My current group has slowly and organically grown to 7 players (I know that is a lot and this is not a post or thread asking about the number of players, so please don't derail the thread by discussions on party size, thanks). We are using pretty much every sourcebook published, other than Unearthed Arcana - so PHB, XGE, SCAG, DMG and Tasha's. We allow all optional rules (e.g. Feats, multiclassing, etc) and some of my players love optimizing and will spend hours tinkering with PCs or reading published uber-powerful builds on the net.
As you can imagine when you combine the above, the party ends up being extremely powerful and punching way above its weight. I am currently running Out of the Abyss for them which I have mixed up by bringing in parts of the Princes of the Apocolypse and Tyranny of Dragons to stretch it out to 20th level. They are currently 12th level and are breaking every pre-written encounter in the book as you can imagine. Now, I'm a busy man with a full-time job and a young family. I don't have the time to rebuild each and every encounter in the campaign to balance them for the PCs in the party. And to be honest, I don't really have the inclination either. That's why I buy pre-made campaigns.
So, onto my question:
If pre-mades are designed to be balanced against 4-5 PCs with PHB classes and no optional rules (no feats, no multiclassing) and little optimization; What level encounters should I be throwing at my party of 7 uber-powerful PCs?
I'm not really talking about this campaign which is already in full flow and it's too late to save. I am thinking that next time I DM, when my party of 7 uber-dudes is, say, 3rd level, what level adventure would be about right to put them into? Where will it start being too dangerous for them?
I suspect it's a complex answer and not a simple equation (like PC level + 4) but is there any idea/guidance on this? Anyone with similar experiences and what did you do?
I don't think there's much advice that can be given that won't involve a bit of work on your part (I hear the 'full-time job and family' - same). Here's a few ideas I'd try that are low to medium-low time investment -
Cheat. Just up the hit points/AC/attack of your monsters so they last a few more rounds. Probably the easiest, and can be done on the fly. Bit boring though.
Introduce 'action oriented' creatures that can summon. I've done this twice for my players, and both times it's created memorable and challenging encounters and you can up the challenge on the fly by summoning more creatures. There are a number of them available around the internet. Just search "Colville action oriented monster"
Run a few one-shots using the encounter builder. Add one to the party level, create a deadly encounter*, and see how they handle it. If they do well, next time add two. Rinse until TPK. You now have a feel for your party's real level. Choose your next adventure accordingly.
*Note that a deadly encounter when the party is at full power and can 'go nova' will be a lot easier than a deadly encounter after a dungeon crawl that has depleted their resources.
Some optional rules are just not worth playing, and will definitely cause power creep. I'd consider Flanking to be one of the easiest optional rules to ban in order to reduce their power a little bit (no automatic advantage for melee characters).
Quick and Dirty improvements: have all monsters statted with their max HPs instead of their average HP; up their AC and saves by 2.
Are you using the optional rule of "all monsters do average damage" (or some wording like that)?
So we are not using Flanking. Actually all that raft of DMG optional game rules we don't use. I was more talking about optional character creation rules. Sorry for the ambiguity.
We don't use "average damage" we are running on Fantasy Grounds so dice rolling it automated and simple. It doesn't take any time. Would switching to average damage help/make things worse?
So we are not using Flanking. Actually all that raft of DMG optional game rules we don't use. I was more talking about optional character creation rules. Sorry for the ambiguity.
We don't use "average damage" we are running on Fantasy Grounds so dice rolling it automated and simple. It doesn't take any time. Would switching to average damage help/make things worse?
Over many encounters, average damage and rolled for damage will even out by definition. However, if your party are dispatching encounters super quickly, each encounter will likely have very variable amounts of damage since within the encounter there isn't time for the damage to average out. Some encounters will have the creatures doing very little damage, some will have them doing lots. Average will mean you no longer have the terrible damage rolls.
Do you enforce the adventuring day at all? You should be having multiple encounters every day - don't let the party rest after every fight. Resource depletion is the best in-game way to make encounters harder.
Do you enforce the adventuring day at all? You should be having multiple encounters every day - don't let the party rest after every fight. Resource depletion is the best in-game way to make encounters harder.
No, I don't. In OotA there is rarely more than 1 encounter per day so the PCs can nova everything. Even in the "dungeon" settings, they smash content. We've had a few conversations about how to fix it but nothing has been decided. Agreed this does not help.
