout the dungeon and there's rules about how to replace a lost spellbook, BUT I still wonder if having a wizard player start without their spellbook might be too harsh? Idk, maybe if anyone feels like playing a wizard I'll warn them that there might be unexpected drawbacks at first, but beneficial opportunities later (finding spellbooks and expanding your spell list).
*edit* for spell components, there's also the goblin market on level 2 where I'm sure they have a lot of component items for sale/trade, so level 1 might be the only one that's an extra challenge for them.
The part I bolded isn't completely correct. A wizard with a focus or component pouch can cast levelled spells without a spellbook. What they can't do it is prepare different spells after a long rest or cast non-prepared rituals. Any wizard worth anything will always have some spells prepared
In a survival campaign like this you could play a Wizard with this restriction as long as you got a new spellbook fairly quickly.
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So I've floated this idea on the forums before but never had a conclusive discussion about it. Soon I'll be able to (at long last) run DotMM, and I was wondering if people thought it would be do-able to start the players off in level 1 (as in the first level, not character level 1. They'll be level 5 don't worry) with no starting equipment and having them scrounge together supplies and weapons. I had this idea for a few reasons:
1. I noticed the first few levels put a lot of detail into loot that nobody would normally look twice at; old armor, pickaxe, rusted weapons, clothing, etc,, and I thought it would be cool to give the players a reason to make use of it and see how much they can make out of what they find. It makes me think of starting out in games like Fallout where at the very beginning all the junk you find is valuable and you gather whatever you can find to see what you can use for mods and such.
2. I feel like it would make a fun survival challenge when, instead of just saying you've got X rations which is plenty so don't worry, maybe you might have to consider risking a CON save on the enchanted table of rancid meat, or maybe you'll need to consider working with the denizens of a layer in exchange for supplies if you run low. And, I figure this will mostly be an early- level concern as the players will eventually come into their own with spells, resources, monster meat, etc looted from the dungeon as they go.
3. I feel like it should make the first few layers of the dungeon a little extra challenging without making it impossible. Martial characters can take goblin/bandits' weapons on level 1, spellcasters don't need material components for cantrips and can see what components they can scrounge for in the different environs, and martial characters might not even hate that cursed sword you can't let go of if it gives them a magic weapon for the purposes of overcoming resistance. And I feel like this challenge will eventually also peter out like the resources concern, as the players continue to scavenge resources from the dungeon around them, with the dungeon shaping them as they shape it.
4. I like to run Undermountain as more of an inter-dimensional prison as well as a dimense of lost and unwanted things that bleed into it from the material world, with Halaster as the one who shaped it, who was exiled to it as both the warden and the first prisoner. I like to include neutral settlements of other prisoners through some of the upper levels where it's easier to keep the monsters and the various factions at bay and ek out an existence, the the players will have opportunities to trade with these settlements for resources and even get quests from some of them. That way, starting out with nothing gives them more of a reason to interact with the world around them, since Undermountain *is* the world and there's no way out.
5. DotMM is a pretty harsh adventure, with intellect devourers and some loot that kills you on the first level, so I thought it might be neat to embrace that and be a bit of a d*ck, as long as the players are on board. I definitely want to have the session 0 conversation about difficulty level, and how death is very much on the table should the players get in over their heads. That said, if I notice the supplies thing being too much of a sore spot I might have them "stumble upon" some lost supply caches.
What do people think? Does this sound fun or is it doomed to failure?
It'll certainly be hard but I think it could be a lot of fun if your players are into challenging adventures. I think you've got a good idea doing a session 0 to do a pulse check on the group. Will also be important that you have some experienced players to guide any new people along (ex: just because it moves doesn't mean you have to kill it...best to leave the shield guardians alone instead of engaging if you've got no weapons)
How are you thinking of kicking this off? You all awake with amnesia?
I was thinking instead of amnesia I'd just have the players come up with what it was they were arrested for/why someone in power might be mad enough with them to exile them from the world.
I'll give them some vague background about how the world outside that has access to the Undermountain portal is kind of tyrannical so a good character can still end up in prison for getting on the wrong side of a corrupt regent, or stealing from the rich to give to the poor, that kind of thing. Or, you can just say you're an assassin who got caught assassining cause you really like assassining. I'm not making a ton of moral assumptions about the players haha.
That sound like a fun survival campaign. Great idea and good luck running it!
p.s. sorry I don’t have any actual feedback.
Anything is edible if you try hard enough!
I am a swimmer. If you see me running, you should run too, because it means something horrible is chasing me.
