Quick question. . . the PC's are in conversation with a hag coven. They're all simply talking. Suddenly the PC wizard decides to cast "blind" on one of the hags. Please correct me if this is not the proper order of things:
1.) Everybody rolls for initiative,
2.) Everyone acts according to initiative order.
Right? No one was surprised because everyone in the room knew that combat was a possibility so everyone was at the ready. So if no one was surprised, everyone gets a turn in this first round.
So, the DM is the sole person that determines if there is surprise or not. Normally surprise is the result of stealth. Thats RAW. Gaining surprise from a social interaction would be outside the rules.
From the PHB: 'The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.'
RAW, the only way to have surprise is to roll a Stealth check and beat the opponent's passive Perception. The opponent has to be totally unaware of your presence or at least unaware of your precise location (e.g. because of a successful Hide action).
RAW, the only way to have surprise is to roll a Stealth check and beat the opponent's passive Perception. The opponent has to be totally unaware of your presence or at least unaware of your precise location (e.g. because of a successful Hide action).
As I'm just getting back into D&D (haven't played since the D&D2 days)
Are you saying that you roll a stealth check (the person doing the stealth) AND the opponent also gets a perception check? So...
Tot the rogue rolls a stealth check and passes. (he is now stealthy)
Ogre rolls a perception check and passes / fails?
Then roll your attack roll if you pass and he fails? (ie, stealth gives you initiative, so just roll the attack)
So to gain surprise, you have to both win your stealth check and the victim must lose his perception check.
I suppose, if you're hidden in place. You shouldn't have to re-roll a stealth check, but if you're moving while hidden (moving stealthy) you should have to re-roll your stealth check each time you move. (at least one a round while moving)
I just DM'ed a small game with an old buddy I used to play with years ago. (first time playing again in 30 years) He basically rage quit because I wouldn't allow him to sneak through an open door that the group just opened because everyone in the room saw people from the group enter. He basically said, rogues suck then and aren't worth playing! Then just disconnected from Discord / Foundry.
RAW, the only way to have surprise is to roll a Stealth check and beat the opponent's passive Perception. The opponent has to be totally unaware of your presence or at least unaware of your precise location (e.g. because of a successful Hide action).
As I'm just getting back into D&D (haven't played since the D&D2 days)
Are you saying that you roll a stealth check (the person doing the stealth) AND the opponent also gets a perception check? So...
Tot the rogue rolls a stealth check and passes. (he is now stealthy)
Ogre rolls a perception check and passes / fails?
Then roll your attack roll if you pass and he fails? (ie, stealth gives you initiative, so just roll the attack)
So to gain surprise, you have to both win your stealth check and the victim must lose his perception check.
In 5e you don't roll a stealth check for pass/fail. In your example the rogue rolls a Stealth check and has to beat the Perception of the ogre. That's it. And to simplify it, the ogre uses their "passive perception" against the Stealth roll - so normally only one dice roll is made in this instance.
Quick question. . . the PC's are in conversation with a hag coven. They're all simply talking. Suddenly the PC wizard decides to cast "blind" on one of the hags. Please correct me if this is not the proper order of things:
1.) Everybody rolls for initiative,
2.) Everyone acts according to initiative order.
Right? No one was surprised because everyone in the room knew that combat was a possibility so everyone was at the ready. So if no one was surprised, everyone gets a turn in this first round.
Many thanks in advance for any input!
I'm not a fan of having Dexterity being a determining factor here. If your player is trying to RP for some deceit to gain an advantage, then hell yeah give them a shot. That's what the game is all about. Otherwise... it's just mechanics... and that's boring. In a case like this.... I'd have the wizard do a Deception roll contested by an Insight of the Hag. On a success, he casts and then we roll initiative. On a failure, he'd have disadvantage on his initiative roll... risk and reward and all that. Just like I let my players do skill checks to try and gain advantage on attack rolls, but suffer a penalty on failure. - that's kind of how the game was intended.
Many thanks to all for the input, it's greatly appreciated! I understand that RAW it's not surprise, but you bring up an excellent point, Urandom. The PC's backstory is tightly bound to these hags and he RP'd the hell out of his speech before he decided to cast blind, so I'm going to give him a shot as you outlined.