Do you enforce the adventuring day at all? You should be having multiple encounters every day - don't let the party rest after every fight. Resource depletion is the best in-game way to make encounters harder.
No, I don't. In OotA there is rarely more than 1 encounter per day so the PCs can nova everything. Even in the "dungeon" settings, they smash content. We've had a few conversations about how to fix it but nothing has been decided. Agreed this does not help.
Does OotA not have any time pressure, and are the places they rest safe? I always remind my players that the world remains in motion when they rest, and ask them if the spot they've chosen looks safe. It's one thing to set up camp at night on a 3 day hike, an entirely different thing to rest in the middle of a hostile dungeon. Do any of your creatures run for reinforcements? Sure, you can drop your guard and rest, but that drow you let escape sure looked like she had a purpose...
My party's wizard (who also happens to be my wife) is kinda miffed with me at the moment because it's 2 in the afternoon, she's almost out of spell slots, and every time she suggests a rest I remind the party that there's a plot in motion around them, and it will move forward while they rest.
There is very little time pressure as written in OotA. In fact, in the middle of the campaign, it's expected the PCs have a three-month break before the second part kicks off. And because the PCs are so overpowered for the dungeon they don't really ever need any rests. They just destroy any set piece "dungeon" without taking a breather. As I say I think the current campaign is a lost cause, so I'm more thinking of how I can improve this in a simple way for my next campaign.
I know this is a really strong requirement and maybe makes the answer "Sorry, it's not possible", but I really am just trying to work out what level of campaign/adventure/encounters I need to throw at my 7-man party of overpowered PCs, going forward. As I say I don't have time or inclination to do any of the encounter adjusting ploys (even something as simple as doubling HP and adjusting all the monsters to hit and AC takes quite a bit of work when it's all pre-programmed into a VTT like Fantasy Grounds).
Is PC Level +3 about right? +4? I suspect the answer will simply be "suck it and see". Also, even with 7 uber-PCs they still are fragile as porcelain dolls at 1st level so I am not sure I can just start throwing the PCs straight into 4th level adventures at 1st level (or can I?)
There is very little time pressure as written in OotA. In fact, in the middle of the campaign, it's expected the PCs have a three-month break before the second part kicks off. And because the PCs are so overpowered for the dungeon they don't really ever need any rests. They just destroy any set piece "dungeon" without taking a breather. As I say I think the current campaign is a lost cause, so I'm more thinking of how I can improve this in a simple way for my next campaign.
I know this is a really strong requirement and maybe makes the answer "Sorry, it's not possible", but I really am just trying to work out what level of campaign/adventure/encounters I need to throw at my 7-man party of overpowered PCs, going forward. As I say I don't have time or inclination to do any of the encounter adjusting ploys (even something as simple as doubling HP and adjusting all the monsters to hit and AC takes quite a bit of work when it's all pre-programmed into a VTT like Fantasy Grounds).
Is PC Level +3 about right? +4? I suspect the answer will simply be "suck it and see". Also, even with 7 uber-PCs they still are fragile as porcelain dolls at 1st level so I am not sure I can just start throwing the PCs straight into 4th level adventures at 1st level (or can I?)
There's no magic bullet that isn't going to take at least a little time investment. I mean, you can just assume they're 3 levels higher than the sheet says, but that's a guess at best, and if you're letting them go nova on every encounter may not actually be enough. If you put them into a time-pressured adventure next, anything you guess at based on OotA is probably going to fall apart.
I'm sorry to say it, but I think you need to hear it - you're in a situation of your own making. You've granted your players all the opportunities to power game, while rejecting the use of the tools at your disposal to balance things out. You also allowed your table to expand beyond a reasonable size, and told us we're not allowed to address that point. You're intent on strictly running modules that don't anticipate power gamers and are generally balanced for a standard party of four. Really, what did you think would happen?
If you don't want to spend the time adjusting the game, you need to keep your party relatively vanilla and of a size appropriate to the module you want to run.
If you want to allow your party to run amok and power game to their heart's content, you need to invest the time to create adventures tailored to them or adjust the pre-built modules accordingly.
If you don't want to do either of these things, then the best course of action may be to nominate a different DM that does want to invest the time.
No offence was taken and I 100% agree with your observations.
