I keep thinking that burrowing (and flying, for that matter), should require the use of 3D space. How does a burrowing creature transition from above to underground or vice-versa without using any movement?
If a creature burrows and it's movement runs out, shouldn't it be considered underground (stuck/hiding)?
I'm having trouble finding anyone bringing this issue up so I'm gonna go ahead and implement my own rules for this. I'd love to hear any opinions, issues with, or anything otherwise I might have missed in general.
- Burrowing requires a min of 5ft movement to be used whenever transitioning from above to below/below to above ground. (when surfacing, ground above must be unoccupied, or occupied with a creature 1 size or more smaller than the burrower. Occupant is moved 1 unit over (random) and must make a Dex roll (DC?) to avoid becoming prone. Ending burrowing movements with this upward push on another creature requires an action, as opposed to just surfacing (5ft of movement). Movement stats can be increased to reflect this extra requirement as per the GM's discretion (add 10 ft to each burrowing stat?).
Just noticed I can't find anything to do with altitude in any of my source books when it comes to flying either. I'm just going to allow flight without a 5ft min altitude requirement, so long as the flyer doesn't need to go through (over) something/someone.
Yes, burrowing or flying are 3d movement, though since 5e ignores diagonals a monster can burrow up/down at the same time as it moves horizontally. A burrowing monster that wants to move into another creature's space on the surface follows the normal rules for moving into another creature's space -- can only do it if size differs by at least 2 levels, it does a slam, or it has a special ability that permits it to do so.
Yes, burrowing or flying are 3d movement, though since 5e ignores diagonals a monster can burrow up/down at the same time as it moves horizontally. A burrowing monster that wants to move into another creature's space on the surface follows the normal rules for moving into another creature's space -- can only do it if size differs by at least 2 levels, it does a slam, or it has a special ability that permits it to do so.
Thanks for the clarifications, especially the size/space thing. I still think altitude/depths should be considered unique though. So a surface-level cre who wants to burrow, move over 2 squares, and resurface, would expend 20 ft of burrowing movement (that's what I'm going to try to implement, anyways).
Yes, burrowing or flying are 3d movement, though since 5e ignores diagonals a monster can burrow up/down at the same time as it moves horizontally. A burrowing monster that wants to move into another creature's space on the surface follows the normal rules for moving into another creature's space -- can only do it if size differs by at least 2 levels, it does a slam, or it has a special ability that permits it to do so.
Thanks for the clarifications, especially the size/space thing. I still think altitude/depths should be considered unique though. So a surface-level cre who wants to burrow, move over 2 squares, and resurface, would expend 20 ft of burrowing movement (that's what I'm going to try to implement, anyways).
3-D space also applies to swimming/aquatic movement when there's enough depth. As far as "transitional" space from one mode or medium (say on ground to in ground or in air or under water), I think I see what you're asking for but I wouldn't do it unless the environment was particularly confining. I mean difficult terrain could be applied to particularly dense or stony earth, high wind environments or turbulent seas if you want to exact tolls if you're worried about players changing the geometric plane for some sort of advantage. Otherwise, for me a Remorhaz can dive and borrow into the ice in the square they occupy because they're just that agile. Maybe force some sort of athletics check if you have doubts a PC could do a similar dive.
You can also map x-y-z coordinates on something a little more precise than a grid of 5'x5' squares if you're really into 3-d point plotting. "The system" of 5e doesn't pay a lot of attention to that, but I'm a big proponent of using the spatial relations in game that let you run the game you want, so as long as your players can follow how you're tracking 3-d and subterranean action affecting ground level conditions cool.
For the "undermining" a monster via burrowing in a way that's based in some of the simpler rules, I might opt to make the PC or burrowing entity roll to shove a character they're moving under. I know a lot of folks don't care for the "hand to hand" rules in D&D, but they are there and may be worth a look rather than excavating, so to speak, specialized movement rules.
