There have been multiple threads about Action Economy. This is yet another one, proving the same point. Lesson Learned: Even a buffed BBEG MUST have minions
I had my guys face a Young Black Dragon today. The group was for all intents and purposes five 7th level chars. The YBD was not your typical Young dragon. It had full 7th level Divine Soul Sorcerer abilities, with Quicken MetaMagic and Twin, plus Legendary Actions as follows:
So, in essence, with Quicken, the YBD had 4 attacks per round (used Inflict Wounds), plus up to 3 cantrips as LA's. It also had Shield and Counterspell available as potential Reaction Spells. It did use both once. The YBD also had 172 HP, a buff over the standard 142. Bottom line, the fight was over in 3 turns. One char went down, and was brought back by a Cleric with Healing Word, and that char then did the coup de grace.
The killer move: The Wizard successfully cast Slow on the Dragon, wiping out its Reactions and multiple attacks for one full round.
BTW, the group had fought the dragon in another chamber, on another day, when the dragon was in humanoid form, and the dragon had 6 minions, but the group mowed down that group, with the dragon only morphing into dragon form at the tail end of the fight, and escaping.
In my experience, if you want to have a BBEG face the party solo (as dragons are so often want to do), make sure it's legendary actions give it the ability to effect several party members with debuffs in addition to damage, and give itself mobility.
So in the example of a black dragon, maybe for 2 legendary actions in causes a localized earthquake and deals some damage the whole party as well as knocking them prone. this lets the dragon hit the ranged characters as well as let it slow down the bruisers. You could also modify the wing attack of the older dragons giving the aforementioned effects in addition to moving a good distance.
You could also change the layout of the dragon's lair to better suit your needs. if your dragon lives in a swamp like many black dragons, maybe it has a series of underground tunnels connecting several water pools around the lair allowing it to dive into one and hide for a round to plan its next move or just quickly move to the distant wizard casually standing next to a pool and drag him/her under the water. Maybe the barbarian dives in after them and now has to deal with the penalties to movement and attacks that come with being underwater.
All in all the main way a single creature is going to survive a noticeable amount of time against any party is going to be splitting them up and sowing chaos in their plans.
Sorry if this ran a little long lol. Hope I was able to help you out.
I think like Farling said, you need different Legendary actions. I always, always give 1 legendary action that allows repositioning without provoking an AOO. Something like Misty Step would work perfectly (my level 4 legendary mini-boss gave them fits with that one, bamfing once a round on their turns and getting out of melee range, or into it if he so chose).
It also might be nice to give them some sort of self-heal... I would maybe do 1 LA cantrip, 2 LA bamf, 3 LA self-heal. It can either cantrip/bamf on a round, or self-heal. If you do that make it a nice self-heal, not some chintzy thing like 1d6. Give it a good one. Make it easy -- "Casts Cure Wounds on self at 4th level, doesn't cost a spell slot, 4d8 healing." Bamf would just be "casts misty step without using a spell slot", and of course, cantrips are cantrips.
You might have to play with the LA costs of those.. maybe 3 LA for the self heal is too much... let it cantrip + self heal or cantrip + bamf. Or maybe let it do all 3 if you think the party will be too tough otherwise.
EDIT:
Also, give it at least one bonus action that is nice, such as a "Dragon Roar" that can cast fear on a target or something...
And give it Reactions to stuff. Not just the typical one but like.. Reaction to taking more than 10 damage in a single blow, that kind of thing. Someone hits it HARD, and WHAM, the dragon hits back with something nasty.
Also, about casting slow... this is why Legendary creatures get Leg saves... The dragon chooses to save this time instead of fail the save. He should be able to do that 2-3 times. Be judicious on when you pull that one out. Don't use it to save vs. damage, use it to save vs. save-or-suck spells like slow.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
In general any solo monster needs to be basically immune to cc effects. I would probably give legendaries a default LA that allows breaking free of spells (and other effects like stun) to make it so control effects aren't useless (you cost it one or more LAs) but not making the monster useless. For example:
one LA: Attempt to break free of an effect that does not include being Incapacitated.
two LA: Attempt to break free of a condition, spell, or other effect. Usable even if incapacitated, unless at 0 hp.
