Hey guys, been theory-crafting a build that I'm quite fond of, but the longer I try to hammer it down, the more messy, MAD, and late-tier online it becomes. Was hoping for some help sorting out options/thinking of new options as choice-paralysis is becoming a bit of a problem.
The overall aim, is to make a character who in concept, is the abandoned, doomed to die soldier who's whole existence is to "hold the line." Kind of Dragon Age "Legion of the Dead" style for those that understand the reference. Mechanically, my goal is to have three abilities, that all prohibit enemy movement, but do so in three different ways so that I can still do my job if the enemy has some kind of specific tricks that work around mine.
So ended up deciding that Hexblade 4/Divine Soul Sorc 5/Oath of Conquest Pal 11 with Polearm Master/Sentinel/Spirit Guardians/Oath of Conquest stuff would check all my boxes and be pretty SAD, but I also see no good way to make this monstrosity come fully online before like... level 16. So, looking for advice to make this more than dead weight between levels 5-15, or just a different direction to go entirely to accomplish my general mechanical goals.
Realize this might be asking too much out of one character, but 3 tricks to make the enemy have to face me instead of the backlines just seemed like the right amount for making a really sticky tank.
I think you have to prioritize what you want most from the build. You also have a lot of feats so you really need to make it SAD.
I think the one thing that will have to wait the longest is spirit guardians. In some ways it sounds like the least essential element and it is one that will take the longest to come online.
Also, take my comments with a grain of salt since how I see it playing out and how you want to play it might be entirely different. This includes how you want to play it an rebuild it during tier 1.
Considerations
Are you going PAM with a spear/quarterstaff and a shield or using a two handed reach weapon like a glaive? AC is much better with the shield. You can also apply hexwarrior to one handed weapons but not two handed ones.
You can either take paladin to 6/7 for the aura or to 11 for improved divine smite. Try to get strength boosting items and use ASI to boost charisma. Start variant human and take PAM. Gauntlets of Ogre Power (Tier 1) and Belt of Fire Giant strength (Tier 3) are both available and make great magic items even for a SAD paladin. If you get the gauntlets in tier 1 you can even rebuild to have 13 strength since you won't need it for heavy armor.
If you really want spirit guardians, the earliest you can manage it would be level 12. 6 paladin/1 hexblade/5 sorcerer.
Anyway, even without all the tricks your character won't be deadweight between 5-15.
I am playing a similar character but using magic items to boost strength. In my case likely variant human devotion 11/celestial warlock 2/divine soul 7 - PAM + 2xASI to charisma + Sentinel though I may juggle the levels around to get another ASI if I think I need it. So far the character is level 5, PAM, 18 charisma, gauntlets of ogre power using a spear+shield with the dueling fighting style. Seems to work pretty well.
Alternatively, Oath of the Crown paladin has access to spirit guardians at level 9, allowing for 2 feats and 1 extra if you are a human. They also have an ability Champion Challenge that forces creatures to stay within 30 feet of the paladin, with spirit guardians at a radius of 15 feet you become difficult terrain and they either need to range attack you and risk being picked off by your teammates or take hits from spirit guardians to close melee with you. It's not the strongest paladin subclass but it's pretty effective. The benefit is that Champion Challenge is a channel divinity ability and not a charmed effect or a fear effect like the oath of conquests fears, meaning no creatures who fail the wisdom save have a way of resisting it, even legendary creatures that fail would need to burn a legendary resistance to get free. Combined with your PA Mastery and Sentinel you have an extra feat as a human to go ASI or cherry pick what you want. A tenet of Oath of the Crown is also civilization, which seems to me to thematically fit the "last standing, holding the line" type character.
Of note this build comes partially online at level 3 when you gain access to Command and Compelled Duel, combined with human extra feat for sentinel or PAM, giving you ~2 - 3 ways to impede movement or force creatures to interact with you. I use it with Shield Master and shoving to great effect personally (just because I wanted to switch up the PAM style characters.)
I think you have to prioritize what you want most from the build. You also have a lot of feats so you really need to make it SAD.
I think the one thing that will have to wait the longest is spirit guardians. In some ways it sounds like the least essential element and it is one that will take the longest to come online.
Also, take my comments with a grain of salt since how I see it playing out and how you want to play it might be entirely different. This includes how you want to play it an rebuild it during tier 1.
Considerations
Are you going PAM with a spear/quarterstaff and a shield or using a two handed reach weapon like a glaive? AC is much better with the shield. You can also apply hexwarrior to one handed weapons but not two handed ones.
You can either take paladin to 6/7 for the aura or to 11 for improved divine smite. Try to get strength boosting items and use ASI to boost charisma. Start variant human and take PAM. Gauntlets of Ogre Power (Tier 1) and Belt of Fire Giant strength (Tier 3) are both available and make great magic items even for a SAD paladin. If you get the gauntlets in tier 1 you can even rebuild to have 13 strength since you won't need it for heavy armor.
If you really want spirit guardians, the earliest you can manage it would be level 12. 6 paladin/1 hexblade/5 sorcerer.
Anyway, even without all the tricks your character won't be deadweight between 5-15.
I am playing a similar character but using magic items to boost strength. In my case likely variant human devotion 11/celestial warlock 2/divine soul 7 - PAM + 2xASI to charisma + Sentinel though I may juggle the levels around to get another ASI if I think I need it. So far the character is level 5, PAM, 18 charisma, gauntlets of ogre power using a spear+shield with the dueling fighting style. Seems to work pretty well.
Initially, I was thinking glaive, as it'd increase my threat range more and keep my area control higher with Sentinel's literal stopping power, and with the PAM AoO, could in theory keep some attacks from even getting in range, thus reducing my need for high AC. But, that did require hitting Level 3 in Warlock early to get Pact of the Blade to extend Hexblade's effects to it... and then trying to get that early pushed back a lot of other things, and ultimately you see where this conundrum led me. So, may well just go for the shield and quarterstaff combo and accept that while the AoO range is decreased, high AC helps against both melee and ranged attacks. Also considered potentially starting Sorcerer and just accepting that I'd effectively switch roles the longer into the build I went, that does also close off heavy armor, which then lowers the max AC again, and leaves more holes to exploit, especially if I don't go glaive.
I did feel that Spirit Guardians was actually one of the most critical though. It's big radius, high damage (compared to Oath of Conquest's Aura) and having no saves would make it my first and best line of defense against most anything, as the fear aura and PAM+Sentinel shutdown any dogmatic enough to try and push through irregardless of their halved speed. But it is certainly one of the most difficult to get myself to, and clearly this wasn't your assessment. Could I ask why you favor the other two options over Spirit Guardians?
Regardless I think I'll end up pushing for Spirit Guardians back if I go with this build idea as it does cause a fair number of issues trying to get it early.
Alternatively, Oath of the Crown paladin has access to spirit guardians at level 9, allowing for 2 feats and 1 extra if you are a human. They also have an ability Champion Challenge that forces creatures to stay within 30 feet of the paladin, with spirit guardians at a radius of 15 feet you become difficult terrain and they either need to range attack you and risk being picked off by your teammates or take hits from spirit guardians to close melee with you. It's not the strongest paladin subclass but it's pretty effective. The benefit is that Champion Challenge is a channel divinity ability and not a charmed effect or a fear effect like the oath of conquests fears, meaning no creatures who fail the wisdom save have a way of resisting it, even legendary creatures that fail would need to burn a legendary resistance to get free. Combined with your PA Mastery and Sentinel you have an extra feat as a human to go ASI or cherry pick what you want. A tenet of Oath of the Crown is also civilization, which seems to me to thematically fit the "last standing, holding the line" type character.
Of note this build comes partially online at level 3 when you gain access to Command and Compelled Duel, combined with human extra feat for sentinel or PAM, giving you ~2 - 3 ways to impede movement or force creatures to interact with you. I use it with Shield Master and shoving to great effect personally (just because I wanted to switch up the PAM style characters.)
Oath of the Crown does definitely call to me on this one as well, while Conquest is more the style I was thinking, Crown is more the substance of the idea to be sure. I had considered it, but I'm not sure if there's a way to get it without the SCAG, and the PHB+1 rule is therefore hindering me unless I ditch Hexblade, which did seem important to avoid becoming too MAD for the feats I'm considering. But, I have also thought sneaking in Booming Blade could be a nice addition to PAM shenanigans, and the extra room for a feat in this build would give me a chance for Warcaster, so going SCAG over XGE is certainly not out of the question. In your experience, how effective is the Champion Challenge effect at keeping focus on your character? I was thinking the 30ft radius might be too big and allow a fair amount of wiggle room to circumvent me and go for the back ranks, especially if I maneuver to chase, they get a longer leash to run with. But I'm talking all theoretical with no experience, so does it play out different in practice?