Be prepared to do some encounter nerfing on the fly. Stripping equipment will impact some classes a lot harder than others -- a monk might not care much, but a low-DEX fighter who relies on their armor for a decent AC is suddenly taking a lot more hits than they're "supposed" to at level 5. Are you a stickler for spell components/foci? Then how limited is the spell selection going to be for the casters until they find something to cover the M in VSM?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yeah do it! And then tell us how it goes?
If you have low dex fighter or paladin, you could 'cheat' a little bit by letting them get some low value heavy armor at the start like, ringmail or something. That'll mean they aren't totally defenseless but will still make getting proper armor feel significant.
I do kinda want to be a bit of a stickler about components, but I will let players search the area around them and see what they can dash together, give them that cool feeling like they're MacGyver-ing their spells together. Like, if all you need for a spell is sand or something, there's plenty of that scattered around. If you need fleece or cotton, yeah tear off a piece of your tunic or something. If you need iron filings that might be some extra work but during a short or long rest you could grind a small pit of scrap metal, that kind of thing. That way, even just finding junk feels rewarding, and players are encouraged to creatively interact with the environment. And, if you find a wand or other focus, then they'll feel like they just won the freaking lottery.
The only thing I'm iffy about is spellbooks. Wizards can't cast spells other than cantrips without a spellbook, and if I were sending a wizard to jail I would definitely take theirs away, and I know you can find spellbooks throughout the dungeon and there's rules about how to replace a lost spellbook, BUT I still wonder if having a wizard player start without their spellbook might be too harsh? Idk, maybe if anyone feels like playing a wizard I'll warn them that there might be unexpected drawbacks at first, but beneficial opportunities later (finding spellbooks and expanding your spell list).
*edit* for spell components, there's also the goblin market on level 2 where I'm sure they have a lot of component items for sale/trade, so level 1 might be the only one that's an extra challenge for them.
@CharlesThePlant
I did exactly this, and so far it has worked out excellent. The intro scene opened up in the Yawning Portal with the PCs striped of gear, with just basic clothes on their back. They were being accosted by a gang of thugs demanding the PCs repay their debts. The PCs had built their level 5 characters in a session 0 within DnDBeyond, and in the days between that and the start of the adventure I stripped their characters of all their possessions other than basic clothes. There was a humorous moment of shock when the PCs asked the thugs how much they owed (something not too excessive like 250GP) and the PCs immediately went to their inventories to tally up what gold/gear they had from character creation to pay off the debt only to find they had next to nothing in their inventories.
A little RP and a Skill Challenge (a la 4e) they are being shoved back into the Yawning Portal (no chair ride down for them - though I did retcon the sandy floor at the bottom to be like the road Neo falls onto during his failed "Jump" program experience - so no damage there). For 5 PCs, a dagger, a shortsword, and in an epic feat of nat 20's and RP the sorceress was able to grab her arcane focus were all the group had as they forcibly entered Level 1.
We are 6 sessions in and the PCs are loving it. We are all veteran players, and actually having to worry about food, water, spell casting materials, and ammo has been super enjoyable - albeit rather hectic and chaotic at times. Mundane sort of "meh" common magic items are super useful when you have nothing.
PCs: wild magic sorceress, gloomstalker ranger, oath of the open sea paladin, thief rogue, college of eloquence bard.
It could work but you will need to adjust things.
You could have the party arrested as criminals and dumped into the dungeon through the yawning portal entrance with orders that they not be allowed to exit that way and guards posted to ensure it happens. It doesn't really matter whether they actually committed a crime.
However, although some classes may be able to find equipment, others won't unless the DM takes care to add appropriate items. A big one would be material components and spellcasting focus for casters as well as acquiring spells when they level up. A lot of the things some characters will need may not be in the dungeon as written and it would be tougher on some characters than others.
The DM might also need to boost the number of magic items since if I recall they can be a bit sparse in DotMM just like many of the other newer WOTC content.
I played a wizard in 3.5 and my DM back then made me look for and harvest certain components that I had to keep track of on my character sheet, which I found really fun. Anytime I found a catapillar chrysalis it was like Christmas because you needed them for Polymorph, which was even more powerful back then than it is now. I figure l'll adopt a similar system, where, until they find a focus, they can either tell me what they're looking for specifically and I can answer as to how likely it is to be found in the current environment, or they can just ask what can be found in their surrounding area and I can see from a list of spell components what makes sense.
The part I bolded isn't completely correct. A wizard with a focus or component pouch can cast levelled spells without a spellbook. What they can't do it is prepare different spells after a long rest or cast non-prepared rituals. Any wizard worth anything will always have some spells prepared
In a survival campaign like this you could play a Wizard with this restriction as long as you got a new spellbook fairly quickly.