All good points folks. All ideas that I must learn from, and incorporate into future BBEG's. BTW, this is the 2nd dragon my group has encountered, at least in combat. The first was a Wyrmling Red, which they killed relatively easily. However, Nightwing, the mother of that Wyrmling, saw the group land the death blow, and is now hunting them in revenge.....
Just some points. Yeah, I screwed up not using Counterspell earlier. I did use it in the last turn when the Wizard tried to upcast a Lightning Bolt. But the effects of Slow are so devastating, that should have been countered, or an LR used against them. And the dragon did have Misty Step as a spell available, so could have burned all LA points to move 30 feet. But ultimately, the dragon was underpowered, compared to the group size, at least when it came to Action Economy.
The LA"s WILL be stronger going forward on my BBEG's, and LR's are clearly going to be necessary.
Finally, focusing on the dragon theme (my guys WILL face increasingly more, as they are key to my overall plot arch), I must remember I don't have to constrict myself to any stat bloc in the MM or any other source book. I like to believe I am a RAW DM, but no way that applies to monsters. 2nd edition had it right. 8 ages of dragons makes a whole lot more sense. I have Green Dragon encounter in mind (they will have to deal with it to find the Command Word to unlock a key feature of the Artifact one is carrying (right now they think it is a sentient +1 weapon that does well against Dragons), and while an Adult Green is too much for them, something in between a Young and Adult would be reasonable, with LA's, LR's, and Lair Actions.
Various BBEG's in their future include more Dragon's, a Flind (definitely with minions), various Undead Warlocks, Death Clerics, and an Aboleth. Oh, and they may be traveling to an Infernal Plane to collect the piece of another artifact (anyone remember the Rod of 7 parts?). All will be vastly upgraded from any RAW based stat bloc.
Lastly, wrt to Lyxen's comment about 3 turns and 1 down being reasonable, I should qualify. This was to be the biggest fight they have ever faced, and the ONLY one they were to face that day. They had already driven the YBD from one chamber with its minions, and it had fled to its last refuge, a lair only accessible by underwater. (One of the Cleric's burned his 4th level spell slots on Control Water, an incredibly powerful spell, to create a moving bubble the group was in). They knew it was going to be a brutal fight, and the only one of the day, and they had a full complement of HP and spell slots (save the one burned on Control Water). In my opinion, that fight should have been longer, with far more damage inflicted on the players. I wanted that fight to be epic, with the players surviving by the barest of margins. Keep in mind, 2 of the players have Revivify. As long as one was alive at the end, and had the spell slots left, no one is Dead Dead, just Mostly Dead. Instead, what came out of it is that Paladin's are OP, especially when they roll a 20 and then Divine Smite (yeah, that happened too).
For dragons... Coleville has some pretty cool variants on dragons in his Strongholds and Followers book... if you want to try some new ones.
Thanks. I will look it up. Given that I am trying to match the magical abilities of my dragons to some theme, I figure my Green Dragon will focus on Druid spells and subclasses. If you look at its published lair actions, it screams "I am a Druid".
In general any solo monster needs to be basically immune to cc effects.
That is really not fair to some players. Legendary resistance is limited in its use and it's perfect for that purpose. You might want to do more for specific solo monsters, but systematically giving them complete immunity on principle is too much in my view.
Which is why I specified removing effects at a cost in LAs, rather than blanket immunity. Though in the case of a sorcerer dragon being slowed, it can cast quickened dispel magic and, if successful, take the rest of its turn as normal. There are no solutions to CC abilities on bosses that don't extensively nerf those abilities, you just want to make them effective enough to not be a total waste to use.
In general any solo monster needs to be basically immune to cc effects.
That is really not fair to some players. Legendary resistance is limited in its use and it's perfect for that purpose. You might want to do more for specific solo monsters, but systematically giving them complete immunity on principle is too much in my view.
Which is why I specified removing effects at a cost in LAs, rather than blanket immunity. Though in the case of a sorcerer dragon being slowed, it can cast quickened dispel magic and, if successful, take the rest of its turn as normal. There are no solutions to CC abilities on bosses that don't extensively nerf those abilities, you just want to make them effective enough to not be a total waste to use.
Arghhhh....I never even considered Quickening Dispel Magic.
I almost always give solo bosses lair actions, which improve their survivability by a lot. The lair actions don't do straight, damage, instead, they debuff the party so the boss can dish out damage on its turn. For ranged bosses especially, I use movement-reducing effects such as being grappled, restrained, or knocked prone.