The only reason I set aside Spirit Guardians is because you have sacrifice so many core aspects of the build to try to fit it in early. Spirit Guardians is an awesome spell.
The big problem is that Oath of the Crown is from SCAG while hexblade is from Xanathar's so you can't have both in AL with the PHB+1 constraint.
If you think Spirit guardians is key then you could go with paladin 6/hexblade 1/divine soul sorcerer 5 - you'll get spirit guardians at level 12 that way. Probably level it up as 1 paladin/1hexblade/5 paladin/5 sorcerer.
Unfortunately, with so many classes needed to get all the features you want, there is no way to really speed up everything coming together. Oath of the Crown would have been a good way to Spirit Guardians but it doesn't work for AL.
Makes sense, your initial suggestion seems like the route to go with. I apparently was just getting myself too hung up on trying to get the glaive and Spirit Guardians to work, and work early, but switching focus to Paladin and staff+shield seems like the way to go. Thanks for helping sort out my thoughts! I look forward to bringing this to DDAL, and Season 9 seems like the perfect setting for the idea, so should be fun!
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Hey guys, been theory-crafting a build that I'm quite fond of, but the longer I try to hammer it down, the more messy, MAD, and late-tier online it becomes. Was hoping for some help sorting out options/thinking of new options as choice-paralysis is becoming a bit of a problem.
The overall aim, is to make a character who in concept, is the abandoned, doomed to die soldier who's whole existence is to "hold the line." Kind of Dragon Age "Legion of the Dead" style for those that understand the reference. Mechanically, my goal is to have three abilities, that all prohibit enemy movement, but do so in three different ways so that I can still do my job if the enemy has some kind of specific tricks that work around mine.
So ended up deciding that Hexblade 4/Divine Soul Sorc 5/Oath of Conquest Pal 11 with Polearm Master/Sentinel/Spirit Guardians/Oath of Conquest stuff would check all my boxes and be pretty SAD, but I also see no good way to make this monstrosity come fully online before like... level 16. So, looking for advice to make this more than dead weight between levels 5-15, or just a different direction to go entirely to accomplish my general mechanical goals.
Realize this might be asking too much out of one character, but 3 tricks to make the enemy have to face me instead of the backlines just seemed like the right amount for making a really sticky tank.
I think you have to prioritize what you want most from the build. You also have a lot of feats so you really need to make it SAD.
I think the one thing that will have to wait the longest is spirit guardians. In some ways it sounds like the least essential element and it is one that will take the longest to come online.
Also, take my comments with a grain of salt since how I see it playing out and how you want to play it might be entirely different. This includes how you want to play it an rebuild it during tier 1.
Considerations
Are you going PAM with a spear/quarterstaff and a shield or using a two handed reach weapon like a glaive? AC is much better with the shield. You can also apply hexwarrior to one handed weapons but not two handed ones.
Anyway, level progression might be something like
paladin +1 -> Hexblade +1 -> paladin +5/6 or paladin +10
You can either take paladin to 6/7 for the aura or to 11 for improved divine smite. Try to get strength boosting items and use ASI to boost charisma. Start variant human and take PAM. Gauntlets of Ogre Power (Tier 1) and Belt of Fire Giant strength (Tier 3) are both available and make great magic items even for a SAD paladin. If you get the gauntlets in tier 1 you can even rebuild to have 13 strength since you won't need it for heavy armor.
If you really want spirit guardians, the earliest you can manage it would be level 12. 6 paladin/1 hexblade/5 sorcerer.
Anyway, even without all the tricks your character won't be deadweight between 5-15.
I am playing a similar character but using magic items to boost strength. In my case likely variant human devotion 11/celestial warlock 2/divine soul 7 - PAM + 2xASI to charisma + Sentinel though I may juggle the levels around to get another ASI if I think I need it. So far the character is level 5, PAM, 18 charisma, gauntlets of ogre power using a spear+shield with the dueling fighting style. Seems to work pretty well.