I've been trying (clearly unsuccessfully) to curtail the power creep in our games but the other players appear to like being uber-powerful. Equally, not many of them appear to be concerned that they destroy every encounter. The group size has increased slowly as others have thrown in the odd "Do you mind if my friend joins us?" type request. When three or four players have already said, "the more the merrier" then it's not really a nice thing to start saying, "I think we have too many already" even when I think we have too many already. :)
We alternate DMing with a few of us, campaign after campaign, and other DMs do have the time and inclination to build/adjust encounters based upon the above criterion so perhaps the long and short of it is that it's time to hang up my DM hat with this group (until circumstances change; player numbers drop, or whatever) and just let others DM all the time.
Trouble is, I actually really like DMing when the game feels challenging...
What about just adding more of the same creatures to the encounter? If there are 7 PC's and most of the encounters are built around 4-5 PCs that would make a huge difference, I bet some enemies are often killed before they even get to act. If the action economy is off, just add some more of the same, that way you don't have to mess with changing HP or AC, etc.
One more thought. It would require more in-session work, but little or no more out-of-session work.
Find an excuse the split the party. The two parties then both work through different areas of the game as written, with the intention of meeting back up ready for the BBEG. Then spare just an hour or so to buff the hell out of BBEG to stand up against seven PCs. You can run separate sessions for each group, or run them both in the same sessions.
This way you have a party size appropriate to the encounter difficulty, even if their power level is still too high. The creatures may get at least one action before being turned into a fine mist of blood and bone.
This also means the XP from the campaign will be split, since each party is doing only half the encounters, helping to curtail the power creep.
Of course, if everyone is having fun, and no one cares that there is no challenge, then just keep going as is. No one should tell you and your party how to have fun.
One tangential question - which I feel allowed to ask as this was my thread - is how aggressively/intelligently do you guys DM your creatures?
It feels like we have an unwritten rule in our games that the monsters should spread out their attacks so that no one PC feels "picked upon", and that once a PC falls unconscious the monsters should move on to another PC, thus letting that fallen PC be revived with Healing Word and the like. Contrast this with player tactics which are definitely focused upon: Focus Fire (everyone where practically possible focuses on one creature to burn it down to reduce incoming attacks and damage as quickly as possible), Kill the Enemies (they never choose to knock enemies out, they always kill them, to stop them getting healed), Deal with Healers (in the event an NPC group has healers they are usually the number one targets as soon as they are revealed).
The above is very sound, sensible tactics which it appears only our players use. Do you use similar tactics for your NPCs against your players?
One tangential question - which I feel allowed to ask as this was my thread - is how aggressively/intelligently do you guys DM your creatures?
It feels like we have an unwritten rule in our games that the monsters should spread out their attacks so that no one PC feels "picked upon", and that once a PC falls unconscious the monsters should move on to another PC, thus letting that fallen PC be revived with Healing Word and the like. Contrast this with player tactics which are definitely focused upon: Focus Fire (everyone where practically possible focuses on one creature to burn it down to reduce incoming attacks and damage as quickly as possible), Kill the Enemies (they never choose to knock enemies out, they always kill them, to stop them getting healed), Deal with Healers (in the event an NPC group has healers they are usually the number one targets as soon as they are revealed).
The above is very sound, sensible tactics which it appears only our players use. Do you use similar tactics for your NPCs against your players?
The first guiding principle is that the bad guys want to win. Precisely what win means, and how they go about it, depends on the intelligence score of the creatures, the reason they are fighting, and whether they are fighting for themselves or as part of a co-ordinated effort. My really intelligent creatures plan strategically and will direct their minions in the battle field. E.g. -
The tactics of a group of wandering master-less bugbears will be limited to "raarrgghhhh stab stab stab"
A group of bugbears working for a high level warlock, left alone to defend a door will run basic tactics, precisely as if they've had some limited tactics training and then been left to fend for themselves. They can't really adapt creatively on the fly and they won't necessarily be able to assess the biggest threat in the room.
A group of bugbears in the same room as the warlock they are defending, will be taking orders from the warlock and will co-ordinate much better as a result. BBEG will be directing them to take out glass canons and healers. As soon as the warlock is dead, they revert to basic tactics or "raaarrghhhh stab stab stab" until they can get away (not worth dying for a master that's already dead).
Intelligent creatures also consider what the PCs may be doing. My party set up traps in the hallway and then poked their head through the door of Nezznar's chamber in LMOP, expecting him or his guards to come out and blunder into the trap. He did not - he knew he was well defended in the room, and the party had made such a ruckus that he knew they were coming for him. The trap was blatant and he could recognize the ham-fisted attempt to lure him out. He knew the lay of the dungeon, having explored that part of it before the party arrived, so he instead cast darkness on that doorway so the party could no longer see his movements, and sent a force out of the other door to loop around and attack the party from behind and attempt to force them back into the darkness where his spiders (with blindsight) were waiting <maniacal laugh>.
Regarding attacking fallen players, it again depends on the situation and motivation. A creature that's feeding will feed until they are sated or the player is dead - not just unconscious. A creature that's defending itself, or has discovered it bit off more than it could chew, will escape at first opportunity, so won't hang around to savage a fallen PC. If under guidance of an intelligent BBEG, then it will depend how much pressure the players are still exerting after the PC is downed. If BBEG feels the immediate pressure has been relieved a little, and they are better off consolidating the current position, they'll kill. If they remain outnumbered, they may switch attention to another PC rather than expending actions to get the kill, when another PC falls, the same assessment is made - better to consolidate the position, or temporarily improve it?
My creatures also want to live - if they are masterless, or if the PCs are scarier than their master, they generally won't fight to the death. They'll surrender, or they'll run. If the creatures have even a modicum of intelligence, and they know that back up is nearby, then they'll run for reinforcements as soon as it becomes apparent they are outmatched. My players have learned this, and soon as a creature runs for the door, their tactics change immediately - "He's getting backup! Stop him!"
The book/blog 'The Monsters Know What They Are Doing' is a great help for pre-determining exactly how creatures will act. It falls a little short on having an intelligent force directing multiple creatures, though.
TLDR: Adjust enemies' strategies according to what would make sense, and don't be afraid to go nova and/or focus fire.
Tactics wise, it depends on the group of enemies. I try to make the enemies act as close as possible to how they would act according to their description/lore. This makes it a little more realistic and also gives variety to the battles which makes it fun for both players and DM. So, while an orc on a mission from an unforgiving commander might fight to the death (because he knows the alternative), a monster encountered in the wild while hunting for food will likely run away once it becomes clear they are losing, or even if they take a couple big hits (predators know they need to be able to hunt to live, and an injured predator cannot hunt as well). Groups of enemies like kobolds work together to surround and attack foes, and would definitely focus fire on one character, especially if someone gets separated from the pack (I know you are way past kobolds in this campaign but the theory holds). Another example: I read somewhere that manticores prefer to eat humans over anything else, so when my group fought a manticore, he focused all attacks on the only human in the party with the attempt to knock him unconscious and fly away with him to kill and eat. Luckily my human bard survived the initial onslaught and had the invisibility spell, and was able to turn invisible and hide.
Also, I almost always have the enemies use their most powerful attacks/spells in the first round, because that is what makes the most tactical sense. The players know better than to hold back; why would the enemies be any different? Even with all of this, PCs are a lot more powerful that it seems, and if anything I usually have to add HP/additional enemies "on the fly" rather than hold back. This is especially true if the PCs only have a few encounters per day and know they can go nova. The closest I came to a TPK with my current party of 3 level 4 PCs was when I gave an enemy an extra level 3 spell slot it wasn't supposed to have (party does not have lv 3 spells yet), and the party was lined up perfectly to all 3 be hit by the lightning blot, and 2 of 3 had just taken a lightning bolt last round, and all 3 failed their dex saves. Even then, one of them survived and was able to administer a healing potion next turn to the paladin, who then used lay on hands, and they ended up with a close and memorable victory.
EDIT: In many situations it would definitely make sense for an enemy to attack a PC who is still fighting rather than waste a turn trying to kill a fallen PC who is no longer a threat; for this reason I usually don't have enemies attempt to kill a fallen PC unless there is a specific reason to do so.
The easy way to adjust prewritten encounters for a powerful party is: double them. Either use two full copies of the encounter, or add a second level-appropriate encounter to the first.
EDIT: In many situations it would definitely make sense for an enemy to attack a PC who is still fighting rather than waste a turn trying to kill a fallen PC who is no longer a threat; for this reason I usually don't have enemies attempt to kill a fallen PC unless there is a specific reason to do so.
It's a pretty good use of an action for a monster with multiattack to attack a downed PC twice, killing him outright, rather than letting someone cast Healing Word on him, though it's better if you can just kill them with collateral damage.