For legendary actions, I always give a boss one that does straight damage, one allows the movement without opportunity attacks, and one that buffs them or debuffs their enemies.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
There have been multiple threads about Action Economy. This is yet another one, proving the same point. Lesson Learned: Even a buffed BBEG MUST have minions
I had my guys face a Young Black Dragon today. The group was for all intents and purposes five 7th level chars. The YBD was not your typical Young dragon. It had full 7th level Divine Soul Sorcerer abilities, with Quicken MetaMagic and Twin, plus Legendary Actions as follows:
3 Legendary Action Points:
1 Point = Cantrip
2 Points = 1st Level Spell
3 Points = 2nd level Spell
So, in essence, with Quicken, the YBD had 4 attacks per round (used Inflict Wounds), plus up to 3 cantrips as LA's. It also had Shield and Counterspell available as potential Reaction Spells. It did use both once. The YBD also had 172 HP, a buff over the standard 142. Bottom line, the fight was over in 3 turns. One char went down, and was brought back by a Cleric with Healing Word, and that char then did the coup de grace.
The killer move: The Wizard successfully cast Slow on the Dragon, wiping out its Reactions and multiple attacks for one full round.
BTW, the group had fought the dragon in another chamber, on another day, when the dragon was in humanoid form, and the dragon had 6 minions, but the group mowed down that group, with the dragon only morphing into dragon form at the tail end of the fight, and escaping.
Cantrip, 1st or 2nd level spells aren't going to do a lot against a party of 7th level characters. Other legendary actions are usually more potent.
But I do agree that a single creature will never survive long at all against a party of 4+ adventurers.
In my experience, if you want to have a BBEG face the party solo (as dragons are so often want to do), make sure it's legendary actions give it the ability to effect several party members with debuffs in addition to damage, and give itself mobility.
So in the example of a black dragon, maybe for 2 legendary actions in causes a localized earthquake and deals some damage the whole party as well as knocking them prone. this lets the dragon hit the ranged characters as well as let it slow down the bruisers. You could also modify the wing attack of the older dragons giving the aforementioned effects in addition to moving a good distance.
You could also change the layout of the dragon's lair to better suit your needs. if your dragon lives in a swamp like many black dragons, maybe it has a series of underground tunnels connecting several water pools around the lair allowing it to dive into one and hide for a round to plan its next move or just quickly move to the distant wizard casually standing next to a pool and drag him/her under the water. Maybe the barbarian dives in after them and now has to deal with the penalties to movement and attacks that come with being underwater.
All in all the main way a single creature is going to survive a noticeable amount of time against any party is going to be splitting them up and sowing chaos in their plans.
Sorry if this ran a little long lol. Hope I was able to help you out.
I think like Farling said, you need different Legendary actions. I always, always give 1 legendary action that allows repositioning without provoking an AOO. Something like Misty Step would work perfectly (my level 4 legendary mini-boss gave them fits with that one, bamfing once a round on their turns and getting out of melee range, or into it if he so chose).
It also might be nice to give them some sort of self-heal... I would maybe do 1 LA cantrip, 2 LA bamf, 3 LA self-heal. It can either cantrip/bamf on a round, or self-heal. If you do that make it a nice self-heal, not some chintzy thing like 1d6. Give it a good one. Make it easy -- "Casts Cure Wounds on self at 4th level, doesn't cost a spell slot, 4d8 healing." Bamf would just be "casts misty step without using a spell slot", and of course, cantrips are cantrips.
You might have to play with the LA costs of those.. maybe 3 LA for the self heal is too much... let it cantrip + self heal or cantrip + bamf. Or maybe let it do all 3 if you think the party will be too tough otherwise.
EDIT:
Also, give it at least one bonus action that is nice, such as a "Dragon Roar" that can cast fear on a target or something...
And give it Reactions to stuff. Not just the typical one but like.. Reaction to taking more than 10 damage in a single blow, that kind of thing. Someone hits it HARD, and WHAM, the dragon hits back with something nasty.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Also, about casting slow... this is why Legendary creatures get Leg saves... The dragon chooses to save this time instead of fail the save. He should be able to do that 2-3 times. Be judicious on when you pull that one out. Don't use it to save vs. damage, use it to save vs. save-or-suck spells like slow.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
In general any solo monster needs to be basically immune to cc effects. I would probably give legendaries a default LA that allows breaking free of spells (and other effects like stun) to make it so control effects aren't useless (you cost it one or more LAs) but not making the monster useless. For example:
what is a good name for a Aarakocra Wizard?
All good points folks. All ideas that I must learn from, and incorporate into future BBEG's. BTW, this is the 2nd dragon my group has encountered, at least in combat. The first was a Wyrmling Red, which they killed relatively easily. However, Nightwing, the mother of that Wyrmling, saw the group land the death blow, and is now hunting them in revenge.....
Just some points. Yeah, I screwed up not using Counterspell earlier. I did use it in the last turn when the Wizard tried to upcast a Lightning Bolt. But the effects of Slow are so devastating, that should have been countered, or an LR used against them. And the dragon did have Misty Step as a spell available, so could have burned all LA points to move 30 feet. But ultimately, the dragon was underpowered, compared to the group size, at least when it came to Action Economy.
The LA"s WILL be stronger going forward on my BBEG's, and LR's are clearly going to be necessary.
Finally, focusing on the dragon theme (my guys WILL face increasingly more, as they are key to my overall plot arch), I must remember I don't have to constrict myself to any stat bloc in the MM or any other source book. I like to believe I am a RAW DM, but no way that applies to monsters. 2nd edition had it right. 8 ages of dragons makes a whole lot more sense. I have Green Dragon encounter in mind (they will have to deal with it to find the Command Word to unlock a key feature of the Artifact one is carrying (right now they think it is a sentient +1 weapon that does well against Dragons), and while an Adult Green is too much for them, something in between a Young and Adult would be reasonable, with LA's, LR's, and Lair Actions.
Various BBEG's in their future include more Dragon's, a Flind (definitely with minions), various Undead Warlocks, Death Clerics, and an Aboleth. Oh, and they may be traveling to an Infernal Plane to collect the piece of another artifact (anyone remember the Rod of 7 parts?). All will be vastly upgraded from any RAW based stat bloc.
Lastly, wrt to Lyxen's comment about 3 turns and 1 down being reasonable, I should qualify. This was to be the biggest fight they have ever faced, and the ONLY one they were to face that day. They had already driven the YBD from one chamber with its minions, and it had fled to its last refuge, a lair only accessible by underwater. (One of the Cleric's burned his 4th level spell slots on Control Water, an incredibly powerful spell, to create a moving bubble the group was in). They knew it was going to be a brutal fight, and the only one of the day, and they had a full complement of HP and spell slots (save the one burned on Control Water). In my opinion, that fight should have been longer, with far more damage inflicted on the players. I wanted that fight to be epic, with the players surviving by the barest of margins. Keep in mind, 2 of the players have Revivify. As long as one was alive at the end, and had the spell slots left, no one is Dead Dead, just Mostly Dead. Instead, what came out of it is that Paladin's are OP, especially when they roll a 20 and then Divine Smite (yeah, that happened too).
For dragons... Coleville has some pretty cool variants on dragons in his Strongholds and Followers book... if you want to try some new ones.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Thanks. I will look it up. Given that I am trying to match the magical abilities of my dragons to some theme, I figure my Green Dragon will focus on Druid spells and subclasses. If you look at its published lair actions, it screams "I am a Druid".
I would kill to watch as you have the dragon bellow, after being called a dragon, "I AM A DRUID!!!"
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Which is why I specified removing effects at a cost in LAs, rather than blanket immunity. Though in the case of a sorcerer dragon being slowed, it can cast quickened dispel magic and, if successful, take the rest of its turn as normal. There are no solutions to CC abilities on bosses that don't extensively nerf those abilities, you just want to make them effective enough to not be a total waste to use.
I laughed my drink through my nose when I read this...thanks.
My work here is done.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Arghhhh....I never even considered Quickening Dispel Magic.
I almost always give solo bosses lair actions, which improve their survivability by a lot. The lair actions don't do straight, damage, instead, they debuff the party so the boss can dish out damage on its turn. For ranged bosses especially, I use movement-reducing effects such as being grappled, restrained, or knocked prone.
For legendary actions, I always give a boss one that does straight damage, one allows the movement without opportunity attacks, and one that buffs them or debuffs their enemies.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Homebrew (Mostly Outdated): Magic Items, Monsters, Spells, Subclasses
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.