Alternatively, Oath of the Crown paladin has access to spirit guardians at level 9, allowing for 2 feats and 1 extra if you are a human. They also have an ability Champion Challenge that forces creatures to stay within 30 feet of the paladin, with spirit guardians at a radius of 15 feet you become difficult terrain and they either need to range attack you and risk being picked off by your teammates or take hits from spirit guardians to close melee with you. It's not the strongest paladin subclass but it's pretty effective. The benefit is that Champion Challenge is a channel divinity ability and not a charmed effect or a fear effect like the oath of conquests fears, meaning no creatures who fail the wisdom save have a way of resisting it, even legendary creatures that fail would need to burn a legendary resistance to get free. Combined with your PA Mastery and Sentinel you have an extra feat as a human to go ASI or cherry pick what you want. A tenet of Oath of the Crown is also civilization, which seems to me to thematically fit the "last standing, holding the line" type character.
Of note this build comes partially online at level 3 when you gain access to Command and Compelled Duel, combined with human extra feat for sentinel or PAM, giving you ~2 - 3 ways to impede movement or force creatures to interact with you. I use it with Shield Master and shoving to great effect personally (just because I wanted to switch up the PAM style characters.)
Initially, I was thinking glaive, as it'd increase my threat range more and keep my area control higher with Sentinel's literal stopping power, and with the PAM AoO, could in theory keep some attacks from even getting in range, thus reducing my need for high AC. But, that did require hitting Level 3 in Warlock early to get Pact of the Blade to extend Hexblade's effects to it... and then trying to get that early pushed back a lot of other things, and ultimately you see where this conundrum led me. So, may well just go for the shield and quarterstaff combo and accept that while the AoO range is decreased, high AC helps against both melee and ranged attacks. Also considered potentially starting Sorcerer and just accepting that I'd effectively switch roles the longer into the build I went, that does also close off heavy armor, which then lowers the max AC again, and leaves more holes to exploit, especially if I don't go glaive.
I did feel that Spirit Guardians was actually one of the most critical though. It's big radius, high damage (compared to Oath of Conquest's Aura) and having no saves would make it my first and best line of defense against most anything, as the fear aura and PAM+Sentinel shutdown any dogmatic enough to try and push through irregardless of their halved speed. But it is certainly one of the most difficult to get myself to, and clearly this wasn't your assessment. Could I ask why you favor the other two options over Spirit Guardians?
Regardless I think I'll end up pushing for Spirit Guardians back if I go with this build idea as it does cause a fair number of issues trying to get it early.
Oath of the Crown does definitely call to me on this one as well, while Conquest is more the style I was thinking, Crown is more the substance of the idea to be sure. I had considered it, but I'm not sure if there's a way to get it without the SCAG, and the PHB+1 rule is therefore hindering me unless I ditch Hexblade, which did seem important to avoid becoming too MAD for the feats I'm considering. But, I have also thought sneaking in Booming Blade could be a nice addition to PAM shenanigans, and the extra room for a feat in this build would give me a chance for Warcaster, so going SCAG over XGE is certainly not out of the question. In your experience, how effective is the Champion Challenge effect at keeping focus on your character? I was thinking the 30ft radius might be too big and allow a fair amount of wiggle room to circumvent me and go for the back ranks, especially if I maneuver to chase, they get a longer leash to run with. But I'm talking all theoretical with no experience, so does it play out different in practice?
The only reason I set aside Spirit Guardians is because you have sacrifice so many core aspects of the build to try to fit it in early. Spirit Guardians is an awesome spell.
The big problem is that Oath of the Crown is from SCAG while hexblade is from Xanathar's so you can't have both in AL with the PHB+1 constraint.
If you think Spirit guardians is key then you could go with paladin 6/hexblade 1/divine soul sorcerer 5 - you'll get spirit guardians at level 12 that way. Probably level it up as 1 paladin/1hexblade/5 paladin/5 sorcerer.
Unfortunately, with so many classes needed to get all the features you want, there is no way to really speed up everything coming together. Oath of the Crown would have been a good way to Spirit Guardians but it doesn't work for AL.
Makes sense, your initial suggestion seems like the route to go with. I apparently was just getting myself too hung up on trying to get the glaive and Spirit Guardians to work, and work early, but switching focus to Paladin and staff+shield seems like the way to go. Thanks for helping sort out my thoughts! I look forward to bringing this to DDAL, and Season 9 seems like the perfect setting for the idea, so should be fun!