Party Composition Party Strength 3-4 characters, APL less than Very weak
3-4 characters, APL equivalent Weak, 3-4 characters, APL greater than Average
5 characters, APL less than Weak, 5 characters, APL equivalent Average
5 characters, APL greater than Strong, 6-7 characters, APL less than Average
6-7 characters, APL equivalent Strong, 6-7 characters, APL greater than Very strong
Party Composition Party Strength 3-4 characters, APL less than Very weak
3-4 characters, APL equivalent Weak, 3-4 characters, APL greater than Average
5 characters, APL less than Weak, 5 characters, APL equivalent Average
5 characters, APL greater than Strong, 6-7 characters, APL less than Average
6-7 characters, APL equivalent Strong, 6-7 characters, APL greater than Very strong
So your party will always be strong or very strong. Adventure League modules then suggest add monsters of the same time. Adding hit points. Or changing monsters out for higher CR monsters. Since I been running various book in AL style. I max out the hit points of all monsters. Then Add 2 monsters of the same type in the encounter. I also if the monsters are great than INT 10, no fire ball formation. Attack the wounded. Go for the mage etc.
One tangential question - which I feel allowed to ask as this was my thread - is how aggressively/intelligently do you guys DM your creatures?
It feels like we have an unwritten rule in our games that the monsters should spread out their attacks so that no one PC feels "picked upon", and that once a PC falls unconscious the monsters should move on to another PC, thus letting that fallen PC be revived with Healing Word and the like. Contrast this with player tactics which are definitely focused upon: Focus Fire (everyone where practically possible focuses on one creature to burn it down to reduce incoming attacks and damage as quickly as possible), Kill the Enemies (they never choose to knock enemies out, they always kill them, to stop them getting healed), Deal with Healers (in the event an NPC group has healers they are usually the number one targets as soon as they are revealed).
The above is very sound, sensible tactics which it appears only our players use. Do you use similar tactics for your NPCs against your players?
Tactics vary with the monster and their INT. If I do anything especially sneaky, mean and icky nasty. I just roll a d20 , if it not over the INT of monster. Then I would do some of the tactics you have suggested.
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Hello all,
My current group has slowly and organically grown to 7 players (I know that is a lot and this is not a post or thread asking about the number of players, so please don't derail the thread by discussions on party size, thanks). We are using pretty much every sourcebook published, other than Unearthed Arcana - so PHB, XGE, SCAG, DMG and Tasha's. We allow all optional rules (e.g. Feats, multiclassing, etc) and some of my players love optimizing and will spend hours tinkering with PCs or reading published uber-powerful builds on the net.
As you can imagine when you combine the above, the party ends up being extremely powerful and punching way above its weight. I am currently running Out of the Abyss for them which I have mixed up by bringing in parts of the Princes of the Apocolypse and Tyranny of Dragons to stretch it out to 20th level. They are currently 12th level and are breaking every pre-written encounter in the book as you can imagine. Now, I'm a busy man with a full-time job and a young family. I don't have the time to rebuild each and every encounter in the campaign to balance them for the PCs in the party. And to be honest, I don't really have the inclination either. That's why I buy pre-made campaigns.
So, onto my question:
If pre-mades are designed to be balanced against 4-5 PCs with PHB classes and no optional rules (no feats, no multiclassing) and little optimization; What level encounters should I be throwing at my party of 7 uber-powerful PCs?
I'm not really talking about this campaign which is already in full flow and it's too late to save. I am thinking that next time I DM, when my party of 7 uber-dudes is, say, 3rd level, what level adventure would be about right to put them into? Where will it start being too dangerous for them?
I suspect it's a complex answer and not a simple equation (like PC level + 4) but is there any idea/guidance on this? Anyone with similar experiences and what did you do?
Thanks in advance!
Blakey
My Author Page: www.peterjblake.com
Novels Published: Reynard's Fate, Kita's Honour, Okoth's War and Callindrill
I don't think there's much advice that can be given that won't involve a bit of work on your part (I hear the 'full-time job and family' - same). Here's a few ideas I'd try that are low to medium-low time investment -
*Note that a deadly encounter when the party is at full power and can 'go nova' will be a lot easier than a deadly encounter after a dungeon crawl that has depleted their resources.
I wonder if White Plume Mountain would be a suitable challenge for 7 x 3rd level uber-PCs? It's for 8th level PCs. Too far perhaps?
My Author Page: www.peterjblake.com
Novels Published: Reynard's Fate, Kita's Honour, Okoth's War and Callindrill
Some optional rules are just not worth playing, and will definitely cause power creep. I'd consider Flanking to be one of the easiest optional rules to ban in order to reduce their power a little bit (no automatic advantage for melee characters).
Quick and Dirty improvements: have all monsters statted with their max HPs instead of their average HP; up their AC and saves by 2.
Are you using the optional rule of "all monsters do average damage" (or some wording like that)?
So we are not using Flanking. Actually all that raft of DMG optional game rules we don't use. I was more talking about optional character creation rules. Sorry for the ambiguity.
We don't use "average damage" we are running on Fantasy Grounds so dice rolling it automated and simple. It doesn't take any time. Would switching to average damage help/make things worse?
My Author Page: www.peterjblake.com
Novels Published: Reynard's Fate, Kita's Honour, Okoth's War and Callindrill
Over many encounters, average damage and rolled for damage will even out by definition. However, if your party are dispatching encounters super quickly, each encounter will likely have very variable amounts of damage since within the encounter there isn't time for the damage to average out. Some encounters will have the creatures doing very little damage, some will have them doing lots. Average will mean you no longer have the terrible damage rolls.
Do you enforce the adventuring day at all? You should be having multiple encounters every day - don't let the party rest after every fight. Resource depletion is the best in-game way to make encounters harder.
No, I don't. In OotA there is rarely more than 1 encounter per day so the PCs can nova everything. Even in the "dungeon" settings, they smash content. We've had a few conversations about how to fix it but nothing has been decided. Agreed this does not help.
My Author Page: www.peterjblake.com
Novels Published: Reynard's Fate, Kita's Honour, Okoth's War and Callindrill
Does OotA not have any time pressure, and are the places they rest safe? I always remind my players that the world remains in motion when they rest, and ask them if the spot they've chosen looks safe. It's one thing to set up camp at night on a 3 day hike, an entirely different thing to rest in the middle of a hostile dungeon. Do any of your creatures run for reinforcements? Sure, you can drop your guard and rest, but that drow you let escape sure looked like she had a purpose...
My party's wizard (who also happens to be my wife) is kinda miffed with me at the moment because it's 2 in the afternoon, she's almost out of spell slots, and every time she suggests a rest I remind the party that there's a plot in motion around them, and it will move forward while they rest.
There is very little time pressure as written in OotA. In fact, in the middle of the campaign, it's expected the PCs have a three-month break before the second part kicks off. And because the PCs are so overpowered for the dungeon they don't really ever need any rests. They just destroy any set piece "dungeon" without taking a breather. As I say I think the current campaign is a lost cause, so I'm more thinking of how I can improve this in a simple way for my next campaign.
I know this is a really strong requirement and maybe makes the answer "Sorry, it's not possible", but I really am just trying to work out what level of campaign/adventure/encounters I need to throw at my 7-man party of overpowered PCs, going forward. As I say I don't have time or inclination to do any of the encounter adjusting ploys (even something as simple as doubling HP and adjusting all the monsters to hit and AC takes quite a bit of work when it's all pre-programmed into a VTT like Fantasy Grounds).
Is PC Level +3 about right? +4? I suspect the answer will simply be "suck it and see". Also, even with 7 uber-PCs they still are fragile as porcelain dolls at 1st level so I am not sure I can just start throwing the PCs straight into 4th level adventures at 1st level (or can I?)
My Author Page: www.peterjblake.com
Novels Published: Reynard's Fate, Kita's Honour, Okoth's War and Callindrill
There's no magic bullet that isn't going to take at least a little time investment. I mean, you can just assume they're 3 levels higher than the sheet says, but that's a guess at best, and if you're letting them go nova on every encounter may not actually be enough. If you put them into a time-pressured adventure next, anything you guess at based on OotA is probably going to fall apart.
I'm sorry to say it, but I think you need to hear it - you're in a situation of your own making. You've granted your players all the opportunities to power game, while rejecting the use of the tools at your disposal to balance things out. You also allowed your table to expand beyond a reasonable size, and told us we're not allowed to address that point. You're intent on strictly running modules that don't anticipate power gamers and are generally balanced for a standard party of four. Really, what did you think would happen?
If you don't want to spend the time adjusting the game, you need to keep your party relatively vanilla and of a size appropriate to the module you want to run.
If you want to allow your party to run amok and power game to their heart's content, you need to invest the time to create adventures tailored to them or adjust the pre-built modules accordingly.
If you don't want to do either of these things, then the best course of action may be to nominate a different DM that does want to invest the time.
No offence was taken and I 100% agree with your observations.
I've been trying (clearly unsuccessfully) to curtail the power creep in our games but the other players appear to like being uber-powerful. Equally, not many of them appear to be concerned that they destroy every encounter. The group size has increased slowly as others have thrown in the odd "Do you mind if my friend joins us?" type request. When three or four players have already said, "the more the merrier" then it's not really a nice thing to start saying, "I think we have too many already" even when I think we have too many already. :)
We alternate DMing with a few of us, campaign after campaign, and other DMs do have the time and inclination to build/adjust encounters based upon the above criterion so perhaps the long and short of it is that it's time to hang up my DM hat with this group (until circumstances change; player numbers drop, or whatever) and just let others DM all the time.
Trouble is, I actually really like DMing when the game feels challenging...
My Author Page: www.peterjblake.com
Novels Published: Reynard's Fate, Kita's Honour, Okoth's War and Callindrill
What about just adding more of the same creatures to the encounter? If there are 7 PC's and most of the encounters are built around 4-5 PCs that would make a huge difference, I bet some enemies are often killed before they even get to act. If the action economy is off, just add some more of the same, that way you don't have to mess with changing HP or AC, etc.
One more thought. It would require more in-session work, but little or no more out-of-session work.
Find an excuse the split the party. The two parties then both work through different areas of the game as written, with the intention of meeting back up ready for the BBEG. Then spare just an hour or so to buff the hell out of BBEG to stand up against seven PCs. You can run separate sessions for each group, or run them both in the same sessions.
This way you have a party size appropriate to the encounter difficulty, even if their power level is still too high. The creatures may get at least one action before being turned into a fine mist of blood and bone.
This also means the XP from the campaign will be split, since each party is doing only half the encounters, helping to curtail the power creep.
Of course, if everyone is having fun, and no one cares that there is no challenge, then just keep going as is. No one should tell you and your party how to have fun.
Thanks for the responses - it's appreciated.
One tangential question - which I feel allowed to ask as this was my thread - is how aggressively/intelligently do you guys DM your creatures?
It feels like we have an unwritten rule in our games that the monsters should spread out their attacks so that no one PC feels "picked upon", and that once a PC falls unconscious the monsters should move on to another PC, thus letting that fallen PC be revived with Healing Word and the like. Contrast this with player tactics which are definitely focused upon: Focus Fire (everyone where practically possible focuses on one creature to burn it down to reduce incoming attacks and damage as quickly as possible), Kill the Enemies (they never choose to knock enemies out, they always kill them, to stop them getting healed), Deal with Healers (in the event an NPC group has healers they are usually the number one targets as soon as they are revealed).
The above is very sound, sensible tactics which it appears only our players use. Do you use similar tactics for your NPCs against your players?
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The first guiding principle is that the bad guys want to win. Precisely what win means, and how they go about it, depends on the intelligence score of the creatures, the reason they are fighting, and whether they are fighting for themselves or as part of a co-ordinated effort. My really intelligent creatures plan strategically and will direct their minions in the battle field. E.g. -
Intelligent creatures also consider what the PCs may be doing. My party set up traps in the hallway and then poked their head through the door of Nezznar's chamber in LMOP, expecting him or his guards to come out and blunder into the trap. He did not - he knew he was well defended in the room, and the party had made such a ruckus that he knew they were coming for him. The trap was blatant and he could recognize the ham-fisted attempt to lure him out. He knew the lay of the dungeon, having explored that part of it before the party arrived, so he instead cast darkness on that doorway so the party could no longer see his movements, and sent a force out of the other door to loop around and attack the party from behind and attempt to force them back into the darkness where his spiders (with blindsight) were waiting <maniacal laugh>.
Regarding attacking fallen players, it again depends on the situation and motivation. A creature that's feeding will feed until they are sated or the player is dead - not just unconscious. A creature that's defending itself, or has discovered it bit off more than it could chew, will escape at first opportunity, so won't hang around to savage a fallen PC. If under guidance of an intelligent BBEG, then it will depend how much pressure the players are still exerting after the PC is downed. If BBEG feels the immediate pressure has been relieved a little, and they are better off consolidating the current position, they'll kill. If they remain outnumbered, they may switch attention to another PC rather than expending actions to get the kill, when another PC falls, the same assessment is made - better to consolidate the position, or temporarily improve it?
My creatures also want to live - if they are masterless, or if the PCs are scarier than their master, they generally won't fight to the death. They'll surrender, or they'll run. If the creatures have even a modicum of intelligence, and they know that back up is nearby, then they'll run for reinforcements as soon as it becomes apparent they are outmatched. My players have learned this, and soon as a creature runs for the door, their tactics change immediately - "He's getting backup! Stop him!"
The book/blog 'The Monsters Know What They Are Doing' is a great help for pre-determining exactly how creatures will act. It falls a little short on having an intelligent force directing multiple creatures, though.
TLDR: Adjust enemies' strategies according to what would make sense, and don't be afraid to go nova and/or focus fire.
Tactics wise, it depends on the group of enemies. I try to make the enemies act as close as possible to how they would act according to their description/lore. This makes it a little more realistic and also gives variety to the battles which makes it fun for both players and DM. So, while an orc on a mission from an unforgiving commander might fight to the death (because he knows the alternative), a monster encountered in the wild while hunting for food will likely run away once it becomes clear they are losing, or even if they take a couple big hits (predators know they need to be able to hunt to live, and an injured predator cannot hunt as well). Groups of enemies like kobolds work together to surround and attack foes, and would definitely focus fire on one character, especially if someone gets separated from the pack (I know you are way past kobolds in this campaign but the theory holds). Another example: I read somewhere that manticores prefer to eat humans over anything else, so when my group fought a manticore, he focused all attacks on the only human in the party with the attempt to knock him unconscious and fly away with him to kill and eat. Luckily my human bard survived the initial onslaught and had the invisibility spell, and was able to turn invisible and hide.
Also, I almost always have the enemies use their most powerful attacks/spells in the first round, because that is what makes the most tactical sense. The players know better than to hold back; why would the enemies be any different? Even with all of this, PCs are a lot more powerful that it seems, and if anything I usually have to add HP/additional enemies "on the fly" rather than hold back. This is especially true if the PCs only have a few encounters per day and know they can go nova. The closest I came to a TPK with my current party of 3 level 4 PCs was when I gave an enemy an extra level 3 spell slot it wasn't supposed to have (party does not have lv 3 spells yet), and the party was lined up perfectly to all 3 be hit by the lightning blot, and 2 of 3 had just taken a lightning bolt last round, and all 3 failed their dex saves. Even then, one of them survived and was able to administer a healing potion next turn to the paladin, who then used lay on hands, and they ended up with a close and memorable victory.
Also check out www.themonstersknow.com for some really good ideas along these lines.
EDIT: In many situations it would definitely make sense for an enemy to attack a PC who is still fighting rather than waste a turn trying to kill a fallen PC who is no longer a threat; for this reason I usually don't have enemies attempt to kill a fallen PC unless there is a specific reason to do so.
The easy way to adjust prewritten encounters for a powerful party is: double them. Either use two full copies of the encounter, or add a second level-appropriate encounter to the first.
It's a pretty good use of an action for a monster with multiattack to attack a downed PC twice, killing him outright, rather than letting someone cast Healing Word on him, though it's better if you can just kill them with collateral damage.
Use the AL formula
Party Composition Party Strength 3-4 characters, APL less than Very weak
3-4 characters, APL equivalent Weak, 3-4 characters, APL greater than Average
5 characters, APL less than Weak, 5 characters, APL equivalent Average
5 characters, APL greater than Strong, 6-7 characters, APL less than Average
6-7 characters, APL equivalent Strong, 6-7 characters, APL greater than Very strong
Party Composition Party Strength 3-4 characters, APL less than Very weak
3-4 characters, APL equivalent Weak, 3-4 characters, APL greater than Average
5 characters, APL less than Weak, 5 characters, APL equivalent Average
5 characters, APL greater than Strong, 6-7 characters, APL less than Average
6-7 characters, APL equivalent Strong, 6-7 characters, APL greater than Very strong
So your party will always be strong or very strong. Adventure League modules then suggest add monsters of the same time. Adding hit points. Or changing monsters out for higher CR monsters. Since I been running various book in AL style. I max out the hit points of all monsters. Then Add 2 monsters of the same type in the encounter. I also if the monsters are great than INT 10, no fire ball formation. Attack the wounded. Go for the mage etc.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
Tactics vary with the monster and their INT. If I do anything especially sneaky, mean and icky nasty. I just roll a d20 , if it not over the INT of monster. Then I would do some of the tactics you have suggested.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.