Now because I'm playing a (non-burrowing) Scout, I'm wondering how that subclass's skirmish feature might play if the scout can burrow and is burrowed underground (skirmish allows a reaction of up to half a characters movement if an enemy winds up within 5' of them).
Yes I don't think remembering that burrowers are 5ft down would be difficult. I can't imagine many situations where going any deeper would be necessary. Unless there's a buried cavern you need to find, or you need to drain a lake, or other such shenanigans. I'm guessing with flying/swimming battles I'd just need to record altitude/depth as I go (although I have not looked at any of the flying/swimming combat details yet). I could use one of those little bubbles!
Yes I don't think remembering that burrowers are 5ft down would be difficult. I can't imagine many situations where going any deeper would be necessary. Unless there's a buried cavern you need to find, or you need to drain a lake, or other such shenanigans. I'm guessing with flying/swimming battles I'd just need to record altitude/depth as I go (although I have not looked at any of the flying/swimming combat details yet). I could use one of those little bubbles!
That scout/skirmish stuff is above my paygrade.
One of my games I've transposed an Exandria adventure into the Forgotten Realms Sea of Moving Ice. Remorhaz are a rampant random encounter. When they get to 50% hp I have them try to escape by doing a steep burrowing dive back into the ice from which they errupted. PC can jump or try to scale down after them (in some lore the hide and some of the organs can actually fetch coin).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Yes I don't think remembering that burrowers are 5ft down would be difficult. I can't imagine many situations where going any deeper would be necessary. Unless there's a buried cavern you need to find, or you need to drain a lake, or other such shenanigans. I'm guessing with flying/swimming battles I'd just need to record altitude/depth as I go (although I have not looked at any of the flying/swimming combat details yet). I could use one of those little bubbles!
That scout/skirmish stuff is above my paygrade.
One of my games I've transposed an Exandria adventure into the Forgotten Realms Sea of Moving Ice. Remorhaz are a rampant random encounter. When they get to 50% hp I have them try to escape by doing a steep burrowing dive back into the ice from which they errupted. PC can jump or try to scale down after them (in some lore the hide and some of the organs can actually fetch coin).
Why wait to half hp? Just burrow up, bite someone, causing them to be grappled, immediately retreat down hole (pulling them after). And if they jump down after, congratulations, you're standing on a Remorhaz, take 3d6 fire damage.
Yes I don't think remembering that burrowers are 5ft down would be difficult. I can't imagine many situations where going any deeper would be necessary. Unless there's a buried cavern you need to find, or you need to drain a lake, or other such shenanigans. I'm guessing with flying/swimming battles I'd just need to record altitude/depth as I go (although I have not looked at any of the flying/swimming combat details yet). I could use one of those little bubbles!
That scout/skirmish stuff is above my paygrade.
One of my games I've transposed an Exandria adventure into the Forgotten Realms Sea of Moving Ice. Remorhaz are a rampant random encounter. When they get to 50% hp I have them try to escape by doing a steep burrowing dive back into the ice from which they errupted. PC can jump or try to scale down after them (in some lore the hide and some of the organs can actually fetch coin).
Why wait to half hp? Just burrow up, bite someone, causing them to be grappled, immediately retreat down hole (pulling them after). And if they jump down after, congratulations, you're standing on a Remorhaz, take 3d6 fire damage.
Sorry, Young Remorhaz, so they don't have the grapple bite. Party was 2nd level during the encounters, but they'll be going back to the Sea of Moving Ice and the the YR's parents will be waiting, so good tactic.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I keep thinking that burrowing (and flying, for that matter), should require the use of 3D space.
How does a burrowing creature transition from above to underground or vice-versa without using any movement?
If a creature burrows and it's movement runs out, shouldn't it be considered underground (stuck/hiding)?
I'm having trouble finding anyone bringing this issue up so I'm gonna go ahead and implement my own rules for this. I'd love to hear any opinions, issues with, or anything otherwise I might have missed in general.
- Burrowing requires a min of 5ft movement to be used whenever transitioning from above to below/below to above ground. (when surfacing, ground above must be unoccupied, or occupied with a creature 1 size or more smaller than the burrower. Occupant is moved 1 unit over (random) and must make a Dex roll (DC?) to avoid becoming prone. Ending burrowing movements with this upward push on another creature requires an action, as opposed to just surfacing (5ft of movement). Movement stats can be increased to reflect this extra requirement as per the GM's discretion (add 10 ft to each burrowing stat?).
Just noticed I can't find anything to do with altitude in any of my source books when it comes to flying either. I'm just going to allow flight without a 5ft min altitude requirement, so long as the flyer doesn't need to go through (over) something/someone.
Yes, burrowing or flying are 3d movement, though since 5e ignores diagonals a monster can burrow up/down at the same time as it moves horizontally. A burrowing monster that wants to move into another creature's space on the surface follows the normal rules for moving into another creature's space -- can only do it if size differs by at least 2 levels, it does a slam, or it has a special ability that permits it to do so.
Thanks for the clarifications, especially the size/space thing. I still think altitude/depths should be considered unique though. So a surface-level cre who wants to burrow, move over 2 squares, and resurface, would expend 20 ft of burrowing movement (that's what I'm going to try to implement, anyways).
Also if someone reads this and invents a roll playing version of Minecraft I want credit.
Perfectly fine as a house rule.
3-D space also applies to swimming/aquatic movement when there's enough depth. As far as "transitional" space from one mode or medium (say on ground to in ground or in air or under water), I think I see what you're asking for but I wouldn't do it unless the environment was particularly confining. I mean difficult terrain could be applied to particularly dense or stony earth, high wind environments or turbulent seas if you want to exact tolls if you're worried about players changing the geometric plane for some sort of advantage. Otherwise, for me a Remorhaz can dive and borrow into the ice in the square they occupy because they're just that agile. Maybe force some sort of athletics check if you have doubts a PC could do a similar dive.
You can also map x-y-z coordinates on something a little more precise than a grid of 5'x5' squares if you're really into 3-d point plotting. "The system" of 5e doesn't pay a lot of attention to that, but I'm a big proponent of using the spatial relations in game that let you run the game you want, so as long as your players can follow how you're tracking 3-d and subterranean action affecting ground level conditions cool.
For the "undermining" a monster via burrowing in a way that's based in some of the simpler rules, I might opt to make the PC or burrowing entity roll to shove a character they're moving under. I know a lot of folks don't care for the "hand to hand" rules in D&D, but they are there and may be worth a look rather than excavating, so to speak, specialized movement rules.
Now because I'm playing a (non-burrowing) Scout, I'm wondering how that subclass's skirmish feature might play if the scout can burrow and is burrowed underground (skirmish allows a reaction of up to half a characters movement if an enemy winds up within 5' of them).
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I FORGOT SWIMMING.
Yes I don't think remembering that burrowers are 5ft down would be difficult. I can't imagine many situations where going any deeper would be necessary. Unless there's a buried cavern you need to find, or you need to drain a lake, or other such shenanigans. I'm guessing with flying/swimming battles I'd just need to record altitude/depth as I go (although I have not looked at any of the flying/swimming combat details yet). I could use one of those little bubbles!
That scout/skirmish stuff is above my paygrade.
One of my games I've transposed an Exandria adventure into the Forgotten Realms Sea of Moving Ice. Remorhaz are a rampant random encounter. When they get to 50% hp I have them try to escape by doing a steep burrowing dive back into the ice from which they errupted. PC can jump or try to scale down after them (in some lore the hide and some of the organs can actually fetch coin).
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Why wait to half hp? Just burrow up, bite someone, causing them to be grappled, immediately retreat down hole (pulling them after). And if they jump down after, congratulations, you're standing on a Remorhaz, take 3d6 fire damage.
Sorry, Young Remorhaz, so they don't have the grapple bite. Party was 2nd level during the encounters, but they'll be going back to the Sea of Moving Ice and the the YR's parents will be waiting, so good tactic.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
that exists: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whu5gJrLOcw