Quick question. . . the PC's are in conversation with a hag coven. They're all simply talking. Suddenly the PC wizard decides to cast "blind" on one of the hags. Please correct me if this is not the proper order of things:
1.) Everybody rolls for initiative,
2.) Everyone acts according to initiative order.
Right? No one was surprised because everyone in the room knew that combat was a possibility so everyone was at the ready. So if no one was surprised, everyone gets a turn in this first round.
Many thanks in advance for any input!
This video is a bit long, but delves quite deep into the topic:
Quick question. . . the PC's are in conversation with a hag coven. They're all simply talking. Suddenly the PC wizard decides to cast "blind" on one of the hags. Please correct me if this is not the proper order of things:
1.) Everybody rolls for initiative,
2.) Everyone acts according to initiative order.
Right? No one was surprised because everyone in the room knew that combat was a possibility so everyone was at the ready. So if no one was surprised, everyone gets a turn in this first round.
Many thanks in advance for any input!
Im not an expert in the rules at all but I would imagine that if everyone knew combat was an outcome that there would be no surprise.
Mythology Master
Great, thanks, Poseidon_the_Dungeonmaster2. So that would mean we'd simply roll initiative as normal, yeah? Thanks.
So, the DM is the sole person that determines if there is surprise or not. Normally surprise is the result of stealth. Thats RAW. Gaining surprise from a social interaction would be outside the rules.
From the PHB: 'The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.'
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
I often allow surprise to also be gained if one party bashes through a door and tries to catch the baddies on the other side unaware.
RAW, the only way to have surprise is to roll a Stealth check and beat the opponent's passive Perception. The opponent has to be totally unaware of your presence or at least unaware of your precise location (e.g. because of a successful Hide action).
As I'm just getting back into D&D (haven't played since the D&D2 days)
Are you saying that you roll a stealth check (the person doing the stealth) AND the opponent also gets a perception check? So...
So to gain surprise, you have to both win your stealth check and the victim must lose his perception check.
I suppose, if you're hidden in place. You shouldn't have to re-roll a stealth check, but if you're moving while hidden (moving stealthy) you should have to re-roll your stealth check each time you move. (at least one a round while moving)
I just DM'ed a small game with an old buddy I used to play with years ago. (first time playing again in 30 years) He basically rage quit because I wouldn't allow him to sneak through an open door that the group just opened because everyone in the room saw people from the group enter. He basically said, rogues suck then and aren't worth playing! Then just disconnected from Discord / Foundry.
/rolleyes
Info, Inflow, Overload. Knowledge Black Hole Imminent!
No surprise.
The wizard starts incanting some arcane words (and for other spells, getting spell components ready or an arcane focus out).
Everybody in the room suddenly jumps into action.
Initiative determines whether the wizard can really get the entire spell finished before anyone else reacts in the round.
In 5e you don't roll a stealth check for pass/fail.
In your example the rogue rolls a Stealth check and has to beat the Perception of the ogre. That's it.
And to simplify it, the ogre uses their "passive perception" against the Stealth roll - so normally only one dice roll is made in this instance.
...cryptographic randomness!
I'm not a fan of having Dexterity being a determining factor here. If your player is trying to RP for some deceit to gain an advantage, then hell yeah give them a shot. That's what the game is all about. Otherwise... it's just mechanics... and that's boring.
In a case like this.... I'd have the wizard do a Deception roll contested by an Insight of the Hag.
On a success, he casts and then we roll initiative. On a failure, he'd have disadvantage on his initiative roll... risk and reward and all that.
Just like I let my players do skill checks to try and gain advantage on attack rolls, but suffer a penalty on failure. - that's kind of how the game was intended.
...cryptographic randomness!
Many thanks to all for the input, it's greatly appreciated! I understand that RAW it's not surprise, but you bring up an excellent point, Urandom. The PC's backstory is tightly bound to these hags and he RP'd the hell out of his speech before he decided to cast blind, so I'm going to give him a shot as you outlined.
Again, many thanks to all!
This video is a bit long, but delves quite deep into the topic:
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules